Surly Ogre as a tourer

All about touring, whether you are a local or visiting from overseas.

Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby rifraf » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:13 am

I've been having thoughts about getting something a bit more suitable for offroad touring than my trusty (and slightly rusty) Moulton APB.

I'd like to hear thoughts/opinions on the Surly Ogre as what I know about frame geometry could be written on a matchhead.
I've picked up that long chainstays and wheelbases "can" equate to loaded stability but thats about where my knowledge starts to fizzle.
http://surlybikes.com/bikes/ogre

The Long Haul Trucker didnt put a gleam in my eye although I've no doubt its a capable machine.
http://surlybikes.com/bikes/disc_trucker

I see the Ogre shares a similar wheelbase (in size L) but is 4cm shorter and its chainstays are approx 29mm shorter.
If they were both 26 inch wheeled I'd think that the Ogre might be slightly more lively because of this but I suspect this would be negated by its larger 29 inch and heavier wheels.

The Troll is also on the shortlist to be considered but at this stage I'm probably leaning towards the larger wheeled Ogre due
to my thinking it although heavier and slower accellerating, a more comfortable and forgiving ride.

Much as I like the look and what I've heard about the Thorn Nomad, I'd currently struggle to pay for the quality of component build that the Surly would afford me.

I'm thinking of a disk braked setup with no suspension fork.

As the Ogre/Troll are extremely versatile in regards to drilled for lots of hub, pannier rack and fender options they appear much easier kitted out and potentially easier maintained which is my preference.

What are your thoughts?
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by BNA » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:47 am

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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby Nobody » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:47 am

rifraf wrote:I'm probably leaning towards the larger wheeled Ogre due to my thinking it although heavier and slower accelerating, a more comfortable and forgiving ride.
Also add better rolling resistance, some claim better climbing traction and a lower centre of gravity in reference to the hub height.
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby DavidL » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:03 pm

I have just got myself a Salsa Fargo as a bit of a all round tourer with more of a focus of heading off into the bush around here and the Vic High Country. I believe it is pretty much the same frame as the Ogre as Salsa and Surly both sit under the same parent company:
Image

It is currently being used as my MTB bike while I get my suspension bike fixed, but will get its panniers put back on it and used for more longer distance stuff over this summer. All the specs are on the Salsa website but it is 29" wheels, CrMo frame and has eyelets all over it. This is a Gen1, the Gen2 is suspension fork corrected and has a replaceable derailleur hanger which would be a nicer.

Coming from XTC and Road bikes this has a nice relaxed riding style. I wasn't sure about the bar end shifters, but for touring they would be good, however suck pretty bad for offroad MTB action which isn't too much of a problem as the BB is quite low on this frame for stability and the chain rings start to hit everything when the technical level goes up (none of this is really an issue if your touring).

Woodchipper bars are really nice to ride on, on the top is really relaxed for cruising, the drops are wonderful of down hill decents, head winds and when you just need to stretch your back. I like these much better than bar ends on a flat bar, they are a nice compromise between a flat bar and road drop bars.

- David.
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby rifraf » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:54 pm

Hi David,
great looking rig.
If you have time, I'd love to see a "from the saddle" view of the bars and maybe a front on view.
I've heard good things about the woodchipper bars.
How many teeth on your largest and smallest cassette sprockets and also your chainrings?
Does it feel low geared enough?

I sent some emails this morning to both Dirtworks and also a WA local dealer who sells Surly.
Both replied very very quickly.
Dirtworks say "We currently have complete Ogres in 18/20/22", and Ogre framesets in 16/18/20/22/24", all in Drab Green."
Local Dealer says "For the complete bike, the Ogre (in green) is $2199 and the Troll (in black or orange) is $1999.
For the frames only, the Ogre (in green) is $799 and the Troll (in black) is $749."

A bit of naff utube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AcKHJnk4jU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVgsOQCKj7Q
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby HelmutHerr » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:37 pm

I'm picking an Ogre up this week. It's a commuter for me, and I hope to try some touring when my fitness picks up, but I did a lot of reading about it before deciding.

Here are some links that might help:

http://whileoutriding.com/
http://gorctrails.blogspot.com.au/search/label/ogre
http://forums.mtbr.com/bikepacking-bike ... 04192.html

The MTBR forums have lots of Ogre threads, covering a lot of details. The search bar can direct you.
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby rifraf » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:01 pm

HelmutHerr wrote:I'm picking an Ogre up this week. It's a commuter for me, and I hope to try some touring when my fitness picks up, but I did a lot of reading about it before deciding.
The MTBR forums have lots of Ogre threads, covering a lot of details. The search bar can direct you.

Hi HelmutHerr,
thanks for the links - appreciate that.
Your buying a complete unit as opposed to a frame kit?
I'm still reading MTBR Troll thread and up to pg 26. http://forums.mtbr.com/surly/surly-troll-650122-26.html
My eyes will be square by tomorrow I'm sure. :shock:
Dont forget to throw a pic in this thread when you get the chance as we'd love to see your new ride. :!:
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby HelmutHerr » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:35 pm

rifraf wrote:Your buying a complete unit as opposed to a frame kit?

Crikey, no.

To bring it under my budget I ordered a frame, and the shop is building up a single speed Frankenbike using a few of the standard components plus bits ripped off my old Giant hardtail.

My plan is to progressively buy the parts I want until I have enough to turn it into whatever single-purpose machine I need for an outing.

rifraf wrote:My eyes will be square by tomorrow I'm sure. :shock:

Tell me about it. A lot of posts in those threads are just people enthusing about the bikes, which is great, but you have to search for the good info.

I'll post pics up for sure when it arrives!
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby HelmutHerr » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:43 pm

Here's the all-purpose Surly Ogre thread at MTBR, in case you survived the Troll one.
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby DavidL » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:56 pm

rifraf wrote:Hi David,
great looking rig.
If you have time, I'd love to see a "from the saddle" view of the bars and maybe a front on view.
I've heard good things about the woodchipper bars.
How many teeth on your largest and smallest cassette sprockets and also your chainrings?
Does it feel low geared enough?


Based on specs:
Crankset is 44/32/22
Cassette is 11-34T

Is that low enough gearing, well yes. If 22x34 isn't low enough then it is time to get off and push.

When I am back home on the weekend I will take some photos for you of the Woodchppers.

- David.
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby wolfeyes » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:52 am

Hi all...

Reviving thread, this is my new Surly ogre only a few weeks old.......mainly bult up with Shim XT and avid.

Have been on a few rides so far and i absolutely love it, cant wait to put some racks on it and do some longer trips...just need to work out what racks will fit :D

I have also ridden a Salsa fargo with a flat bar (not woodchippers) and would say the geometry does not suit.

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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby rifraf » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:04 am

wolfeyes wrote:Hi all...

Reviving thread, this is my new Surly ogre only a few weeks old.......mainly bult up with Shim XT and avid.

Have been on a few rides so far and i absolutely love it, cant wait to put some racks on it and do some longer trips...just need to work out what racks will fit :D

I have also ridden a Salsa fargo with a flat bar (not woodchippers) and would say the geometry does not suit.

Hiya wolfeyes,
very nice - I'm envious as hell :mrgreen:
Where did you source the frame?
Did it take long to arrive?
Who built up the wheels for you and did you end up with 36 spokes or...?
Does yours have bottle mounts on the underneath of the frames downtube?
It seems some do and some dont :?
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby wolfeyes » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:48 am

Hey Rifraf

Frame was sourced from my old LBS...im assuming they go through Dirtworks

I think i got lucky... the frame came pretty quick (only a couple of weeks) and yes it is the new vers with the bottle mounts underneath (which makes 3 or 5 if you include the forks :P )
Wheels were built up from old LBS... they are Mavic 719 (36 hole) with hope hubs...cost a bit so hopefully they will hold up.

All parts have been sitting around for a while as i was in the process of moving.... bike was built by Gateshead cycles in Newcastle..

let me know if you want anymore info..
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby rifraf » Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:50 pm

wolfeyes wrote:Hey Rifraf

Frame was sourced from my old LBS...im assuming they go through Dirtworks

I think i got lucky... the frame came pretty quick (only a couple of weeks) and yes it is the new vers with the bottle mounts underneath (which makes 3 or 5 if you include the forks :P )
Wheels were built up from old LBS... they are Mavic 719 (36 hole) with hope hubs...cost a bit so hopefully they will hold up.

All parts have been sitting around for a while as i was in the process of moving.... bike was built by Gateshead cycles in Newcastle..

let me know if you want anymore info..

Hi Wolfeyes
Thanks for the speedy response. Mines a little tardy due to being rushed trying to organise xmas pressies for overseas family.
If you'd been in WA I'd be pushing for a meet to admire your new machine.
What are your impressions of the ride. Steel 29ers (in particular) sound weighty and Surly bikes
sound "more bombproof" than most which I guess equates to servicing the stereotype.
The XT componentry will help with regards to that I'm sure as well as your quality wheelset.
What were/are your other bike/bikes with which you garnered your experience/opinions?
I love all those mounting points (warts) on the frame and forks.
I think you chose well with the 36 spoke count as thats what I'd go for as a minimum for my requirements.
Any particular reason for sourcing local your frame? Jensonusa.com seem to be a popular choice in different forums as well as here and so are bikeman.com. Being in a position to support your local bike shop is good though especially if your using them to build up the bike (I can see a good logic there).
Happy with the bike as you've now got it or do you have an upgrade path in mind - do share.
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby eyremowing » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:20 pm

I Have a Surly Ogre 18" that I have set up for touring, I am yet to do a big tour. I have been loading up the Ortlieb Classic Front and Rear Panniers with all my camping gear and been doing some 60km ( 3hr) training rides. I normally average around 20kms/hr with a mix of flat and hills. I have taken the running gear of a higher level mountain bike and got 700c disc wheels made up with a SP dynamo hub which are fitted with Schwalbe marathon tyres. Tubus duo front rack and a Topeak rear rack so I can also use a smaller rear bag for commuting. I have a brooks B17 saddle which I have just worn in and Mountain bike handlebars and hydraulic disc brakes. I have a E Werk and minigorilla battery pack to charge my Garmin 810 gps and Samsung S3 phone. The Ogre has mounting for everything you could throw at it, from Rohloff hubs, extra water bottle mounts on the forks, Disk or Cantilever brakes, Trailer mounting,
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby rifraf » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:29 am

eyremowing wrote:I Have a Surly Ogre 18" that I have set up for touring, I am yet to do a big tour. I have been loading up the Ortlieb Classic Front and Rear Panniers with all my camping gear and been doing some 60km ( 3hr) training rides. I normally average around 20kms/hr with a mix of flat and hills. I have taken the running gear of a higher level mountain bike and got 700c disc wheels made up with a SP dynamo hub which are fitted with Schwalbe marathon tyres. Tubus duo front rack and a Topeak rear rack so I can also use a smaller rear bag for commuting. I have a brooks B17 saddle which I have just worn in and Mountain bike handlebars and hydraulic disc brakes. I have a E Werk and minigorilla battery pack to charge my Garmin 810 gps and Samsung S3 phone. The Ogre has mounting for everything you could throw at it, from Rohloff hubs, extra water bottle mounts on the forks, Disk or Cantilever brakes, Trailer mounting,


Hi Eyremowing,
sounds great.
Woah, 20kph is much quicker than I travel - good on you for being so fit.
I'm hoping you can throw up some pics in this thread of your new bike.

I ended up getting an Ogre frame after some time thinking about it after posting this thread.

I'll be stealing my E-werk off my other bike for my Ogre which is now just about finished.
I'm just awaiting on some 60mm wide stainless mudguards from France, another tugnut from Wiggle, a Velo Orange Pass Hunter front rack like:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/130765706884
and some more tyres to try like some Schwalbe Marathon Supremes in two inch width.
I've got Big Apples 2.35 on at the mo.
I went with a Brooks Flyer Special as I'd been missing springs since I sold my B73 on my other bike.
I'm running a Son28 disk, E-werk with cache battery and Edelux headlight. The E-werk also charges my Edge 800
and mobile (currently an old LG). The E-werk is one of my favorite investments.

I went with the Rohloff in the end to see what all the fuss was about and completed my second ride yesterday.
Too early yet to have too many impressions but sitting fairly neutral at the moment. I can see pros and cons.

I went with Tubus as well. Cosmo on the rear and Nova on the front. I went with stainless after getting sick of looking at my other bikes racks with scratched paint and rust.

Just got my BBB XL Fueltank bottle cages but doubt there will be room for the lower one with the fenders.

Look forward to seeing your pics :D


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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby eyremowing » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:10 pm

Thanks, your bike looks really nice, quality gear. I have know idea how to upload photos, I tried, if you have any tips?
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby rifraf » Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:33 pm

eyremowing wrote:Thanks, your bike looks really nice, quality gear. I have know idea how to upload photos, I tried, if you have any tips?


Thanks, its my first build.
As for the pics there is some advice here:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23303
Basically you need to sign up for an account with a host like photobucket.
Resize your pics in Microsoft Picture Manager first by going opening your pic (usually a double click) and
the program that opens your pic is Microsoft Picture Manager (assuming you use Windows).
In Picture Manager, where I click "Picture" (menu at top left of screen) and then "Resize" and a menu appears magically on the right of the screen.
I click "Predefined Width x Height" and then click "Web Large 640 x 480" , then "OK", "Close" and "Save".

Then off to Photobucket they go minus some clarity due to the crappy compression method Windows XP uses. :lol:
Hope this helps.
Any probs, just let us know and myself or someone else will be glad to help.
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby GJ_Coop » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:51 am

All you need now is a chain.
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby rifraf » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:58 pm

GJ_Coop wrote:All you need now is a chain.

Hi GJ,
if you see the first pic of the water bottles you can see the bike now has a chain.
In the second pic, which was taken a week or so earlier, I couldnt wait to see if my panniers were going to fit ok.
I'd just gotten my wheels from the shop and wanted to do a mock up.
Theres no cables nor rear brake in that pic either.
Pretty much just mudguards and a small front flat rack to go.
Both paid for and on thier way from Europe and the USA.
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby GJ_Coop » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:45 pm

rif

Looks absolutely speccy.

Very jealous.

How are those pedals?

GJ
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby rifraf » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:16 pm

Hi GJ

Where abouts are you these days? I'm a little behind with your blogg but cant wait to catch up with my reading.
Been getting reports from my sister in NZ of horrible weather and I'm not missing it a bit. You were thinking about heading back at some stage if memory serves me. I think you've the bug and wont stay there for too long. Cycling weather and freedom camping is so much better over here. :D

The pedals are great - love em.
RonK recommended the dual-sided version Shimano PD-M785 XT Trail Pedals for the Moulton for my NSW to Perth journey - they were my first clip-in pedals. http://www.competitivecyclist.com/produ ... .31.1.html
Much as I liked them, there are occasions where I just dont want to be bothered with cycling specific shoes.
I'd also grabbed his recommended Northwave Drifter MTB gortex shoes and they too were a great buy as I have wide feet with a high arch and its hard enough just finding normal shoes that fit ok.
Whilst fantastic for tarmac, I do prefer to have flat pedals for off road and these XT Trail PD-T780
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-pd-t780 ... ng-pedals/
seem just the ticket.
This is due to a few spills in technical stuff and not being able to unclip in time.
Also for a milk run to the store in my jandals these pedals are the best of both worlds.
The reflectors have raised a few eyebrows but I'm happy with the perception of a bit of extra visibility/safety.
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby }SkOrPn--7 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:56 pm

Aidan looking great mate that touring machine is going to be awesome when it's finished. Love to hear some feed back on the new BA tyres they changed the profile of the tread and I still have 4 sets to get through before I purchase more. Would like feedback from someone who has the new profile as too what you think of them just in case I have to start searching for another tyre. I like the BA's they have served me well just hoping the newer ones do the same.

Cheers Ricky
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby rifraf » Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:01 pm

Hi Ricky,
I'm very happy with the BA's.
I've been meaning to talk to you more about your wheels, especially your problems with the rims.
Not sure if it has any relevance to your situation but on the minor off chance you've not come across it, I've read of issues
with rims and high volume tyres.
My initial rims on my Moulton were budget Velocity Triple V's
http://www.velocitywheels.com/store/pro ... =84&cID=27
which I remember used to look very strained indeed when I ran tyres at 100psi.
The tyres were quite skinny at the time being 1.10 Marathons -the originals.
They used to look like they were about to invert and probably were as I knew nothing about rims/tyres back then.
Funnily enough they looked even worse when I trialed some fat Maxis folding 1.9 tyres at around 80psi.
The first thing I learnt was that fatter tyres seemed to equate with more comfort albeit with some extra effort required to spin them.
Il Padrone mentioned it to me with regards to watching the pressure when I first joined the forum.
I took his advise and when I upgraded to Marathon Plus's I made sure to look after my rims with 50psi which even I noticed less distortion of rims so kept that pressure when I bought my new Velocity Aeroheat rims.
With the Ogre I immediately noticed to my astonishment that 30psi was hard enough to ride comfortably on without drag/tyre deformaton.
I had initially planned to run 50psi but saw/felt there was no need especially after hearing about your experience.
Now I've been reading about trailer rims bursting at 50 psi like yours did and I've been experimenting with pressures to see the distortion visually.
More reading shows many mountain-bikes with high volume tyres are running around 20psi both for traction/comfort and to avoid
rim splitting issues.
My conclusion is big volume can be as big an issue as high pressure.
Going back to the BA's my thoughts are they appear to be a good strong tyre that initially looks heavy on paper
but then I take into account some other factors.
My biggest consideration is comfort which I've found the big volume BA has in spades.
Many of the other offerings in larger volume (mostly 2 inch) dont accept low pressure like the BA so I question how they sit
in the comfort stakes. The below ones did, hence my consideration.
Most of the other tyres I looked at were also harder to source (in 2 inch 700c) and were dearer.

Marathon Supreme 27.65 Euro (bike24)
http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires ... on_supreme
has some qualities I like as in they are folding so are easy to take on tour as opposed to the big hoop BA's
similar performance in that they accept low pressure, they are lighter, carry the same load but harder to source and dearer.
They appear to have better puncture protection but the same durability for their price premium.
50-622 (28x2.00) PSI 30-70 Weight 654g Load 135kg

Marathon Mondial 33.53Euro (bike24)
http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires ... on_mondial
Suffer in the speed stakes but higher levels of protection and durability. Price premium. Much superior off road but not on road.
50-622 (28x2.00) PSI 45-80 Weight 825g Load 135kg

Marathon Dureme (discontinued?) 32.69 Euro (bike24)
Suffers in the speed stakes but superior in durability and puncture protection.
https://www.bike24.net/1.php?content=8; ... duct=18093
50-622 (28-2.00) PSI 30-70 Weight 645g Load 150kg

Big Apple Performance Line Wire Bead 20.92 Euro (bike24)
http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires ... /big_apple
50-622 (28x2.00) PSI 35-70 Weight 740g Load 135kg
60-622 (28x2.35) PSI 30-50 Weight 890g Load 145kg

My conclusion is having not ridden the above tyres I cant comment on their ride comfort but think its probably similar due to achieving a rim saving low pressure despite the BA being sold on it comfort qualities.
The off road ability has to go to the Mondial and the high miler durabiltiy would look to go to the Dureme (of questionable long term supply - no longer listed at Schwalbe North America).
The BA gives up a little to the other tyres I considered but I think when bang for buck is the deciding factor I give it very high marks.
As a daily rider of hardpack or tarmac it doesnt give up enough to make me want to spend more on the others.
I'll be buying a set of Mondials and Supremes to trial but I think I'm going to be very happy with the BA's for my day to day riding.
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby eyremowing » Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:10 am

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rifraf wrote:
eyremowing wrote:Thanks, your bike looks really nice, quality gear. I have know idea how to upload photos, I tried, if you have any tips?


Thanks, its my first build.
As for the pics there is some advice here:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23303
Basically you need to sign up for an account with a host like photobucket.
Resize your pics in Microsoft Picture Manager first by going opening your pic (usually a double click) and
the program that opens your pic is Microsoft Picture Manager (assuming you use Windows).
In Picture Manager, where I click "Picture" (menu at top left of screen) and then "Resize" and a menu appears magically on the right of the screen.
I click "Predefined Width x Height" and then click "Web Large 640 x 480" , then "OK", "Close" and "Save".

Then off to Photobucket they go minus some clarity due to the crappy compression method Windows XP uses. :lol:
Hope this helps.
Any probs, just let us know and myself or someone else will be glad to help.
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Re: Surly Ogre as a tourer

Postby jaffaman » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:57 am

Shame to hear the Dureme does look to be end of life - currently running them on my 26". Looks like the Marathon Deluxe is the replacement, although it is a little heavier. I think I'll try big apples if the duremes ever wear out.
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