eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Questions about purchasing bicycles and parts

Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby fxcat » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:18 pm

Sydguy wrote:OP thank for posting - it is always good to be aware of these things. If it helps one BNA member then job done.

It is sade that people are not trust worthy, you do see people doing the right thing on eBay by drawing your attention to any flaws on the item for sale. However there are scumbags out there.

Hope everything works out for you. With new bikes being IMO reasonably priced I don't think I would ever get a 2nd hand one.

Cheers
JM




exactly... if it helps to alert anybody that had a good intention, then it's job done...


it's funny how the world have come to, when some people with some twisted logic thinks that it's the buyer's fault for getting ripped off! I did try to talk with the seller, but if you missed it, the seller tried to get me to accept, and when I point out the price difference based on second hand ebay value would've been at least $200+, never between our conversation did I suggest he was trying to scam me, nor did I mention I wanted any compensation, but he still got pretty abusive right away! In fact the conversation approximately went like this...

Me: "hi there, did you have the receipts of when you did the service last November as it turns out that the cassette is actually from an old model 5600 105 cassette, not Dura Ace"

Seller: "No receipt, it was done at bla bla bla, the cassette doesn't matter as a 105 will actually wear better and you've already got a massively great deal, be happy with the bike"

Me: "But the fact is there is a big price difference between a 105 cassette and dura ace cassette"

Seller: "bla bla bla (AT)#!#!(AT) abusive language stuff you, etc.etc."

so go figure!




Nobody in this world can have enough time to learn and research every little details about what they're buying, it's not like I'm buying a $30,000 car or $500,000 home, eventually you have to take risk and/or trust someone else's honestly, it's quite normal for someone that's just starting, not to immediately pick out differences in every parts of a bike... The onus is always on the seller to make sure they correctly advertise what they're selling, honest mistake is acceptable, but for the seller that owns 4 bikes, and owned this for 2+ years, not to know what he's selling? Yeah right...


And for those that reckon it was a good deal, I don't know how you came to that conclusion, because I've added the parts based on ebay listings, it's not worth much... everyone bidded on the auction that day based on the description of the item, I'm sure the other bidders wouldn't have thought that they will be supplied with a difference cassette and handlebar...

but I realised if I'm going to spend anymore time chasing this up, returning it, and look for another bike etc. it's going to waste me a lot of time which is better spent making more money...

but for those that thinks it's the buyer's problem when they get scammed, let me know when you're in the market to buy anything, I mean anything, like cars, computers, mobile phones, even concert tickets, or whatever, I'll sell it to you first, then you can ask questions later... ;)
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by BNA » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:35 pm

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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby MichaelB » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:35 pm

fxcat wrote: ....And for those that reckon it was a good deal, I don't know how you came to that conclusion, because I've added the parts based on ebay listings, it's not worth much... everyone bidded on the auction that day based on the description of the item, I'm sure the other bidders wouldn't have thought that they will be supplied with a difference cassette and handlebar...

....


It sucks to have been duped, but I think that you are missing the point that whilst the seller wasn't real flash, you are culpable as well.

If the only difference was a DA cassette and carbon bars of no known origin, and you bid without looking ..... and then picked up and paid for without a good inspection .....

Anyway, lesson learnt.

Hope you left appropriate feedback ?
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby boss » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:40 pm

For mine, when buying second hand, viewing an item in the dark is as good as buying from interstate and relying on photos. Actually, photos are probably more useful than seeing an item in the dark.

Personally I have been 'ripped off' this way and the way I viewed the situation was that it was my own fault, I didn't chase it up with the seller and chalked it up as a learning mistake. The purchase I made was worth $100, not $900. However, the item I purchased was not useable in any way shape or form - was an interior part for a project car of mine.

If I was in your boots I would have probably done the same as I had with the car part - simply chalked it up as a learning experience. We are all different, and you are entitled to get a refund. I'm only saying this judging from the tone in your posts on here, but I think you may have been on your 'front-foot' with the seller, and perhaps been perceived as aggressive by the seller.

I'm not saying that to offend you, but to encourage you to take a step back from the situation.

Sure, you are entitled to a refund. But you are not blameless in your situation either. As above - viewing in the dark is as good as sight unseen.

I think the following points summaries why others on here haven't given you all the sympathy that you feel you're entitled:

1. I thought it was weird that you were unhappy about **only** getting your money back. You allude to the whole 'time is money' etc but seriously, you're getting your money back, be happy.

2. The bars look suspiciously un-carbon in the photos. A simple 'flick' when inspecting, even in the dark, would have confirmed suspicions.

3. Personally I thought the 105 v Dura Ace cassette was something you chalk up either as a rookie mistake and/or unclear description (as the description didn't state it specifically). Plenty of descriptions on eBay that are lacking really. As a reasonably regular buyer (and seller) on eBay, I can't stress enough the value in contacting the seller of an item to confirm details rather than simply assuming them from a vague listing.

4. Points 2 and 3 led us to believe that the seller was not being deceptive but perhaps didn't know much about the bike.
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby JustJames » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:38 pm

fxcat wrote:...
it's funny how the world have come to, when some people with some twisted logic thinks that it's the buyer's fault for getting ripped off!...


Erm, it *is* the buyer's fault. Who on earth do you expect to look after you if you can't look after yourself? Honestly, if you can't do whatever you need to do to prevent getting ripped off, you shouldn't be buying second hand.

Your complaint seems to come down to the absence of carbon bars and a DA cassette that turned out to be 105. A flick of finger against the bar would have settled the first argument, and as has been said already, cassettes are consumables

fxcat wrote:
Nobody in this world can have enough time to learn and research every little details about what they're buying, it's not like I'm buying a $30,000 car or $500,000 home, eventually you have to take risk and/or trust someone else's honestly



The worth of time spent researching should be proportional to the value of the item. In this case, you didn't do the homework. It's that simple.

fxcat wrote:
but for those that thinks it's the buyer's problem when they get scammed, let me know when you're in the market to buy anything, I mean anything, like cars, computers, mobile phones, even concert tickets, or whatever, I'll sell it to you first, then you can ask questions later...


Dude, it's not us, it's you.

What are you buying next?
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby ldrcycles » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:54 pm

jimboss wrote:1. I thought it was weird that you were unhappy about **only** getting your money back. You allude to the whole 'time is money' etc but seriously, you're getting your money back, be happy.


I can understand that perfectly, think about it, he didn't want his money back, he wanted what he thought he was buying. As has been said, there is a BIG difference in price between al and carbon bars, and 105 and DA cassettes. If i was in his position i would be hitting up the seller for a partial refund to compensate for the difference (although my tastes don't extend much beyond Tiagra so i'd be unlikely to be in that same situation anyway :) ).
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby JustJames » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:15 pm

ldrcycles wrote:
jimboss wrote:1. I thought it was weird that you were unhappy about **only** getting your money back. You allude to the whole 'time is money' etc but seriously, you're getting your money back, be happy.


I can understand that perfectly, think about it, he didn't want his money back, he wanted what he thought he was buying. As has been said, there is a BIG difference in price between al and carbon bars, and 105 and DA cassettes. If i was in his position i would be hitting up the seller for a partial refund to compensate for the difference (although my tastes don't extend much beyond Tiagra so i'd be unlikely to be in that same situation anyway :) ).


That's not the way it works, LDR!

The buyer was offered a refund, but it was all too hard.

The seller offered to rewind the whole deal. And asking a seller for a refund is borderline acceptable.

Attempting to reopen negotiation when you've goofed up on a deal is not acceptable.
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby boss » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:34 pm

JustJames wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:
jimboss wrote:1. I thought it was weird that you were unhappy about **only** getting your money back. You allude to the whole 'time is money' etc but seriously, you're getting your money back, be happy.


I can understand that perfectly, think about it, he didn't want his money back, he wanted what he thought he was buying. As has been said, there is a BIG difference in price between al and carbon bars, and 105 and DA cassettes. If i was in his position i would be hitting up the seller for a partial refund to compensate for the difference (although my tastes don't extend much beyond Tiagra so i'd be unlikely to be in that same situation anyway :) ).


That's not the way it works, LDR!

The buyer was offered a refund, but it was all too hard.

The seller offered to rewind the whole deal. And asking a seller for a refund is borderline acceptable.

Attempting to reopen negotiation when you've goofed up on a deal is not acceptable.


I think it's a grey area with regard to partial refund, as item was not as described.

What got me in a bit of a tizzy was the OP complaining like he should be entitled to something more than a full refund. Full refund is best case scenario in a situation like this, sure you might be a little bit upset that you missed out on a bargain... but its not the kind of upset you get where you write a post all in a huff like someone actually ripped you off.
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby warthog1 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:20 pm

I reckon it was still a good deal. He paid a fraction of what the bike was worth new. Get out and ride it and stop whinging.
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby fxcat » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:52 pm

I think all points have been missed here!

#1 it doesn't matter if I inspected in the day, or night or when if I had received it in the post, the seller listed one thing and delivered something else, he sold for less than he expected, but automatically have the option to back out of the deal, win-win situation for the seller

#2 I wanted exactly what I paid for, no more no less, if the humans at PayPal had really thought about whats going on, my ideal resolution would've been to partially refund me so I can replace exactly what was supposed to be there.. But apparently that's not how it work....

so my post is to warn any potential buyers exactly what could and would happen to you, that there is a loophole that needs to be fixed to force any kind of integrity from the sellers, please read my post, and tell me if that wasn't my intention!!
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby neoppg » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:29 pm

Tough break..... The. Bike however does seem like good value for the money..... Nothing worse than expecting something and receiving something else....... I feel exactly the same way about my first wife .. ....and her return policy was $$$
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby fxcat » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:04 pm

neoppg wrote:Tough break..... The. Bike however does seem like good value for the money..... Nothing worse than expecting something and receiving something else....... I feel exactly the same way about my first wife .. ....and her return policy was $$$



haha... who doesn't have the same problem ay?

I'm copping it honestly... I can imagine many scenarios where you will probably end up with the same trouble...

Say you can go out and buy a computer for your kid and the salesman tells ya that it will play the latest games, you take it home, and finds out it doesn't, option 1) cop it, pay extra to upgrade, 2) refund if you're lucky

scenario 2) you buy a mobile phone, the salesman tells you it will work in overseas network, like Japan and USA, you go on a business trip, it doesn't work, option 1) when you're overseas you have no choice, pay to buy a new one, 2) when you're back home, refund if you're lucky only if the salesman admit to his words...

scenario 3) you buy a new small car, the boot looks cramped, you want to use it say on Golf days, you didn't bring your Golf Bag just to test out the boot (who does?) , you take the car home, and spring comes, and you want to play Golf with your friends, you find out it doesn't fit... now what? Doubt you'll get a refund, and don't think you'll want to sell and upgrade either....


in all these situation you're going to be stressed and waste a lot of time to sort of the problem just so you can get back to square one...



same in my situation, I'm just starting out, spent a lot of time to research to see if the relevant parts are of good quality and reputation, if it's something that will suit me for the next few years, if it's what I want and/or need, then work out what is the maximum amount that I want to bid up to etc. for me to get back to square one and do it all over again is too time consuming and stressful....

so moral of the story is the crooks always gets away with it, and what can you do?? :O
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby JustJames » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:13 pm

This thread just keeps on giving.

Image

(Edited 'cause original image had naughty wordage. I thought of the kiddies.)
Last edited by JustJames on Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby Ross » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:29 pm

fxcat wrote:
scenario 3) you buy a new small car, the boot looks cramped, you want to use it say on Golf days, you didn't bring your Golf Bag just to test out the boot (who does?) , you take the car home, and spring comes, and you want to play Golf with your friends, you find out it doesn't fit... now what? Doubt you'll get a refund, and don't think you'll want to sell and upgrade either....




I went shopping for a car a while bac kand one of the major consdierations was that it had enough room to fit my bike in the back. So I took my bike with me when I went looking and did "test fit" (made sure the bike was clean first, didn't want to get dirt or grease on someone's car). If anyone had a problem with that (which they didn't) I just would of walked away.

fxcat wrote:same in my situation, I'm just starting out, spent a lot of time to research to see if the relevant parts are of good quality and reputation, if it's something that will suit me for the next few years, if it's what I want and/or need, then work out what is the maximum amount that I want to bid up to etc. for me to get back to square one and do it all over again is too time consuming and stressful....


Maybe if you are strating out and don't really know what you are doing yet you would of been better to buy from a shop. Personally I wouldn't of bought the bike (if it's the one someone linked to a few posts back) going off the description and price.

fxcat wrote:so moral of the story is the crooks always gets away with it, and what can you do?? :O


You have to take some responsibility for your own (in)actions. Pay attention to what you are buying, if you don't know enough about it yourself then get a friend to look at the bike for/with you before you pay for it.
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby boss » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:31 pm

:roll:
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby Alistair » Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:39 pm

fxcat wrote:I'm copping it honestly... I can imagine many scenarios where you will probably end up with the same trouble...


The only problem is that none of those situations are remotely comparible.

Second-hand carbon bars are a dodgy proposition anyway... and you will never be able to tell the difference between a 105 and DA cassette.

By the sounds of things you should be grateful he didn't put a crocodile in your boot. At least then your comparisons might hold some weight though.
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby fxcat » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:41 pm

duh... it was just a very vague way of throwing some scenarios out to picture the trouble you would have to go through if everytime you have to go back to get a "refund" when someone sells something that is not as described whether by intention or not, but looks like we're going down that path to discuss whether such exact SAME thing could practically happen in real life, which is not the purpose of the post...

anyway, for those that continues to try to dissect the case in more details than needed, for their ego or whatever reasons, is missing the point, I have paid for the item through PayPal, I knew what the risk was, I could always get the refund through PayPal or through my bank's credit facility, I have researched enough to be able to tell pretty much all parts of the bike, except that I've missed little details like the handlebar and cassette that was obscure and I've forgotten to check (because my guard was down thinking the guy is a decent bloke)....


Now the worst case scenario is here, I can either choose to be out of pocket by $200-300, which is a few hours labour, or return the bike to the crook, which also will mean I have given him few hours of my labour, so I decide to choose the first option...


Again the intention of the thread, is to let other people know, that when they bid on eBay, something like this could happen, whether you're buying bikes, or cars, or whatever, if you think you've got something that is fair priced, parts can always be swapped out, or sale completely aborted, so other people can become aware of the risk, people can choose to share their experience, but going down the path to say that I should've inspected more carefully or whatever does NOT solve the problem, the problem lies with eBay and PayPal, because it's their loophole that allows such thing to happen...
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby fxcat » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:02 pm

for those that still don't see the problem..

imagine you see a bike listed, 1 year old bike, full dura ace, and carbon, sold for $2,000, but because it sold for less than the seller wants, he swaps the cranks and cassette out to 105, changes the brakes, you go and pick up, you realise the problem, so what? Then the seller makes up some story, and tries to get you to accept, obviously you refuse, then great, the deal is off, seller can try to sell it again privately...

then imagine again, same bike, 1 year old, full dura ace and carbon, with zipp wheels, sold for $2,000, again sold for less than the seller wants, he takes the wheels off and put in some dodgy second hand chinese copy carbon wheels with zipp stickers, you go and pick up, don't realise the problem until you have it cleaned, checked and serviced at your local bike shop, bought new pedals, new brakes , new tyres, fit new bar tapes, take to your local shop to fit, then when you go pick up, the shop owner tells you the zipp wheels aren't geniune, you contact the seller and he makes up a bunch of excuses, he didn't know, or he thought they're geniune, or whatever crap, now he offers you a refund, what do you do?


it doesn't matter if you have found out the scam when you inspect, or later down the track, the problem is the seller can do such thing on eBay, in real life, ie. in small claims court, you could sue and get your money's worth, but I'm just here to point out the flaws in eBay so hopefully no one needs to go through the same trouble, have fun...
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby MichaelB » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:11 pm

fxcat wrote:for those that still don't see the problem..

imagine you see a bike listed, 1 year old bike, full dura ace, and carbon, sold for $2,000, but because it sold for less than the seller wants, he swaps the cranks and cassette out to 105, changes the brakes, you go and pick up, you realise the problem, so what? Then the seller makes up some story, and tries to get you to accept, obviously you refuse, then great, the deal is off, seller can try to sell it again privately...

then imagine again, same bike, 1 year old, full dura ace and carbon, with zipp wheels, sold for $2,000, again sold for less than the seller wants, he takes the wheels off and put in some dodgy second hand chinese copy carbon wheels with zipp stickers, you go and pick up, don't realise the problem until you have it cleaned, checked and serviced at your local bike shop, bought new pedals, new brakes , new tyres, fit new bar tapes, take to your local shop to fit, then when you go pick up, the shop owner tells you the zipp wheels aren't geniune, you contact the seller and he makes up a bunch of excuses, he didn't know, or he thought they're geniune, or whatever crap, now he offers you a refund, what do you do?


it doesn't matter if you have found out the scam when you inspect, or later down the track, the problem is the seller can do such thing on eBay, in real life, ie. in small claims court, you could sue and get your money's worth, but I'm just here to point out the flaws in eBay so hopefully no one needs to go through the same trouble, have fun...


I think that you are waaaay overthinking it.

Maybe the seller did some dodgy/not quite right stuff. Neither did you.

Chalk it up as a life lesson and let go. There are many way more important things in the world. Aside from a couple of minor issues (and they are minor), which are partly your fault because you didn't inspect before handing over the cash, and then refused the offer of a full refund, yet still think the world is against you.

A DA cassette can be picked up for $100 if you look hard enough (I got one from this forum for $90 posted, and carbon bars can vary in quality and price - form $70 to over $400.

So, as i mentioned before. Lesson learnt (for seller & buyer).

Enjoy the bike, as aside from that, you got a great deal.

Ride safe
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby Sydguy » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:18 pm

Ordered 2 carbon cages from eBay and paid $80 via Paypal. The seller had 100% rating, sent me 4 cages then promptly messaged wanting me to post the extra 2 cages back to him in HK.

Could this be some kind of scam whereby the seller hopes I pay for the extra cages? Or sell them to a mate? Or they really can't count good?

No idea what postage will be for 2 carbon cages, I thought eBay was supposed to be quick and easy!

JM
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby JustJames » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:46 pm

Auspost site says $11.90 will cover airmail to HK up to 20kg.

If you have a Pay-Pal account, it would not be unreasonable to ask the vendor to pay the postage cost for their balls up.
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby redcorpsjames » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:06 pm

Or keep them and tell him to pi$$ off
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby rkelsen » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:19 pm

fxcat wrote:it doesn't matter if you have found out the scam when you inspect, or later down the track, the problem is the seller can do such thing on eBay, in real life, ie. in small claims court, you could sue and get your money's worth, but I'm just here to point out the flaws in eBay so hopefully no one needs to go through the same trouble, have fun...

Ummm... ebay is just a medium used for trading goods. It has no magical properties that make it exempt from the law. If you wanted to take the seller to small claims court for a 'shonky' deal on ebay, you certainly have the legal right to do so.
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby damhooligan » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:42 pm

fxcat wrote:for those that still don't see the problem.....


what problem ??

Clearly more then one member is telling you the same thing.
Surely that could mean that they have a point??
Yet you keep on refusing that feedback..

If you dont see this, the only problem I see is you wont learn from your mistake.
And you wil repeat yourself..
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby Howzat » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:39 pm

fxcat I gotta say that from my point of view, you did nothing wrong.

The seller misrepresented the goods, and did so in writing. There's a word for that: fraud.

[updated]

But that's why you won the Paypal case. So get your money back - that's also fair. It's better than a lot of people get.
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Re: eBay Bike Buying SCAM, PayPal not helpful either...

Postby JustJames » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:29 am

OP made two errors:

1. He forgot (didn't know?) about 'caveat emptor'. Loosely translated: Buyer beware. In other words, exercise a bit of care to ensure that the item is as described.

2. He allowed the seller to bundle the bike into his car without checking it over.

When the OP found that the bike was not as described, he raised a dispute, which was awarded in his favour.

At that point he really should have returned the bike and walked away. Why else bother to raise the dispute if he was not going to rescind the deal?

Where the OP has parted ways with the real world is the continued insistence that somehow this is not enough.

I don't think that the seller was guilty of anything more than ignorance. Here on planet Earth it's most unlikely that the seller would go to the trouble of swapping out a (used) DA cassette for a (used) 105 cassette, swapping out the carbon bars for alloy and updating the sale pics with alloy ones too! There's a piece of wisdom about not attributing to malice that which can be explained by thoughtlessness.

The OP continues to claim martyrdom and that this is all to prevent similar things happening to anybody else. Well, those of us who vaguely resemble grown ups learnt a long time ago that the world can be an unfriendly place, and have learnt to look out for ourselves.

Still, for entertainment value, this thread is tops. I only hope it runs as long as the 'Doping in C Grade/Handbags at Dawn' thread.
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