Things parents say why kids not riding to school

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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby DavidS » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:06 pm

Oxford wrote:
Comedian wrote:
Oxford wrote:]Out of curiosity I checked, I wouldn't actually get one unless I think I absolutely really needed it and I only use a car typically once a week anyway. Basically I didn't meet the rules for one and I hope I never do.


That's no good... makes it even more disappointing when able body people park in them.

Damn right, bugs the crap out of me when you see able bodied relatives parking in them using the disabled label without reason. Off course you never know if they are there to pick up the disabled person. I have seen someone take a shot at a driver parking in one only to be told rightly so by the driver that they were there to pick up the disabled person. That's why I say, don't be quick to judge. You just don't know.


There's also other possibilities. My father has been told off for parking in disabled spots. Thing is, he is disabled. He has an artificial leg and you can't tell this from just looking. Since he is disabled I do have strong feelings about non-disabled people using disabled parking spots, but I only go after them if there is no permit.

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by BNA » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:27 pm

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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby BigPete » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:27 pm

il padrone wrote:
BigPete wrote:I don’t see much difference between leaving a child alone in a car for a minute or two while the parent ducks into a shop to purchase something to allowing a child to cycle to school.


http://www.vicpolicenews.com.au/more-ne ... board.html


I am at a loss what the above web page article has to do with leaving a child in a car or riding to school. What am I missing?

il padrone wrote:
BigPete wrote:I don’t see much difference between leaving a child alone in a car for a minute or two while the parent ducks into a shop to purchase something to allowing a child to cycle to school.

The key difference in this little comparison is age of the said child. The laws re children left in cars especially on warm/hot days concerns the safety of children who are mostly well below the age that a responsible parent would consider allowing to ride solo to school. Once the child is more than 5-6 years old they are pretty much able to open the door or wind the window down if they get too hot.


But your comparison is quite an ironic one to raise. It is just the sort of thing that our taxi-mums are so very likely to do :roll: :P


I understand about very young children left in hot cars compared to school age children being left in cars or riding to school. However I am looking at this purely from a legal point of view. The law basically says that children under 12 can not be left alone for an unreasonable time. So in theory parents can be negligent if their child (under 12) is alone in the house, in the back/front yard, walking to school or shops, while paying for petrol at the service station or any other number of places. I don't watch the current affairs on the 7 or 9 networks but this article http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/article/-/14363066/child-protection-legal-trap/ was at the top of the list of my search and points out how parents can be caught out with this law.

The bottom line is why would parents let their children ride to school when the justice system favours them being driven to school in a car?
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby high_tea » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:00 pm

BigPete wrote:
I understand about very young children left in hot cars compared to school age children being left in cars or riding to school. However I am looking at this purely from a legal point of view. The law basically says that children under 12 can not be left alone for an unreasonable time. So in theory parents can be negligent if their child (under 12) is alone in the house, in the back/front yard, walking to school or shops, while paying for petrol at the service station or any other number of places. I don't watch the current affairs on the 7 or 9 networks but this article [url]<a class="vglnk" title="Link added by VigLink" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/article/-/14363066/child-protection-legal-trap/[/url"><span>http</span><span>://</span><span>au</span><span>.</span><span>news</span><span>.</span><span>yahoo</span><span>.</span><span>com</span><span>/</span><span>today</span><span>-</span><span>tonight</span><span>/</span><span>article</span><span>/-/</span><span>14363066</span><span>/</span><span>child</span><span>-</span><span>protection</span><span>-</span><span>legal</span><span>-</span><span>trap</span><span>/[/</span><span>url</span></a>] was at the top of the list of my search and points out how parents can be caught out with this law.

The bottom line is why would parents let their children ride to school when the justice system favours them being driven to school in a car?


Well, let's look at it legally. One, I assume you're talking abot s364A of the Queensland Criminal Cose. That's what the linked article seems to be referring to. Two, the law has nothing to do with negligence. Three, it depends on all the circumstances: the act says as much. Four, it's much broader than leaving kids unsupervised.

I recall reading that someone got charged. It ended up in court and they were, as I recall, unconditionally discharged. I don't know if the judgment was reported or not. That suggests, though that a bit of common sense is being applied. You'd hope so, with such a broad law.
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:27 pm

BigPete wrote:The law basically says that children under 12 can not be left alone for an unreasonable time.

Raises two questions...

What does it actually say?
Define unreasonable?
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby il padrone » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:14 pm

Totally unwilling to rely on Today Tonight for any sort of legal opinion :roll:


In Queensland the Criminal Code states you can't leave a child under twelve unattended, and carries a maximum penalty of three years’ jail.

It’s a serious breach that’s lost on many parents.


I think what is lost on many commercial TV journo's is the irony in that :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby il padrone » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:22 pm

BigPete wrote:
il padrone wrote:
BigPete wrote:I don’t see much difference between leaving a child alone in a car for a minute or two while the parent ducks into a shop to purchase something to allowing a child to cycle to school.


http://www.vicpolicenews.com.au/more-ne ... board.html


I am at a loss what the above web page article has to do with leaving a child in a car or riding to school. What am I missing?

An expert parent driving their child about :roll: Just 'ducking into' the local fast food drive-through, didn't want to leave the kid in the car :wink:
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby high_tea » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:54 pm

il padrone wrote:Totally unwilling to rely on Today Tonight for any sort of legal opinion :roll:


This.


BigPete wrote:In Queensland the Criminal Code states you can't leave a child under twelve unattended, and carries a maximum penalty of three years’ jail.

It’s a serious breach that’s lost on many parents.


This is what the statute actually says:

364A Leaving a child under 12 unattended
(1) A person who, having the lawful care or charge of a child
under 12 years, leaves the child for an unreasonable time
without making reasonable provision for the supervision and
care of the child during that time commits a misdemeanour.
Maximum penalty—3 years imprisonment.
(2) Whether the time is unreasonable depends on all the relevant
circumstances.


So it's against the law, as a parent, to let your kid out of your sight unless you make reasonable provision. I'm sure you could have a lively debate about what "reasonable provision" means, not to mention "unreasonable time". I'm not aware of any caselaw, not that I've really looked. My admittedly subjective and inexpert opinion is that this is directed at stupendously dumb acts that fall short of outright cruelty and it's worded broadly enough to catch most, and hopefully all, modalities of dumbness. Wowsers will not doubt seize on this as some sort of blanket prohibition on leaving kids unsupervised. On its face, it's no such thing. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise by considered discussion of relevant statute and caselaw :D
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:17 pm

high_tea wrote:This is what the statute actually says:


Thank you for that, enjoy this virtual beer. :wink:

FWIW, I concur with your interpretation and hope that magistrates have the commons to do so as well.
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby BigPete » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:46 pm

high_tea.

Please do not cut and paste text from a web site that I have referenced and then attribute that to what I wrote.
My reference to the site was to show that there are people who have a similar view to myself, in that this law can catch people who are otherwise law abiding.

high_tea wrote:
BigPete wrote:In Queensland the Criminal Code states you can't leave a child under twelve unattended, and carries a maximum penalty of three years’ jail.

It’s a serious breach that’s lost on many parents.


This is what the statute actually says:

364A Leaving a child under 12 unattended
(1) A person who, having the lawful care or charge of a child
under 12 years, leaves the child for an unreasonable time
without making reasonable provision for the supervision and
care of the child during that time commits a misdemeanour.
Maximum penalty—3 years imprisonment.
(2) Whether the time is unreasonable depends on all the relevant
circumstances.



You also wrote:-

high_tea wrote:I recall reading that someone got charged. It ended up in court and they were, as I recall, unconditionally discharged. I don't know if the judgment was reported or not. That suggests, though that a bit of common sense is being applied. You'd hope so, with such a broad law.


This backs up to a degree, what I have been suggesting in this thread. As far as I am aware there have been 3 people charged for leaving children alone in cars under S364A. They all pleaded guilty but no conviction was recorded. The fact that they weren’t convicted is not the point here. These parents have suffered the humiliation and anguish that goes with being charged and of having to appear in court. I for one don’t want to go through that just because some citizen, head teacher or police feel I am neglecting my child.
I stick with my view that society is discouraging children to cycle to school.
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby Comedian » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:56 pm

I just don't get what the difference is between a parent sitting in a car with kids driving to school and a parent sitting on a bike riding with his children to school.

Sure, society may frown on children being unaccompanied in public but I can't see any reason why a parent can't ride a bike next to his kids.

Can somebody help me here?
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby high_tea » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:17 pm

BigPete wrote:high_tea.

Please do not cut and paste text from a web site that I have referenced and then attribute that to what I wrote.


I apologise for the misattribution.

What you in fact said was:

The law basically says that children under 12 can not be left alone for an unreasonable time. So in theory parents can be negligent if their child (under 12) is alone in the house, in the back/front yard, walking to school or shops, while paying for petrol at the service station or any other number of places.


Today Tonight may be with you there, but the statute is not.

My reference to the site was to show that there are people who have a similar view to myself, in that this law can catch people who are otherwise law abiding.


What's your point? That this law proscribes behaviour that would otherwise be lawful? I'm with you there, but what of it?


high_tea wrote:
BigPete wrote:In Queensland the Criminal Code states you can't leave a child under twelve unattended, and carries a maximum penalty of three years’ jail.

It’s a serious breach that’s lost on many parents.


This is what the statute actually says:

364A Leaving a child under 12 unattended
(1) A person who, having the lawful care or charge of a child
under 12 years, leaves the child for an unreasonable time
without making reasonable provision for the supervision and
care of the child during that time commits a misdemeanour.
Maximum penalty—3 years imprisonment.
(2) Whether the time is unreasonable depends on all the relevant
circumstances.



You also wrote:-

high_tea wrote:I recall reading that someone got charged. It ended up in court and they were, as I recall, unconditionally discharged. I don't know if the judgment was reported or not. That suggests, though that a bit of common sense is being applied. You'd hope so, with such a broad law.


This backs up to a degree, what I have been suggesting in this thread. As far as I am aware there have been 3 people charged for leaving children alone in cars under S364A. They all pleaded guilty but no conviction was recorded. The fact that they weren’t convicted is not the point here. These parents have suffered the humiliation and anguish that goes with being charged and of having to appear in court. I for one don’t want to go through that just because some citizen, head teacher or police feel I am neglecting my child.
I stick with my view that society is discouraging children to cycle to school.


According to the Courier-Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/samford-valley-mother-41-pleads-guilty-to-leaving-her-two-children-3-and-10-unattended-at-bunnings-at-bald-hills/story-e6freoof-1226382642419) two (maybe three? one article isn't clear on the point) people have been absolutely discharged. IOW, they may have been technically guilty, but the appropriate penalty was nothing. There's a big, big difference between being absolutely discharged and just having no conviction recorded. I think we've heard the last of people being charged for that kind of conduct. I can't see the police going to the trouble over similar conduct in the future, not when the court's reaction is to do absolutely nothing.

Society may well discourage children from cycling to school, but this law has nothing to do with that argument.
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby Oxford » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:25 pm

Comedian wrote:I just don't get what the difference is between a parent sitting in a car with kids driving to school and a parent sitting on a bike riding with his children to school.

Sure, society may frown on children being unaccompanied in public but I can't see any reason why a parent can't ride a bike next to his kids.

Can somebody help me here?

I think the issue is unaccompanied children riding bicycles to school, not accompanied children.
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby DavidS » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:56 pm

I remember riding unaccompanied to school well under the age of 12. What the hell is the problem with this all of a sudden?

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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby tubby74 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:46 pm

I find it odd that most people say this is a thing of today vs yesteryear. When I was going to primary school it was 3 blocks away in a dead end suburb. By that I mean there was on road in and out, so no through traffic, north epping in sydney. The only time I was allowed to ride to school was my very last day there. At least our house backed onto national park and we had free reign there.
Now aways my 5 year old is a .little further from school in a far busier suburb and rides every day unless its raining. At that age my wife or I walk with him each day, but it seems far safer that the melee that is the school run parking outside the school.
I can only hope that my parents concerns were an exception all years ago, was late 70's early 80's.
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby human909 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:32 am

I'm so amazingly confused about all this stuff about unaccompanied children in public. :roll:

I was 8 when was walking to the bus stop and catching a bus into the Perth CBD and out to school. I also rode my bicycle around the neighbourhood alone. This was hardly unique.


The law mentioned is supposed to cover leaving a child a DAY or more alone. Not a few hours. :roll:
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby Xplora » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:25 am

Worth bearing in mind that a kid under 12 is actually less likely to have issues with cars because they can ride the footpath if they choose. If my lad was a maniac I'd suggest the road because I would not want to have to have an argument in court as to whether or not my child was liable for driving into a sidedoor....

Then again, I think the benefits of recording your child's ride when the cameras are so cheap if they are riding a short distance to school is probably worth its weight in gold :idea:
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby bychosis » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:41 am

I just noticed in the school info pack for new starters that it says that under 10s cannot ride to school, it is illegal. I am sure they are talking about unaccompanied, but still not very well worded.
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby GraemeL » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:25 am

It's an absolute joke these days, I was approx 7 and rode quite a fair distance to school. The way people carry on, there is an ax murder on every corner.

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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby Comedian » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:38 am

GraemeL wrote:It's an absolute joke these days, I was approx 7 and rode quite a fair distance to school. The way people carry on, there is an ax murder on every corner.

Graeme

it's blame the victim mentality gone nuts!
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Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby BrisVegas » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:38 pm

GraemeL wrote:It's an absolute joke these days, I was approx 7 and rode quite a fair distance to school. The way people carry on, there is an ax murder on every corner.

Graeme


For sure. I rode to school on my own in Brisbane from Grade 3. In grade 1 & 2 I caught the bus, but would have ridden if we lived closer.

I ride to school with my daughter now and she loves it. She's in grade 2 and is 7 years old. We did it a few times last year, but since getting her a 3 speed mini-mountain bike she finds the hills a lot easier. We only ride about 1.5km each way, but it's much quicker than walking. Very few bikes in the bike racks, which is sad. I continue on to the city, then call in to school and collect her and we ride home together. When my youngest starts prep next year, I'll get her riding as soon as she is capable.
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby just4tehhalibut » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:35 am

In one of the first Travelsmart programs run in (South of) Perth they tried to encourage people to walk, ride, bus it more. This included helping people learn their local bus routes, provide timetables, so on. At a local primary school they surveyed those who drove in, there were lots of sad cases living within a km that drove in, the winner was someone who lived only 85 metres from the school. At that distance it isn't even worth looking for the bike helmet and lock to ride in let alone bundle everyone into the car, seatbelts on, reverse out, drive, find a parking spot, get your kids across the road amongst all the other mothers and mo-fos in the school drop off zone then go through it all again to drive home.

Most hadn't considered public transport at all for themselves or their kids let alone biking it. This was in a suburbia bordered by freeway and major highways but with a lot of bus and even ferries running, plus major cyclepath networks used by commuters from suburbs further out. You could say that those travelling through this patch were using bikes and buses more because it was more economical in time and money, those living within weren't under as much pressure as they lived closer to the CBD so they just never really bothered to look at other options. It's the plain lazy in us that makes a suburb of car owners a suburb of car drivers.
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby barefoot » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:11 pm

We had our "introduction" night last night at my daughter's new school.

There are no busses servicing the school. Zero. Although the principal mentioned that some students regularly get picked up by taxi, which the school knows about and monitors closely.

One Dad inquired about kids walking home alone. Everybody was aghast at the idea. Admittedly, in context, we're talking about 5-year-olds in their first year at school, and the guy was more concerned that his child has an over-inflated sense of independence and navigation, and might be prone to making a run for home if not watched closely. But really, there's plenty of houses within a (quiet backstreets) block of the school - I was expecting at least some comment that "some parents start letting their kids walk home alone in year x, but that's up to you and your child and blah blah". Nope.

The principal was very welcoming to my wife's offer of starting a walking school bus - starting one, that is, because there is none yet. A WSB would suit us well... our plan is to walk (750m) to school with her every day, rain hail or shine (we're in Ballarat, so there's plenty of the first two :roll: ). We're close to the catchment boundary in our direction (we're about half way between two primary schools), so there's not much penalty in picking up a few more kids along the way... and it raises the option of having a roster of parents, so we doesn't have to do it every single day. We already have three starters; our next door neighbour's kid starts next year, as does another friend around the corner, so that's three less cars fighting for prime parking position.

Of course, once the kids know how to ride bikes and stuff, the walk to school will get a bit of mechanical assistance.

A bit surprised at how "helicopter"-ish the school culture is. I thought our area - one of the nicer pockets of inner Ballarat - was reasonably progressive and more likely to have at least an undercurrent of free-range parenting. Oh well, I guess it will be up to me to subvert the dominant paradigm...

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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby cp123 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:43 pm

Hey Barefoot - I went to primary school in Ballarat in the dim dark past. unfortunately my old school is no more. I think it got the chop into apartments (St Joey's - Lyons Street) :D
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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby barefoot » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:24 am

cp123 wrote:Hey Barefoot - I went to primary school in Ballarat in the dim dark past. unfortunately my old school is no more. I think it got the chop into apartments (St Joey's - Lyons Street) :D


I've only been here 10 years (so it's still another 4 generations or so before my family are real locals)... I don't know any remnant schools on Lyons, so they must have done a good job of it :(

It's a great cycling town now ;-)

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Re: Things parents say why kids not riding to school

Postby Roinik » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:49 am

If we are so scared of having our kids walk or ride to school, aren't appropriate measures called 'teaching your child how to ride a bike, understand road rules and ride defensively' appropriate measures?

I remember riding with friends to school in year 2. I'm trying to give my daughter the same freedom and enjoyment. The most challenging thing at her school is affluenza and dodging all of the expensive luxury vehicles vying for precious car spaces. I believe her life is richer because we ride when we can. Next year, when my young bloke is in ELC, we will be riding every day (~3km each way); rain, hail and shine; dress or sports uniform. I might have to sponsor a roof over the bike racks, float the idea of a cycling education programme and water down this whole children remain supervised until parents arrive thing (only to cater for when they're riding their bikes) to prove a point too.

The sense of freedom, enjoyment and independence that kids get when riding their bikes is immeasurable.
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