Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby __PG__ » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:33 pm

RonK wrote:It's been quite a few years since Toyota introduced just-in-time production methods, and they are widely understood and imitated. So manufacturers are now tightly integrated with their supply chain and large over-orders of components would be very rare.

More likely it's the component manfufacturers themselves (yes, Shimano et al) who are responsible, and this would also account for the plain packaging. Why wouldn't they sell a large quantity of components to Mr Wiggle, unpackaged to further reduce costs, when every item sold adds to the profitably of the production run?


If you speak to a local bike manufacturer he will liken Shimano to General Motors of the 1960s. A huge industrial conglomerate that create products with massive production runs that bears no resemblance to the stereotypical 'lean and mean' Japanese manufacturing companies.
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by BNA » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:39 pm

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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby mezla » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:39 pm

As long as LBSs keep offering terrible prices, smart people will keep shopping online. It's pretty simple really.

The mates rates thing is not a sustainable business model, nor an ethical one. It means a brand new cyclist wandering into a shop will basically be ripped off until they've been ripped off enough times to be regarded a "mate", and then they'll get good prices. That is obviously not ok. It's bad for the shops, and it's bad for cycling in Australia.

Cliques - not a good thing.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby MarkG » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:57 pm

mezla wrote:As long as LBSs keep offering terrible prices, smart people will keep shopping online. It's pretty simple really.

The mates rates thing is not a sustainable business model, nor an ethical one. It means a brand new cyclist wandering into a shop will basically be ripped off until they've been ripped off enough times to be regarded a "mate", and then they'll get good prices. That is obviously not ok. It's bad for the shops, and it's bad for cycling in Australia.

Cliques - not a good thing.


tell me how a bike store is offering 'terrible prices' if they're getting a rough deal from their supplier?

The prices for many items on line are unachievable by most Aussie bike shops and you seem hell bent on placing the entire blame at the feet of the shops.

No one is arguing that that there's some room for movement, and the bike stores are playing catch up with the advent of on line trading, but so is the majority of the retail sector.

You're also unwilling to take any one else's POV on board, you keep going on about the same 'mates rates BS' , and to assume that the shop is blatantly trying to rip people off who are new to the sport is pretty piss weak and untrue.

You've been riding for how long? how many people and mates do you know and have in the industry? by your own reckoning, probably none cos they are all money hungry crooks.

I have a lot of mates who own bike shops - none of them drive Porsches or BWMs and live in mansions by the sea.

They are all enthusiasts who certainly aren't doing it for the money.

99% of people on here got their start on a bike probably bought at a bike store (I know I did, and most the people I race with and TT with did also).

So we're all fools that got ripped off then?

A FWIW - I know I can go to any of my mate's shops for a tube if I've got a puncture, and they'll change my tyre, for free.

No doubt I spend money in there, but that's not the point - they could charge me for the tube, but they don't , cos I'll tell other's about them and they'll make money from a future sale.

Here's another example.

Northwave Evo SBS shoes - I purchased last year from a mate's shop - at cost price, for my birthday from my mate for $279 - that's the price he paid Orbea for them, whole sale.
They are selling RRP in his shop for $325 - so he makes $45 per pair, that's it.

Wiggle sell the same shoes for $240 - so retail price for that same shoe on line is $40 less whole sale in Australia.

Is that the bike shops fault?
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby Xplora » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:08 pm

mezla wrote:As long as LBSs keep offering terrible prices, smart people will keep shopping online. It's pretty simple really.

The mates rates thing is not a sustainable business model, nor an ethical one. It means a brand new cyclist wandering into a shop will basically be ripped off until they've been ripped off enough times to be regarded a "mate", and then they'll get good prices. That is obviously not ok. It's bad for the shops, and it's bad for cycling in Australia.

Cliques - not a good thing.

It is unethical for Coles to charge more than their RRP for certain people. The bike shop has their maximum price listed. That's the RRP.

You misunderstand the consumer protection laws. They set their price. They can charge what they like. They can't change that price in an upward direction. They could choose to discount 10% if you're Asian. That is their choice. Anyone is allowed to charge less for something. The ethics you are talking about, that's just ridiculous because it ignores the fluidity of the market environment, particularly for a small business. Is it unethical to offer a discount to loyalty card members? Charge more for using an Amex card?

Your arguments don't stand up to scrutiny.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby MarkG » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:11 pm

Xplora wrote:
mezla wrote:As long as LBSs keep offering terrible prices, smart people will keep shopping online. It's pretty simple really.

The mates rates thing is not a sustainable business model, nor an ethical one. It means a brand new cyclist wandering into a shop will basically be ripped off until they've been ripped off enough times to be regarded a "mate", and then they'll get good prices. That is obviously not ok. It's bad for the shops, and it's bad for cycling in Australia.

Cliques - not a good thing.

It is unethical for Coles to charge more than their RRP for certain people. The bike shop has their maximum price listed. That's the RRP.

You misunderstand the consumer protection laws. They set their price. They can charge what they like. They can't change that price in an upward direction. They could choose to discount 10% if you're Asian. That is their choice. Anyone is allowed to charge less for something. The ethics you are talking about, that's just ridiculous because it ignores the fluidity of the market environment, particularly for a small business. Is it unethical to offer a discount to loyalty card members? Charge more for using an Amex card?

Your arguments don't stand up to scrutiny.


Tru dat..!

Fuji bikes for example had a price of close to $3,000 RRP for their SST 1.0 frame in 2011 when I was enquiring on the price.
They actually said to me on an email something like 'RRP is a maximum price set by Fuji Bikes - but you will probably get a better price from one of our Fuji dealers'.
I got the frame for $2,200 from Committed Cycles in Perth.
Oceania Bikes (Fuji's Aussie distributor) got their fixed price percentage of that sale (probably about 80%) and then the bike shop got the rest.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby JustJames » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:55 pm

Xplora wrote:It is unethical for Coles to charge more than their RRP for certain people. The bike shop has their maximum price listed. That's the RRP.


Really?

I can think of two ways in which supermarkets do exactly this:

1. A loaf of bread in a Coles servo is not charged at the same price as in a Coles supermarket.
2. If you join up for the relevant card at Woolies you get cheaper prices on certain items.

It's called market segmentation and it's far from unheard of. In the first example, people who need a loaf of bread right now are paying for the privilege. In the second, people who take the time to establish a relationship with the retailer get lower prices (sound familiar?).

If you run a business, you make darn' sure that regular customers know that they are valued. Preferential pricing is one way of doing it, but there are others.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby Xplora » Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:41 pm

JustJames wrote:Really?

Agree with everything you said - just the point about the servo bread; the price is set at the venue unless they have advertised otherwise. Either way, the retailer and the consumer are not forced to deal with each other. They can all do as they choose. Mezla doesn't appear to understand that. My comment about the ethics was simply that you can't be racist and charge extra to black people - you have a price, and can choose to discount if you like.

All good.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby __PG__ » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:44 am

Coles charge different prices in its supermarkets that are a few kilometers apart. Go and price check a Coles which has an Aldi within walking distance versus a Coles in an affluent suburb with no major competition.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby __PG__ » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:47 am

Having said all this I've just bought two components on line (rear cluster and a set of skewers).

Your LBS can't compete with the variety of stock that is available on line. What I do buy at my LBS is
a) Consumables that I need today (i.e. lube)
b) Clothing that is better to be tried on
c) Electronic items to get domestic warranty support.

I've found that items c) are often the same price here as they are online...which means the LBS is probably buying direct from the company itself.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby jasonc » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:54 am

__PG__ wrote:Having said all this I've just bought two components on line (rear cluster and a set of skewers).

Your LBS can't compete with the variety of stock that is available on line. What I do buy at my LBS is
a) Consumables that I need today (i.e. lube)
b) Clothing that is better to be tried on
c) Electronic items to get domestic warranty support.

I've found that items c) are often the same price here as they are online...which means the LBS is probably buying direct from the company itself.


I agree on a & c. c specifically - I bought my garmin from cecil walker in Melbourne earlier this year for a very competitive price.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby mezla » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:26 pm

mezla wrote:As long as LBSs keep offering terrible prices


Geez guys... try not to read in meaning that isn't there. Nothing in the text above implies that I think it is the LBSs fault, so maybe take a chill pill and stop carrying on like the proverbials chooks. Fact is, LBS prices in Australia are very high... and that leads to another fact: people will keep shopping on overseas online stores. It's a pretty simple and unassailable observation, and it includes no allocation of blame.

My comments about mates rates still stand though.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby __PG__ » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:11 pm

jasonc wrote:I agree on a & c. c specifically - I bought my garmin from cecil walker in Melbourne earlier this year for a very competitive price.

Yes and their prices on lights (Light & Motion Urban 500 in particular) were great.

I forgot d) Servicing. Most of the servicing I do myself but I got my hubs and headset regreased recently.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby RonK » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:25 pm

mezla wrote:
mezla wrote:As long as LBSs keep offering terrible prices


Geez guys... try not to read in meaning that isn't there. Nothing in the text above implies that I think it is the LBSs fault, so maybe take a chill pill and stop carrying on like the proverbials chooks. Fact is, LBS prices in Australia are very high... and that leads to another fact: people will keep shopping on overseas online stores. It's a pretty simple and unassailable observation, and it includes no allocation of blame.

My comments about mates rates still stand though.

Yeah, I got it mezla, don't let it bother you.

Whilst it's understandable that shops will reward loyal customers, some incentive is in order if they want to win new customers as well. Insisting new customers pay the MSRP isn't going to win much business...
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby orbeas » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:37 pm

ldrcycles wrote:Another example, i was looking at Shimano RS80 C24 wheels and when i got some tool from a LBS (probably a crank extractor or something, those sorts of things there's hardly any difference in price) i asked if they could get them and at what price. After a few minutes out the back the bloke said "a bit over $1,000".
I got a set on ebay from a seller in victoria, brand new for $410.


Just as an aside, re knicks and jerseys, i reckon cell are the bomb, great quality and crazy cheap.


I bought the RS80's c24 last week from crc $445... nice wheels ect accept the front hub needs regreasing as i dont think they put enough in when assembling..did you notice this?
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby ldrcycles » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:49 pm

No mine were fine?
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby jcjordan » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:14 pm

Ross wrote:
Oxford wrote:its not that they cannot do grey importing, its that if Shimano find out, they will cut off their domestic supply of the entire Shimano catalogue. then the LBS is left having to get all Shimano product from O/S which is not always possible.


I don't understand the problem. There have been numerous stories on here and I've heard it first hand from people who work in bike stores that Shimano Australia are hopeless with supply so why don't the LBS' tell Shimano to ge their act together or they will start buying from Wiggle et al. I find it hard to believe that there would be a product that you couldn''t get at one of the online retailers. As far as warranty goes, if a part or bike fails or is faulty, you take a photo and email it the supplier and most times they'll tell the LBS to chuck it out and they'll send a new one straight away (usually to arrive within the week). Seems like a win/win situation to me for LBS.



The warranty problem is the big one. Most warrenties do not transfer. So if the shop buys an item to put on your bike then the cost of warranty is the shops. Including any liabilities

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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby sb944 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:38 pm

The information available on the internet far surpasses a salespersons knowledge. I can see what stacks of other people thought of the product. I can shop any hour I want. I don't have to haggle with anyone or visit multiple shops to get the best prices.

Why do I need a shop front again?
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby darkhorse75 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:51 pm

MarkG wrote:
Here's another example.

Northwave Evo SBS shoes - I purchased last year from a mate's shop - at cost price, for my birthday from my mate for $279 - that's the price he paid Orbea for them, whole sale.
They are selling RRP in his shop for $325 - so he makes $45 per pair, that's it.

Wiggle sell the same shoes for $240 - so retail price for that same shoe on line is $40 less whole sale in Australia.

Is that the bike shops fault?


Whats stopping a bike shop ordering stock from an online overseas retailer, if they add their margin of $45 to the cost of these shoes they would be roughly the same as the wholesale australian cost. If you stop feeding the middlemen hopefully the marketplace will become more open.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby scotto » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:54 pm

ridiculous prices !!
just back from the LBS in Castle Hill where i NEEDED tube for tonight and couldnt wait for the $4.95 conti ones on order from Cell.
$15 for a tube (Tioga branded, 80mm valve). i just held me breath, counted to ten and said thanks...
at least i can ride tonight !!
thank the good lord for online shopping.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby orbeas » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:05 pm

ldrcycles wrote:No mine were fine?

the front hub feels bit rough...
Im going to inspect the amount of grease in the hub and check the rear...
other than that their fine wheel set 8)
Last edited by orbeas on Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby __PG__ » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:25 pm

sb944 wrote:The information available on the internet far surpasses a salespersons knowledge. I can see what stacks of other people thought of the product. I can shop any hour I want. I don't have to haggle with anyone or visit multiple shops to get the best prices.

Ah, that's another thing. A good LBS will give you great advice and will have decades of accumulated knowledge. Obviously a bad one won't!
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby RonK » Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:23 pm

__PG__ wrote:If you speak to a local bike manufacturer he will liken Shimano to General Motors of the 1960s. A huge industrial conglomerate that create products with massive production runs that bears no resemblance to the stereotypical 'lean and mean' Japanese manufacturing companies.

Which backs up my contention that it is in fact Shimano that is dumping OEM product on the market, and not over-ordering bike manufacturers as the Cycling IQ series asserts.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby Ross » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:04 pm

jcjordan wrote:
Ross wrote:
Oxford wrote:its not that they cannot do grey importing, its that if Shimano find out, they will cut off their domestic supply of the entire Shimano catalogue. then the LBS is left having to get all Shimano product from O/S which is not always possible.


I don't understand the problem. There have been numerous stories on here and I've heard it first hand from people who work in bike stores that Shimano Australia are hopeless with supply so why don't the LBS' tell Shimano to ge their act together or they will start buying from Wiggle et al. I find it hard to believe that there would be a product that you couldn''t get at one of the online retailers. As far as warranty goes, if a part or bike fails or is faulty, you take a photo and email it the supplier and most times they'll tell the LBS to chuck it out and they'll send a new one straight away (usually to arrive within the week). Seems like a win/win situation to me for LBS.



The warranty problem is the big one. Most warrenties do not transfer. So if the shop buys an item to put on your bike then the cost of warranty is the shops. Including any liabilities

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710a using Tapatalk 2


So if if I buy a bike or a part from the LBS and it breaks or has some fault I take it back there and they in turn contact Wiggle/PBK/CRC and say product is broken/faulty and they either ask for part back (rarely) and send out a new one. Pretty similar to what happens now I would of thought.

I waited 3 months before I got a replacement warranty frame recently from LBS. Partially my fault (the delay) as I wasn't very pro-active in chasing it as I had another bike to ride and the LBS is on other side of town. Initially the manufacturer knocked back the claim but the distribtor/wholesaler honoured the warranty in the end.
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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby DavidS » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:18 pm

Warranty is a bit of a non-issue when parts are generally reliable and you can buy something for less than half the price. Let's face it, when you can afford 2 online for less than the price of one locally why is warranty an issue?

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Re: Ridiculous Prices (rant thread)

Postby Marty Moose » Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:49 am

orbeas wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:Another example, i was looking at Shimano RS80 C24 wheels and when i got some tool from a LBS (probably a crank extractor or something, those sorts of things there's hardly any difference in price) i asked if they could get them and at what price. After a few minutes out the back the bloke said "a bit over $1,000".
I got a set on ebay from a seller in victoria, brand new for $410.


Just as an aside, re knicks and jerseys, i reckon cell are the bomb, great quality and crazy cheap.


I bought the RS80's c24 last week from crc $445... nice wheels ect accept the front hub needs regreasing as i dont think they put enough in when assembling..did you notice this?

They need adjusting from new they are too tight.Once this is done they are as smooth as silk.

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