Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

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Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby schroeds » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:41 pm

Just when I was feeling all cozy with my righteous indignation, a friend said to me:

"Because they are sportsmen/women, we hate the fact that they may take something to give them an edge. But if a great musician (and I'm sure this has NEVER happened!) takes a drug and writes a really awesome song that gains them millions of dollars/pounds then we're really ok with that! Nobody discounts Toulouse Lautrec's work because he was pissed on absinthe"

Please wise men, help me work through this conundrum.... :?:
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:58 pm

schroeds wrote:Just when I was feeling all cozy with my righteous indignation, a friend said to me:

"Because they are sportsmen/women, we hate the fact that they may take something to give them an edge. But if a great musician (and I'm sure this has NEVER happened!) takes a drug and writes a really awesome song that gains them millions of dollars/pounds then we're really ok with that! Nobody discounts Toulouse Lautrec's work because he was pissed on absinthe"

Please wise men, help me work through this conundrum.... :?:

Art is not a competition.

The business behind art is governed by the rule of law.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby old al » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:59 pm

Testosterone Patches are readily available to help people with low levels that would benefit from a testosterone boost. I am 68 and I race in the local Masters club races. I regularly race against riders in their 70's. I don't use them but if one of the other riders of my vintage was using them for reasons other than boosting performance then I would accept that no problem even if as a side benefit it did boost their performance. At this level of racing there is no drug testing.

I am sure their are plenty of people using so called "performance enhancing drugs" for reasons totally unconnected with performance in the sporting field. I am not a doctor and it would be interesting to know just how many "performance enhancing drugs are used for other reasons. Anybody got any idea?

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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby ozdavo » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:00 pm

Art/Music etc is not a competition in the way sport is where there is a winner and a loser and the winner gains from it.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby old al » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:02 pm

Is the site playing up or is it my computer. Got 3 posts instead of one and now I cannot delete them.

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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:07 pm

old al wrote:Testosterone Patches are readily available to help people with low levels that would benefit from a testosterone boost. I am 68 and I race in the local Masters club races. I regularly race against riders in their 70's. I don't use them but if one of the other riders of my vintage was using them for reasons other than boosting performance then I would accept that no problem even if as a side benefit it did boost their performance. At this level of racing there is no drug testing.

I am sure their are plenty of people using so called "performance enhancing drugs" for reasons totally unconnected with performance in the sporting field. I am not a doctor and it would be interesting to know just how many "performance enhancing drugs are used for other reasons. Anybody got any idea?

Al.

If you have a medical reason to use a prohibited substance, and intend to race in sanctioned events covered by the WADA code, then get a TUE. You signed a licence agreeing to be bound by the rules, including doping rules. The TUE process is clearly outlined on the ASADA website.

If your health is such that you need prohibited substance(s) and cannot get a TUE, I would suggest that perhaps you should not be racing.

Otherwise, it's doping. End of.

BTW - there is testing of masters riders. Just not all that often.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:09 pm

old al wrote:Is the site playing up or is it my computer. Got 3 posts instead of one and now I cannot delete them.

Al.



Your computer is on ROIDS!.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby old al » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:14 pm

ozdavo wrote:Art/Music etc is not a competition in the way sport is where there is a winner and a loser and the winner gains from it.


Archibald Prize? There are winners and losers and the winner gains heaps from the competition. I am sure the winner this year was on LSD or at least funny mushrooms! :D

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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby old al » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:19 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
old al wrote:Testosterone Patches are readily available to help people with low levels that would benefit from a testosterone boost. I am 68 and I race in the local Masters club races. I regularly race against riders in their 70's. I don't use them but if one of the other riders of my vintage was using them for reasons other than boosting performance then I would accept that no problem even if as a side benefit it did boost their performance. At this level of racing there is no drug testing.

I am sure their are plenty of people using so called "performance enhancing drugs" for reasons totally unconnected with performance in the sporting field. I am not a doctor and it would be interesting to know just how many "performance enhancing drugs are used for other reasons. Anybody got any idea?

Al.[/quote
If your health is such that you need prohibited substance(s) and cannot get a TUE, I would suggest that perhaps you should not be racing.

Otherwise, it's doping. End of.

.


Rhetorical question Alex. I do not use anything except caffeine in my morning coffee. By the way, is there a maximum amount of caffeine allowance. Can you get done for excessive caffeine in your body at a drug test?

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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby kirky92au » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:53 pm

What happens to a musician who takes an anxiety pill or something to help them concentrate for an audition over someone who doesn't? Does this not give them an advantage and possibly monetary reward for what they are doing?

This documentary is a pretty good watch regarding the use of performance enhancing drugs and the people who use them in low level competitions. Bigger Stronger Faster
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby Xplora » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:05 pm

I think it comes down to being prepared to play by the rules... of course, taking drugs for music is against the rules, but good luck getting that one respected. Serious mental illness is often accompanied by extreme creativity... the "rules" are almost ridiculous constraints placed on the rest of us who cannot physically keep up without them.

Is it fair that I can't compete because I wasn't BORN with more testosterone, and better recovery, to compete with Usain Bolt? That's an equally valid question for the humble masses. No drugs might be safer, but it is not a level playing field.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:15 pm

Unless the the so called drugs are for helping a said medical condition, NO :wink:

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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby sogood » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:17 pm

old al wrote:Testosterone Patches are readily available to help people with low levels that would benefit from a testosterone boost. I am 68 and I race in the local Masters club races. I regularly race against riders in their 70's. I don't use them but if one of the other riders of my vintage was using them for reasons other than boosting performance...

Tough one!

Similar to the health benefiting HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) in women, there's a trend to use male HRT (testosterone) in senior males. This is all in the name of preserving bone density, maintaining muscle mass and prevent falls (a "killer" in the elderly) amongst other health objectives. Given the direction, it'll come into conflict for the Masters ranks sooner or later. Time will tell how it'll be resolved.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby sogood » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:19 pm

foo on patrol wrote:Unless the the so called drugs are for helping a said medical condition, NO :wink:

Given the direction of preventative medicine in the senior group, this ain't so simple any more.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:24 pm

old al wrote:Rhetorical question Alex. I do not use anything except caffeine in my morning coffee. By the way, is there a maximum amount of caffeine allowance. Can you get done for excessive caffeine in your body at a drug test?

Homework assignment:
Download and have a look at the WADA prohibited list, and then also the list of substances that are under active consideration for inclusion?

You'll find your answer there.

Research and report back.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:28 pm

sogood wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:Unless the the so called drugs are for helping a said medical condition, NO :wink:

Given the direction of preventative medicine in the senior group, this ain't so simple any more.

It's simple for us though, since we are not the ones determining what is and isn't prohibited.

It may be that WADA places such things on their under active consider list at some stage, but that is not our direct concern.
There is nothing to say you can't use such therapies and continue to ride a bike. Just you can't race while doing so. Make a choice.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby winstonw » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:38 pm

schroeds wrote:Please wise men, help me work through this conundrum.... :?:


Only one cyclist wins the TdF and associated monetary reward every year.
There's no limit on production of inspirational music/art/sculpture/books.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby AndrewBurns » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:12 pm

winstonw wrote:
schroeds wrote:Please wise men, help me work through this conundrum.... :?:


Only one cyclist wins the TdF and associated monetary reward every year.
There's no limit on production of inspirational music/art/sculpture/books.


There are however many artistic prizes around that are only offered once a year and which can be worth quite a lot of money.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby adrian_d » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:17 pm

In the end your the only person to really answer to when it comes to "success"

I guess its like cheating when your playing on your own. Half the fun is in the journey. I personally believe anything is possible with determination. 3 months ago I didn't even know what a bottom bracket was, and in 2 days i'm entering my first event. While it isn't a competition, i've worked and trained hard to get there and that is more enjoyable than any first place knowing that it wasn't all entirely me doing the work. I may never make it to TdF but i'd prefer to play a fair game or not play at all. Of all those hours that Armstrong would have trained for, and all those nerves to loose everything at the end of his career. I really wanted to be more like him.

You may see yourself doing better by taking them, but the edge has always been and always will be from the performance enhancement which in this sense was only designed to make you perform better than "humanly possible".

Look after your body, we only get one. The idea with cycling is to improve health and to be participating in things.

I guess the only side I could see is...

Take 2 models, one has plastic surgery and one doesn't. While I feel I can always see true beauty in people who are natural, I can see that having work done to them may allow them to get work where others couldn't. The other is technically getting the competitive edge, but there are no rules in this case and this is more about a career than anything, but for professional cyclists there is no prize for last position and it seems a "necessity" for cyclists to strive for that edge.

Knowing what I know now, I could never see myself Striving to become a professional cyclist knowing that there is never going to be a level playing field. If the drug tests couldn't even pick it up now, imagine what the future holds with new forms of concealment.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby Tornado » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:39 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote: then get a TUE.

Hi

What is a TUE? I'm assuming it's a declare it and seek an exemption type thing. Not sure.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby JustJames » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:52 pm

AndrewBurns wrote:
winstonw wrote:
schroeds wrote:Please wise men, help me work through this conundrum.... :?:


Only one cyclist wins the TdF and associated monetary reward every year.
There's no limit on production of inspirational music/art/sculpture/books.


There are however many artistic prizes around that are only offered once a year and which can be worth quite a lot of money.


It's very simple:

The problem is not with people taking drugs. The problem is with people taking drugs which - and this is the important bit - the rules say they should not be taking.

If there are art prizes which prohibit the use of certain drugs, and an artist uses those drugs, they should be ruled out of contention for the award. If the rules for the award are silent on the point, then let the artist smoke, snort, swallow, shoot up or insert in the orifice of their choice whatever drugs they want.

It's all about the rules, not some puritanical notion that drugs are evil.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby winstonw » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:55 pm

AndrewBurns wrote:
winstonw wrote:
schroeds wrote:Please wise men, help me work through this conundrum.... :?:


Only one cyclist wins the TdF and associated monetary reward every year.
There's no limit on production of inspirational music/art/sculpture/books.


There are however many artistic prizes around that are only offered once a year and which can be worth quite a lot of money.


And how do you cheat to get those prizes?
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby HelmutHerr » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:06 pm

As an example, the use of beta blockers among orchestra musicians is controversial (well, controversial among musicians).

They enhance performance, but is it ethical?
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby zero » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:17 pm

Tornado wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote: then get a TUE.

Hi

What is a TUE? I'm assuming it's a declare it and seek an exemption type thing. Not sure.


Therapeutic use exemption.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby sogood » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:39 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:It's simple for us though, since we are not the ones determining what is and isn't prohibited.

It may be that WADA places such things on their under active consider list at some stage, but that is not our direct concern.
There is nothing to say you can't use such therapies and continue to ride a bike. Just you can't race while doing so. Make a choice.

Yes, it is simple if viewed simplistically. But for the individual senior, it'll become a choice b/n good health and bike racing (or any racing that comes under WADA regulations). If unresolved by the governing body, then the rules will become an impediment on wider participation and good health by best practice. Not an easy one from a policy point of view.
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