I hope, I hope he didn't dope

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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby JustJames » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:24 pm

liamb wrote:Apparently there is huge money out there for rouge development scientists to use their findings or accidental findings.


Those darn' cosmetic companies!

I always knew Wiggo's sideburns had to be fake.
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by BNA » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:35 pm

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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby Baldy » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:35 pm

Why only he?

What about Voss? who I admire a lot and love to watch race. or Arnt who I also admire.

And Meares? Oh no she is an Australian woman so is a protected species going on recent events.
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby whitey » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:47 pm

It's already happened for me. Captain America was the guy I hoped hadn't done it :(
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby Undertow » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:22 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Undertow wrote:
liamb wrote:Apparently there is huge money out there for rouge development scientists to use their findings or accidental findings.


So the commies are to blame?


Where there is professional sport or even motorsports, there will be people looking to push the edge all over the world. The will to win, and the pressure to win will make that happen, the huge money is force for that. Ayrton Senna, the infamous but legendary Brazilian racing driver characterised it very well in an interview with Sir Jackie Stewart:

Ayrton Senna da Silva wrote:Being a racing driver means you are racing with other people and if you no longer go for a gap that exists you are no longer a racing driver - because we are competing, we are competing to win and the main motivation to all of us is to compete for a victory. It's not to come third, fourth, fifth or sixth. Right?


For full effect, you need to see the interview itself, with Senna saying that completely seriously, straight-faced and with absolute conviction.

And you'd have to admit, he's right, isn't he? That's the way it is in sports, no prizes for second - people only care about wins. Be it gold medals, TdF wins, or P1 in a motor-race. That's the way it is and it always will be, regardless of how much people try to clean things up, or in motorsports, regulate development.



WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!


For the slow, liamb said 'rouge development scientists' instead of of 'rogue development scientists', a common spelling mistake. However rouge happens to be french for red, the colour commonly associated with communists, and communist countries have a history of doping programs. And now I've ruined my joke by explaining it, but i suppose that's okay because no-one got it anyway.
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby Baldy » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:35 pm

whitey wrote:It's already happened for me. Captain America was the guy I hoped hadn't done it :(


The only thing we can console ourselves with whitey is we were not alone.

I hoped he didn't do it but of course there was always chance he did. But when the tests don't work that applies to everyone.

I really feel for the fans who lived through that era from the 90's to 06/07? I got into bikes in 2009, before that it was just not on my radar[apart from MTB in the 90s but zero interest in road. You were still one or the other back then!]. So I have nothing to look back on personally just what I read. So its not the same.

I'll always have faith in the new gen athletes like Durbo,Goss and co. I'm an Atheist with blind faith :mrgreen:
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby RonK » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:09 pm

g-boaf wrote:
liamb wrote:I would hate to think a team like Sky who basically shut the race down by using the whole team to ride everyone else into the ground in the TDF were using something that cant be tested for or worse still BMC, Orica Green Edge, etc.

Bill

Certainly hope they weren't... But the whole thing taints the sport badly and all the riders are suspected by the general public. If the Sky team was caught out, it'd destroy the reputation of cycling for a very long time.

I follow the Slipstream Sports team which is supposedly clean - I guess I'd be pretty disappointed if they weren't. They have some in the team who were formerly done for doping, Millar, Vaughters, etc. It was the documentary Blood, Sweat + Gears about that team that initially got me interested in this great sport.

Well, it's interesting to see the other players now are forced to deny - Sean Yates, Sky's DS at the TdF this year and also at Discovery for four years, says he knows nothing, just like Schultz. Seems difficult to believe given the evidence presented by the USADA.

As for the sanctimonious Vaughters and the equally sanctimonious but potty-mouthed to boot Millar (must be a Brit thing), as Shakespeare said, methinks they protest too much. I don't believe them and don't think they should have a place in the pro peleton.

And surely this evidence must bring into question the future of the Australians who have been USPS teams members, such as Matt White, now an Orica-GreenEdge DS, and sacked by Slipstream when it become public he had referred Trent Lowe the one USPS' dodgy doctors.
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby Parker » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:31 pm

Kids are great. That's one of the best things about our business, all the kids you get to meet. It's a shame they have to grow up to be regular people and come to the games and call you names.
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I'm not a role model... Just because I dunk a basketball doesn't mean I should raise your kids.
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I love Jens, dont care if he doped, I love lance, and I still don't care, I love Nike, still gonna buy their gear.

You've gotta ride your bike for 21 days in the Tour de France, it's a hard race, cycling is hard, it's not like Ironman where you race for one day, you race every day, you get hit buy a car and go into barbed wire but you still get back on your bike and finish the stage... you finish the tour. If someone said, "Row, your good enough to race the tour de france with the boys but you'd need to take some gear to finish, are you in?" I'm in.

As for Marianne Vos, she's been described as a very smart tactician and I would be very suprised if she doped (and crushed).
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby Chuck » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:16 pm

Parker wrote:I love lance, and I still don't care



As for Marianne Vos, she's been described as a very smart tactician and I would be very suprised if she doped (and crushed).


Why the double standard ?
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby Parker » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:22 pm

Chuck wrote:
Parker wrote:I love lance, and I still don't care



As for Marianne Vos, she's been described as a very smart tactician and I would be very suprised if she doped (and crushed).


Why the double standard ?

I dunno, I was wondering that myself when I wrote it, both Lance and Marianne do an incredible amount for charity, possibly because Marianne is a girl and I'm a girl. It would make sense that I would look to Marianne as more of a role model than Lance, but that being said, I try not to use sports people as role models, they have a tendancy to be very unreliable.

Mother Teresa on the other hand.
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby Chuck » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:39 pm

Parker wrote:
Chuck wrote:
Parker wrote:I love lance, and I still don't care



As for Marianne Vos, she's been described as a very smart tactician and I would be very suprised if she doped (and crushed).


Why the double standard ?

I dunno, I was wondering that myself when I wrote it, both Lance and Marianne do an incredible amount for charity, possibly because Marianne is a girl and I'm a girl. It would make sense that I would look to Marianne as more of a role model than Lance, but that being said, I try not to use sports people as role models, they have a tendancy to be very unreliable.


I guess if I didn't view Livestrong as self serving and if the hundreds of millions of dollars being raised were being put towards cancer research then I could perhaps understand your sentiments ?

The other point is I know you're passionate about cycling, you actually write about it, women in cycling, young up and comers in cycling and so on. Guys like Dave Zabriskie, Christian Vande Velde and Tom Danielson were only young men when they were coerced by Armstrong and Bruyneel to dope. Are you comfortable with that ? Would you be comfortable with them still being involved in cycling and developing young cyclists ?

BTW I would share your expressed sentiment were it to be ever found that Vos doped.
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby Marty Moose » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:40 pm

Parker wrote:I love lance, and I dont care


What about the Clean riders who got dropped and time limited out of the tour or worse still lost their job because others were cheating scum????


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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:40 pm

Parker wrote:Mother Teresa on the other hand.


Love those Nuns... :lol:
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby Parker » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:23 pm

Marty Moose wrote:
Parker wrote:I love lance, and I dont care


What about the Clean riders who got dropped and time limited out of the tour or worse still lost their job because others were cheating scum????


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I want to be bothered by it but I'm not, and let's face it, those tour's were exciting weren't they, much more exciting than the last tour...
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby Parker » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:39 pm

Chuck wrote:
Parker wrote:
Chuck wrote:
Why the double standard ?

I dunno, I was wondering that myself when I wrote it, both Lance and Marianne do an incredible amount for charity, possibly because Marianne is a girl and I'm a girl. It would make sense that I would look to Marianne as more of a role model than Lance, but that being said, I try not to use sports people as role models, they have a tendancy to be very unreliable.


I guess if I didn't view Livestrong as self serving and if the hundreds of millions of dollars being raised were being put towards cancer research then I could perhaps understand your sentiments ?

The other point is I know you're passionate about cycling, you actually write about it, women in cycling, young up and comers in cycling and so on. Guys like Dave Zabriskie, Christian Vande Velde and Tom Danielson were only young men when they were coerced by Armstrong and Bruyneel to dope. Are you comfortable with that ? Would you be comfortable with them still being involved in cycling and developing young cyclists ?

BTW I would share your expressed sentiment were it to be ever found that Vos doped.

I'm not so passionate about cycling anymore, SheRides Cycling has ended for a lot of different reasons, I'm still going to ride my bike don't get me wrong. The conversations that I've been involved in over the last 6 months have made me loose that passion. People want to dope, people at club level want to dope and it's not because Lance doped, if it was because he did it then I'd have a big problem with him, but they want to dope because this is it for them, they have nothing else.

I think the new era of a clean peloton is important, I don't think it will ever be clean due to the advances in technology and people's want to win, their NEED to win, they're hungry for it and they know how to sacrifice everything to win. If it was me in the peloton, I'd be happy being a work horse, but, not everyone is geared that way.

Am I comfortable with young men being coerced into doping? We know the difference between right and wrong from the time that we're 13 (is that right? by law), I new when I was 14 that smoking was bad, but I did it, nobody forced me into trying it, plenty of the friends who surrounded me didn't smoke. Young men want to win, they were 'only' young men begins to insinuate that they have no ability to think, the peloton know's which teams are clean, the peloton know's which DS's are dirty, I wouldn't be fooled by a rider saying, "I didn't know."

There's a triathlon coach out there who had a relationship with a 'child' back in the day, forget the name, he currently coaches Caroline Steffan and many other great Ironman Athletes including Chrissy Wellington at one point, he nevers lives that stigma down, yet he still produces champions, I don't have a problem that he still works as a triathlon coach.

So no, I don't have a problem with the fact that those who dope are still involved in the industry, the industry is small in comparison to other sports, transparancy on the otherhand would be of the upmost importance in that situation, especially moving forward with this wonderful view of a clean peloton.
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby ldrcycles » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:54 pm

After reading the Tyler Hamilton book, and reading a few articles about the difference doping makes, i am struggling to believe that the sport is clean or ever will be, and that feeling sucks. I love racing and pushing myself as hard as i can but if someone gave me a choice of dope or don't race i would tell them exactly where to go, no questions. It's a matter of principles. I just really hope i don't ever have to be in that position.
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby RonK » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:28 pm

Parker wrote:If someone said, "Row, your good enough to race the tour de france with the boys but you'd need to take some gear to finish, are you in?" I'm in.


I guess that means you'll also be happy to wear the tag and be known as a "drug cheat" then?
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby Parker » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:36 pm

RonK wrote:
Parker wrote:If someone said, "Row, your good enough to race the tour de france with the boys but you'd need to take some gear to finish, are you in?" I'm in.


I guess that means you'll also be happy to wear the tag and be known as a "drug cheat" then?

Not happily, but I'd wear it if it made you feel better, I believe that we make our OWN beds, through our own choices.

Everyone has the right to make the choice to walk away.
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby Parker » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:43 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
Parker wrote:Mother Teresa on the other hand.


Love those Nuns... :lol:

Love it, I've been waiting to look at that for ages!
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby biker jk » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:10 pm

Parker wrote:
Marty Moose wrote:
Parker wrote:I love lance, and I dont care


What about the Clean riders who got dropped and time limited out of the tour or worse still lost their job because others were cheating scum????


Sent from my MB526 using Tapatalk 2

I want to be bothered by it but I'm not, and let's face it, those tour's were exciting weren't they, much more exciting than the last tour...


Well no, the LA TdF "wins" weren't more exciting than this year's TdF. Six of the seven "wins" by LA were a slaughter (i.e. snoozefest) with the margin to second place being 4 min 40 sec in one case and at least six minutes in the other five. There was only one close TdF in the Armstrong era with a winning margin of a minute. Indeed, this year's win by Wiggins (by a margin of 3 min 21 sec) was slightly less boring than most of LA's "wins". The parellels between Team Sky and USPS are of course the total domination of the TdF, with Armstrong/Wiggins being led up mountains by a train of team mates.
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby Parker » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:11 pm

Ok
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby liquor box » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:43 pm

Howzat wrote:Cadel Evans

He certainly rides like he's clean. This year, he attempted a dramatic attack in the mountains of the TdF, but his legs gave out 250m later, and Team Sky caught and powered past him without even getting out of their saddles.

That sounds reasonable to me, but please explain the year before when he rode without help after his chain fouled and chased Schleck.

Unfortunately Evans is at the top of my list of suspects, this hurts as he is also one of my favourites
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:41 am

liquor box wrote:Unfortunately Evans is at the top of my list of suspects, this hurts as he is also one of my favourites


Care to explain yourself better here?????? :?

His prep this year was nowhere near as good last years. For a start, there was the crash early in the year and gastro during the race and even
some of the commentators of the sport said the same.... his prep was not good enough and to broken in structure.

Just remind me of how old he is now and how much younger the majority of the other No1 riders were and the fact his team is/was not up to scratch. :|

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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby boss » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:19 am

yarravalleyplodder wrote:That's the way it is in sports, no prizes for second - people only care about wins.


Most people set appropriate goals for themselves when competing.

For some it might be starting and finishing.

For others it might be netting a better time than their last attempt.

For others it migt be top 50, 25, 10.

For a small few it will be aiming to win.

I guess what I'm getting at is that sport and competition, even at elite levels, isn't necessarily about winning for everyone. For many, it's simply about striving to be the best they can.

I'd also debate your assertion that there are no prizes for second... In many sports you do get a prize for second place! Although I do understand what you're trying to say...
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby liquor box » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:09 am

foo on patrol wrote:
liquor box wrote:Unfortunately Evans is at the top of my list of suspects, this hurts as he is also one of my favourites


Care to explain yourself better here?????? :?

His prep this year was nowhere near as good last years. For a start, there was the crash early in the year and gastro during the race and even
some of the commentators of the sport said the same.... his prep was not good enough and to broken in structure.

Just remind me of how old he is now and how much younger the majority of the other No1 riders were and the fact his team is/was not up to scratch. :|

Foo

To me his performances improved when he switched to BMC, this can be put down to a number of things, but it is also when he started to ride with Hincapie. Hincapie was an integral part of Armstrongs victories as well as part of a Contador victory as well.

Hincapie has admitted to doping as part of a systematic doping program but say he stopped this practice, but he would be somewhat of an expert on how to do it successfully and would be in a position to bring this knowledge to BMC.

Evans has had a history with Michelle Ferrari early in his career and this never looks good.

I think when it comes to Australians and doping you need to take off any patriotic glasses you may look through and ask yourself if this was a cyclist from another country who had the same performances would you become suspicious?

If a cyclist is almost good enough to be a winner in big races but is never quite good enough, and then joins up with a new team with an admitted doper who has a background of being in a doping program that was not caught out and produce 2 previous multiple champions and then he suddenly manages to win the big race then I look at it suspiciously.
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Re: I hope, I hope he didn't dope

Postby RonK » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:59 am

liquor box wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:
liquor box wrote:Unfortunately Evans is at the top of my list of suspects, this hurts as he is also one of my favourites


Care to explain yourself better here?????? :?

His prep this year was nowhere near as good last years. For a start, there was the crash early in the year and gastro during the race and even
some of the commentators of the sport said the same.... his prep was not good enough and to broken in structure.

Just remind me of how old he is now and how much younger the majority of the other No1 riders were and the fact his team is/was not up to scratch. :|

Foo

To me his performances improved when he switched to BMC, this can be put down to a number of things, but it is also when he started to ride with Hincapie. Hincapie was an integral part of Armstrongs victories as well as part of a Contador victory as well.

Hincapie has admitted to doping as part of a systematic doping program but say he stopped this practice, but he would be somewhat of an expert on how to do it successfully and would be in a position to bring this knowledge to BMC.

Evans has had a history with Michelle Ferrari early in his career and this never looks good.

I think when it comes to Australians and doping you need to take off any patriotic glasses you may look through and ask yourself if this was a cyclist from another country who had the same performances would you become suspicious?

If a cyclist is almost good enough to be a winner in big races but is never quite good enough, and then joins up with a new team with an admitted doper who has a background of being in a doping program that was not caught out and produce 2 previous multiple champions and then he suddenly manages to win the big race then I look at it suspiciously.

Ohhhhhhhh yes - and wasn't BMC formerly Team Phonak, of which the nortorious Floyd Landis was a member?
Gasp! I can't believe it, but it all stacks up now...CADEL EVANS IS A DRUG CHEAT.
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