25mm tyres = comfort

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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby Nobody » Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:04 pm

Yeah, I'm obviously brainless too as I just can't seem to work out why I'd want to get tubeless tyres with the roll down test results below.

Tire Distance(meters) Average Speed(Km/H) Maximum Speed (Km/H)
Michelin Pro4 Service Course w/ latex tube 200.05 21.35 34.20
Hutchinson Fusion 3 RT 195.63 21.28 33.54
Maxxis Padrone 194.03 21.26 33.54
Michelin Pro4 Service Course w/ butyl tube 193.99 20.68 33.18

http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/new ... s?page=0,1

Reasonable tyres with latex tubes will do me for now.
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by BNA » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:12 pm

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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby bosvit » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:12 pm

Comedian wrote:
hotshod wrote:
MREJ wrote:Tubeless - I admit I havent actually tried it, but I looked into it and it all sounds too hard. Stories about the goo needing cleaning up and replenishment, and that it either works and corrodes your rims, or actually doesn't work; still need to carry a tube in case of a flat, and then it's hard to get the tyre off; very limited range of tyres..



What a load of negative rubbish and misinformation...... before you can make any comment , you need to try tubeless , then report back , good,bad, or indifferent.
If you are a half competent idiot, you'll have no trouble managing the use of tubeless , if your IQ is below 65 stick with clinchers.

i must have an iq of like... 50 or something. Luckily I can add up real good though.

Hutchinson fusion tubeless weights 312gm each. Add 50 grams of sealant and say 20 for Tim tape and I'm up to 380 or so.

My ultremo zx is 190 plus 80 g for a lightish (not ultra lite) tube and I'm at 270, or over 100g per wheel. That's a lot of rotating mass.

My mate bought those and tried them. He doesn't use them anymore though so he must be a real dumb mech engineer. We did an event and his back punctured and sprayed the sealant everywhere.

Personally, while I think tubeless is great in mtb (I run tubeles there) I don't think the advantages are nearly as clear cut for road biking applications.

But then... As you've astutely noted its a wonder I'm able to breath and type this at the same time.... THUNK. :mrgreen:

You tell 'em Mr Amos

Me, I'm too busy trying to work out why there are only 47 matches in a match box and not 50 to worry about the massive hassle of running tubeless road tyres......

Mmmmm I love my Ultremo ZX's too!
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby bosvit » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:13 pm

Look I realise that I am in the sub 65 IQ range but Mr Amos are you running 23mm ZX's?
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby ldrcycles » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:46 pm

There is just no need for tubeless on a road bike, if you're getting punctures it's because your tires are not fit for purpose. Even on MTB i think tubeless is unnecessary, "it stops pinch flats" well when i was doing mtb i was around 90kgs and i never had a pinch flat, if you're getting pinch flats you should try running more than 5 pound.
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:58 pm

ldrcycles wrote:There is just no need for tubeless on a road bike, if you're getting punctures it's because your tires are not fit for purpose. Even on MTB i think tubeless is unnecessary, "it stops pinch flats" well when i was doing mtb i was around 90kgs and i never had a pinch flat, if you're getting pinch flats you should try running more than 5 pound.


Sorry mate... says more about your riding style... seriously who runs tubes in mtbs these days... and with good reason ( unless you are the top of the top running tubulars of course :P ).
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby ldrcycles » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:11 pm

Hahaha me and style in the same sentence :lol: . I switched to the road because my mtb 'skills' were abysmal, i was rough as guts.
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby Comedian » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:13 pm

bosvit wrote:Look I realise that I am in the sub 65 IQ range but Mr Amos are you running 23mm ZX's?


Gees... you are smarter than the average bear!

Yep, I'm running 23mm ultremo zx's. I'm experimenting with ultremo DD's on the back with a ZX on the front. That's working pretty well too. The ultremos are fast as, grip well, are quite puncture proof (for that type of tyre) and are cheap. What is not to like? :mrgreen:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby visrealm » Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:37 am

For me.. tubeless are great. Massive hassle? No. Other than the initial setup (rim tape). No hassle at all. Before tubeless I was flatting all the time.. it was ridiculous (mostly pinch flatting even at 125PSI).

Since tubeless, 1 flat in over 4000Km due to a piece of glass. No biggie, put in a tube (no different to tubed clinchers). Comfort.. Can't beat 90/100PSI.. Sure, I might get the same out of high quality tyres & tubes too, but when I was having the issue, decided to go tubeless and honestly they're fantastic.

I just don't get the claims that tubeless are a massive hassle.. they're not.. at all.
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby visrealm » Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:43 am

visrealm wrote:Can't beat 90/100PSI..


I realise for lighter riders, this is also possible with tubes. At 100Kg it most certainly is not.
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby Aushiker » Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:08 pm

For those interested in tubulars, I was looking at http://bike24.net and notice that they sell Tufo tyres including tubular tyres for clincher rims. Maybe a way to try out the idea of tubulars without a lot of the perceived hassle.

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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby il padrone » Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:59 pm

visrealm wrote:
visrealm wrote:Can't beat 90/100PSI..


I realise for lighter riders, this is also possible with tubes. At 100Kg it most certainly is not.

According to Sheldon Brown's tyre recommendations 110 psi is fine for a 50kg wheel load. At 100kg you'd load the rear wheel ~60kg and the front ~40kg, so maybe 120 psi for the rear and 90-100 would be fine for the front.

This is for 25mm tyres.
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby jacks1071 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:39 pm

visrealm wrote:
visrealm wrote:Can't beat 90/100PSI..


I realise for lighter riders, this is also possible with tubes. At 100Kg it most certainly is not.


Our tandem has 28mm gatorskins (with tubes) and we've run it at 100psi for thousands of kms - thats with approx 150kg on it.

The only pinch flat I've ever had was when I ran over a brick.
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby orbeas » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:30 am

open roader wrote:I'm finding quality 23mm and 24mm tubulars offer as much comfort if not more than the best 25mm clincher I tried........... very happy I switched to tubulars.... :D

Also instead of using vitoria glue on the tubulars im using selleys quik grip,100ml tube from the local selleys retailer $9 a tube..1/2 a tube does two tyers, apply using a narrow paint brush to spread the glue on the rim and tubular alow glue to get sticky apply tyer to rim..
24hrs ready to ride :D
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby visrealm » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:03 am

jacks1071 wrote:
visrealm wrote:
visrealm wrote:Can't beat 90/100PSI..


I realise for lighter riders, this is also possible with tubes. At 100Kg it most certainly is not.


Our tandem has 28mm gatorskins (with tubes) and we've run it at 100psi for thousands of kms - thats with approx 150kg on it.

The only pinch flat I've ever had was when I ran over a brick.


Agree - I definitely would have tried 25's or 28's if tubeless turned out to be rubbish.
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby hotshod » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:50 pm

visrealm wrote:For me.. tubeless are great. Massive hassle? No. Other than the initial setup (rim tape). No hassle at all. Before tubeless I was flatting all the time.. it was ridiculous (mostly pinch flatting even at 125PSI).

Since tubeless, 1 flat in over 4000Km due to a piece of glass. No biggie, put in a tube (no different to tubed clinchers). Comfort.. Can't beat 90/100PSI.. Sure, I might get the same out of high quality tyres & tubes too, but when I was having the issue, decided to go tubeless and honestly they're fantastic.

I just don't get the claims that tubeless are a massive hassle.. they're not.. at all.



It would appear that in this forum 1 person has tried tubeless, and think they are fabulous,good to hear from you "visrealm", yet there is a host of participants that have never tried them but have a very ill informed opinion as to how they perform.which is clearly incorrect.
From my reading of many forums about tubeless tyres, 90+% of the users swear they will never go back to regular HP clinchers, so that leaves 10% of folks who cant live with them for one reason or another. I'm guessing the most common problem is using a rim that is incompatible. My measure for what's compatible is you must to be able to fit a tyre by hand, in my own case I have 3 sets of wheels I can't get a Hutchinson Fusion 3 on, so be it ,they are old and definitely not made for tubeless.

So I would totally agree with "visrealm" setup is different , taping rims if your doing a conversion.If your operating on Tubeless Ready wheels its a piece of cake, probably easier than regular clincher,I would admit that if you have an air compressor its extremely easy to get the tubeless to bead and seal but not totally necessary.

I also totally agree with "visrealm" that the ride of tubeless is comfort ++, as I originally stated almost that of a tubular, which I used for many years, though the cost of using a high quality tubular can be hard to live with for day to day riding.
Next is puncture protection, my own experience, 7000 ks yet to have a flat, though I did enjoy sacrificing my Hutch F3 when it was worn out using an engineers scribe to repeatedly stab and puncture the tyre after 5 punctures that all sealed within 1 second, the tyre still had 80psi, only slashing it with a stanley knife caused the pressure to drop to 45psi the 6mm cut took about 2-3 sec to seal ..... quite remarkable , and the tyre was still ridable.
Then comes the safety aspect of using tubeless, using lower pressure give you greater cornering control , especially downhill at speed over broken surfaces. Plus if you were descending at full gas and you did get that front tyre flat/puncture /slash, these tyres will get you to the bottom without crashing with minimal air loss, compared to the clincher that would have parted from the rim at 70kph crashing is almost unavoidable.
If you mate up a new style tubeless rim with a tubeless tyre the technology is such the the tyre will not break the beading and can be ridden totally flat .... That makes this tyre extremely safe, no clincher setup can come close to that ,... tubular yes , clincher no.

I took notice of "Nobody" claims of rolling resistance ..... this test was totally unscientific and the tester made this point, so nothing can be claimed or gained by referring to such a whimsical testing methodology.

As for "Comedian", I do recall you lurking around the tubeless post, started by CoffsGal, at the time you were struggling with the concept, though most there who had used the tubeless were overwhelmingly positive. TTL was also there and provide go insight to the use of tubeless.
I should ask you add up the various components again.... Hutch F3..... 304g..... 30ml of Stans.....30g .... 2 layers tape (if required) ...6g. Certainly heavier than you current setup of Ultremos but not quite as much as you thought.

So my bottom line is tubeless will provide you with a great comfortable ride , increased safety , and possibly,probably a puncture free ride.....
But if you are mechanically challenged , and lacking an eye for detail it may best to stay away from tubeless and tubular tyres...... though the effort is rewarded with the experience.

This post is not intended to offend or inflame comments or passions ,......But please keep it real , if you have a good or bad experience with tubeless tell us all, not what a mate said or you read it somewhere, or the LBS reckons their crap , because its only your personal experience that means anything.....
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:15 pm

Tubeless provides comfort for similar reasons the wider tyres do, the ability to run lower pressures without risk of pinch flats.

If you run a 23mm tubless at the same pressure as a 23mm high pressure clincher using the same brand tyre - I highly doubt you will feel any difference in comfort.

I have run tubeless mainly to test compatibility with Pro-Lite wheels as people ask "do the rims work with tubeless" (they all do by the way).

For me, I didn't stick with Tubeless. I found the tyre's cut up too easy - some small holes self healed (which seemed to be happening very regularly, far more regularly than I would normal puncture so they were solving a problem that otherwise wouldn't have existed), bigger cuts sprayed me and anyone behind me in sealant which was really popular. 12 months later I was still finding bits of sealant bonded to my frame. For the roads I ride on (which are shockingly bad) I thought tubeless would be a dream but the tyres just were not tough enough. I get far better reliability using Vittoria Rubino or Zaffiro, or Continental Gatorskin or Vredestein TriComp Quattro.

If you read up on what makes a tyre "fast" one of the most important features is a compliant sidewall, something the tubless tyres I've used don't have. The side walls and the entire casing for that matter was very, very stiff to prevent the tyre from stretching and blowing off the rim.

I don't believe the tubeless tyre technology was there at the time I tested. This development is likely to be pretty slow as I believe hutchinson have a patent on "road tubeless" - as such you don't have any competition, development will always be slow when this happens. I havn't read up on the Hutchinson Fusion 3 - but the rolling resistance tests I've seen that included the Tubeless Fusion 2 had them fairing quite poorly compared to many other tyre/tube combo's.

I have run tubeless on my MTB and didn't stick with that either, I've run pressures as low as 20psi in MTB races when conditions turned ugly and have never had a pinch flat.

Different people however can have different experiences for various reasons, if what you find works for you, stick to it - tell people about it. Keep in mind though that lots of other people have things that work for them as well.

Someone around here put a post up to say how puncture proof their Michelin Pro Race 3's where! That comes as a huge surprise to me as I know a lot of people who'll tell you they are too puncture prone to use. Its working for him though, so stick to it. Someone suggested his tyres maybe well aged which could be why he is finding them to be durable?
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby Nobody » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:34 am

hotshod wrote:I took notice of "Nobody" claims of rolling resistance ..... this test was totally unscientific and the tester made this point, so nothing can be claimed or gained by referring to such a whimsical testing methodology.
There is a link to an old 2007 tyre test on the forums somewhere which showed GP4000 to be as fast as the tubeless tyre tested, so not the only piece of evidence around.

jacks1071 wrote:I have run tubeless on my MTB and didn't stick with that either, I've run pressures as low as 20psi in MTB races when conditions turned ugly and have never had a pinch flat.
I can also run my 2.2" Geax Saguaro tubed tyres at 20 psi on the front with no pinch flats. I'm ~80Kg.
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:56 am

Time you guys took your hands off the brakes on those rocky descents then :P .
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby Nobody » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:59 am

Nobody wrote:
Ross wrote:A lot of people that are "upgrading" to 25mm tyres and claiming a lot more comfort than 23mm are not doing a proper comparison. They are running a lower pressure in the 25mm tyres, of course it is going to be more comfortable! Run the same pressure in a 23mm and report back.
23s have less rim protection (less height) and more drag at the same pressure that you would typically run 25s.
Correction. Actually 23s should have more rolling drag at the same pressure, but 25s should have more aero drag. The difference between them in outright drag would be small IMO.
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby hotshod » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:34 am

jacks1071 wrote:Tubeless provides comfort for similar reasons the wider tyres do, the ability to run lower pressures without risk of pinch flats.

If you run a 23mm tubless at the same pressure as a 23mm high pressure clincher using the same brand tyre - I highly doubt you will feel any difference in comfort.

I have run tubeless mainly to test compatibility with Pro-Lite wheels as people ask "do the rims work with tubeless" (they all do by the way).

For me, I didn't stick with Tubeless. I found the tyre's cut up too easy - some small holes self healed (which seemed to be happening very regularly, far more regularly than I would normal puncture so they were solving a problem that otherwise wouldn't have existed), bigger cuts sprayed me and anyone behind me in sealant which was really popular.

For the roads I ride on (which are shockingly bad) I thought tubeless would be a dream but the tyres just were not tough enough.

If you read up on what makes a tyre "fast" one of the most important features is a compliant sidewall, something the tubless tyres I've used don't have. The side walls and the entire casing for that matter was very, very stiff to prevent the tyre from stretching and blowing off the rim.

I don't believe the tubeless tyre technology was there at the time I tested. This development is likely to be pretty slow as I believe hutchinson have a patent on "road tubeless" - as such you don't have any competition, development will always be slow when this happens. I havn't read up on the Hutchinson Fusion 3



I mostly agree with all that you say....
Being able to run at much lower pressures provides the comfort with out any chance of a pinch flat....... similar to tubulars.
I guess you wouldn't compare your clincher experience with that of tubulars.....
As for running tubeless at the same pressure as clinchers, there is no need to do that, BUT you can't run clinchers at the same pressure as tubeless for fear of snakebite.

It maybe time to revisit your tubeless experience , from what I read the Hutch Fusion 2 were notorious for cutting up, and the early version of the F3 likewise , but the current F3 is very robust tri compound with an extreme hard wearing centre strip. I saw no cuts on my now dead Fusion3 , I changed it when I had 3 or 4 canvas patches showing after 5100klms

I'm not sure about who has patent rights, if any on this technology. I know of 4 Manufactures , Hutchinson, Maxis, IRC, Bontrager(just released).... Plus others rebadge Hutchinson and while not yet available Michelin is already building and trialling them, so I'm sure within the next 2-3 years more will be available and at sub 240g like the IRC.

There is also a huge safety feature attached to using this technology ...... the ability to get to the bottom of a descent when a flat clincher would wrecked your ride.

I acknowledge there is resistance to this technology , but so far I have convinced 4 fellow riders from our regular Saturday ride to try them....... But only after I let them borrow wheels and give them the chance to run their own back to back tests.....On familiar gnarly roads for a week.
Biggest difficulty then was getting them to use less pressure..... starting at 100psi and gradually getting down to 70/80 combo. Now I don't suggest that these are race pressures,but they are pressures you can use on a daily basis.
Even using a 25mm tyre at at 80 psi you would be prone to a pinch flat...... not so tubeless.
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:35 pm

hotshod wrote:I mostly agree with all that you say....
Being able to run at much lower pressures provides the comfort with out any chance of a pinch flat....... similar to tubulars.
I guess you wouldn't compare your clincher experience with that of tubulars.....

As for running tubeless at the same pressure as clinchers, there is no need to do that, BUT you can't run clinchers at the same pressure as tubeless for fear of snakebite.

It maybe time to revisit your tubeless experience , from what I read the Hutch Fusion 2 were notorious for cutting up, and the early version of the F3 likewise , but the current F3 is very robust tri compound with an extreme hard wearing centre strip. I saw no cuts on my now dead Fusion3 , I changed it when I had 3 or 4 canvas patches showing after 5100klms

I'm not sure about who has patent rights, if any on this technology. I know of 4 Manufactures , Hutchinson, Maxis, IRC, Bontrager(just released).... Plus others rebadge Hutchinson and while not yet available Michelin is already building and trialling them, so I'm sure within the next 2-3 years more will be available and at sub 240g like the IRC.

There is also a huge safety feature attached to using this technology ...... the ability to get to the bottom of a descent when a flat clincher would wrecked your ride.

I acknowledge there is resistance to this technology , but so far I have convinced 4 fellow riders from our regular Saturday ride to try them....... But only after I let them borrow wheels and give them the chance to run their own back to back tests.....On familiar gnarly roads for a week.
Biggest difficulty then was getting them to use less pressure..... starting at 100psi and gradually getting down to 70/80 combo. Now I don't suggest that these are race pressures,but they are pressures you can use on a daily basis.
Even using a 25mm tyre at at 80 psi you would be prone to a pinch flat...... not so tubeless.


Tubulars are simply the best of the lot, remember tubular tyre technology has been around for many years and is well developed although not many people would want to train on them. Road tubless has a similar ride feel to tubular in terms of ride comfort but the tubular tyres are faster probably due to a better developed tyre with a more flexible sidewall.

I guess if you ran a tubular with sealant it'd give you similar puncture protection to tubeless. Would I want to run sealant in a brand new tubular? No, but a lot of people do, especially for Ironman type events.

When I did puncture with road tubless, I did have a slow deflation which is a safety benefit. Running sealant in your normal tubes would probably yeild a similar result though.

In terms of pressure 70/80 psi - yes you probably won't get pinch flats with your tubeless - slam into something hard enough and you'll potentially cut the tyre.

At low pressures you're asking for a dented/busted wheel if you hit a pot hole or road object. I wouldn't run less than 90 in them unless you are a feather weight. I was running 100F/110R and 90F/100R when For me 100psi with a 23mm tyre is getting marginal for rim protection regardless of the tyre technology.
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby MREJ » Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:34 pm

What are all these pinch flats that people are getting? I've done we'll over 5k pa during the last few years, all on clinchers, and I don't think I've ever had one.
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:37 pm

MREJ wrote:What are all these pinch flats that people are getting? I've done we'll over 5k pa during the last few years, all on clinchers, and I don't think I've ever had one.


You're doing it wrong!
You've gotta learn to not avoid potholes if you wanna pinch flat... :wink:
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby Bentnose » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:06 am

Anybody try tubeless on cyclocross tyres?
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Re: 25mm tyres = comfort

Postby Nobody » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:25 am

I believe TLL did (CX racing) but the results were less than ideal, so he went back to tubes. Last I read he was looking for latex tubes in that size (32mm from memory).
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