No Compression Washer, is it safe??

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No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby baralah » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:42 am

I cut the steer tube too short to instal the compression washer/headset cover. Is it safe to ride the bike without it? So the current setup is only top bearing and stem, no spacer and no cover.

Thanks for the info in advance.
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by BNA » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:50 am

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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby gururug » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:50 am

It's risky. Do-able in some cases....... but very risky. What material is the shaft.?
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby JustJames » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:54 am

If I understand correctly, you aren't preloading the headset bearings (because you don't have the cap screwed into compression bung).

In which case your bike won't spontaneously disassemble itself, but your headset bearings are likely to wear faster than they should.

You should be able to use a longer bolt in the cap.

If your steerer tube is cut so short that only one stem bolt is clamping it, you prolly shouldn't ride it.
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby ZepinAtor » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:13 am

The compression washer or "top cap" is the very last item to go onto the assembly & doesn't sound like the component you're talking about. It wouldn't matter how short your steerer is as the top cap would be able to be attached with a longer bolt.

Are you referring to the top of your headset below your stem ? Is there enough height in your steerer tube to at least reach within 3mm of the top of your stem clamp area ? I wouldn't ride a bike with only one stem bolt holding on to the top of a fork.

As for the top of your headset not being installed (if that's the case) I wouldn't ride a bike like that either as it may have back & forth play depending on the setup & type of headset. Some headsets have small internal sleeve that pushes down under the top cap of the headset holding the fork in place. If your stem was to push down onto this it might be ok, although you'd risk having an open bearing facing you & filling full of dirt/grit.

A photo would help. Promise I won't laugh, we've probably all munted something on our bikes at some stage.
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby ozdavo » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:23 am

What frame/headset type do you have? I'm surprised the headset isn't rubbing on the upper bearing race. What part of the bearing is the stem pressed against?
I'd be looking to find or MacGyver an ultra low profile bearing cap... Like:
http://metallicpoutine.com/headset-bear ... ers/v-1-1/
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby baralah » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:35 am

ZepinAtor wrote:Are you referring to the top of your headset below your stem ? Is there enough height in your steerer tube to at least reach within 3mm of the top of your stem clamp area ? I wouldn't ride a bike with only one stem bolt holding on to the top of a fork.


Zep and JustJames, you got it right. It's the cover just below the stem (covering the top bearing). Without it, the two bolts are holding the carbon steer tube. Currently there's no play and very solid feeling. Thanks
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby ZepinAtor » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:45 am

baralah wrote:
ZepinAtor wrote:Are you referring to the top of your headset below your stem ? Is there enough height in your steerer tube to at least reach within 3mm of the top of your stem clamp area ? I wouldn't ride a bike with only one stem bolt holding on to the top of a fork.


Zep and JustJames, you got it right. It's the cover just below the stem (covering the top bearing). Without it, the two bolts are holding the carbon steer tube. Currently there's no play and very solid feeling. Thanks


Ok now that we've established that other things come into play. Some headsets rely on the top cover to apply pressure on the correct part of the bearing. The shape of the base of your stem could load pressure un-evenly on the bearing causing shudder at speed under heavy braking. If you're lucky the base of your stem is contacting the raised outer edge of the bearing cartridge & keeping everything snugly in place. Not ideal by any means.
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby baralah » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:16 am

baralah wrote: If you're lucky the base of your stem is contacting the raised outer edge of the bearing cartridge & keeping everything snugly in place

my 3T LTD stem isn't wide enough to cover the outer edge of the bearing cartridge :(

ozdavo wrote:I'd be looking to find or MacGyver an ultra low profile bearing cap... Like:
http://metallicpoutine.com/headset-bear ... ers/v-1-1/


Thanks Ozdavo, I may need to get that cap to protect my bearing from the external element.
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:10 pm

I'm not totally clear on the issue from your description without pictures, I will say this though.

If the top of the steerer is below the top of the stem most likely the fork manufacturer would recommend replacing the fork. It maybe possible to find a stem that isn't as long in the clamping area to help over-come your issue.

Most manufacturers these days are recommending 5-10mm of steerer should be sticking out past the top of the stem. I have seen the steerer's split from not doing this, failure always results in a serious crash.
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby JustJames » Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:32 pm

Deon, with leaving steerer tube protruding past the stem, would you then use one or more spacers to extend 2-3mm above the steerer tube so that the headset bearings can be pre-tensioned?
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby baralah » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:39 pm

Pics attached, thanks

Image
Image
Image
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby ZepinAtor » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:30 pm

Soon to be seen................WTB-SYD-New 3T fork.

Sorry Baralah, but that fork has only one place & that's on a smaller frame.
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby baralah » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:32 pm

Sorry for my ignorant. Is below headset external cup or internal, I can't find any information from the spec? The picture looks like it's external. If it is external, I may have a solution since the total stack is only 12mm.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cane-creek-40-series-zerostack-1-18-inch-headset/
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby ZepinAtor » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:43 pm

Looks like an external cup type which may "just" save you.

Have you thought about selling your fork & buying another ? They aren't that expensive in the scheme of things.
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby baralah » Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:58 pm

ZepinAtor wrote:Have you thought about selling your fork & buying another ? They aren't that expensive in the scheme of things.

I really like the current colour scheme, selling it is my very last option
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:11 pm

JustJames wrote:Deon, with leaving steerer tube protruding past the stem, would you then use one or more spacers to extend 2-3mm above the steerer tube so that the headset bearings can be pre-tensioned?


Yes thats correct, you need spacers on top of the stem - the spacers need to be around 2.5mm higher than the steerer tube otherwise the top cap will bottom out and you won't get any tension on the headset.

If you have an alloy steerer, its stafe to cut them off approx 2.5mm below the top of the stem but this is no longer considered safe with a carbon steerer by any fork manufacturer that I know of.
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:30 pm

baralah wrote:Sorry for my ignorant. Is below headset external cup or internal, I can't find any information from the spec? The picture looks like it's external. If it is external, I may have a solution since the total stack is only 12mm.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cane-creek-40-series-zerostack-1-18-inch-headset/


I don't know much about cane creek headsets - if that'll fit your bike you can measure up what you've got and work out what you would gain by the lower stack headset.

Your stem looks like its one of the deeper ones so you should be able to find one that isn't has high to gain a few more mm.

Its going to be pretty tight.

Its a bit late to tell you this now but when we cut them, we fully assemble the fork in the bike with the headset, stem, spacers etc - then we mark it. This way there is zero chance of making a mistake.
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:09 pm

New fork time mate. I really doubt the inside of the headtube will be correctly machined to accept a zero stack headset.

Check out THIS greater detail with plenty of pics.
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby baralah » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:09 am

Mulger bill wrote:New fork time mate. I really doubt the inside of the headtube will be correctly machined to accept a zero stack headset.


thanks boys, new fork it is
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby twizzle » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:27 am

baralah wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:New fork time mate. I really doubt the inside of the headtube will be correctly machined to accept a zero stack headset.


thanks boys, new fork it is


If it's an alloy steerer (can't see the pics at work :( ), GripSport can lengthen it, but it will cost around $170 and take a few weeks. I did this on a cross fork, a new fork would have been at least $250, so it was the cheaper option.
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:05 pm

twizzle wrote:
baralah wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:New fork time mate. I really doubt the inside of the headtube will be correctly machined to accept a zero stack headset.


thanks boys, new fork it is


If it's an alloy steerer (can't see the pics at work :( ), GripSport can lengthen it, but it will cost around $170 and take a few weeks. I did this on a cross fork, a new fork would have been at least $250, so it was the cheaper option.


I've had them do one as well, they did a reasonable job. It wasn't as neat as I'd have liked but the repair was well engineered, my only real critism is that the fork came back significantly heavier than standard - it felt like they'd filled it with lead.

I have no doubt that what they do would make it stronger than the origional fork but the weight was a killer for me and I wouldn't do it again.
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Re: No Compression Washer, is it safe??

Postby baralah » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:14 pm

twizzle wrote:If it's an alloy steerer (can't see the pics at work ), GripSport can lengthen it, but it will cost around $170 and take a few weeks. I did this on a cross fork, a new fork would have been at least $250, so it was the cheaper option.


No go in my case, it's full carbon steerer. I already swapped the fork with LOOK HSC5sl. No longer 3T theme, but the LOOK is definitely a lighter fork and pretty stiff as well.
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