Moron Motorists #3

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Undertow » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:11 am

Lukeyboy wrote: If you can't ride a bike fast enough in a 60kph zone in the middle lane of a built up area and then claim the lane (abeit riding to the left or bang in the middle) they shouldn't even be on that section of road in the first place. In Queensland its legal to ride on the footpath. Either try to match the speed of the traffic around you/posted speed limit or find a new route through that area/ride along the footpath to rejoin futher up the road instead of dordling blind in the middle lane.


Why should a cyclist have to travel on a footpath, where the safe speed would probably be <10km/h, instead of on a road where they can do 30km/h+?

The speed limit isn't a minimum, it's a maximum safe speed for that road and there is no law saying you have to go at the speed limit.
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by BNA » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:57 am

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby boss » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:57 am

Undertow wrote:
Lukeyboy wrote: If you can't ride a bike fast enough in a 60kph zone in the middle lane of a built up area and then claim the lane (abeit riding to the left or bang in the middle) they shouldn't even be on that section of road in the first place. In Queensland its legal to ride on the footpath. Either try to match the speed of the traffic around you/posted speed limit or find a new route through that area/ride along the footpath to rejoin futher up the road instead of dordling blind in the middle lane.


Why should a cyclist have to travel on a footpath, where the safe speed would probably be <10km/h, instead of on a road where they can do 30km/h+?

The speed limit isn't a minimum, it's a maximum safe speed for that road and there is no law saying you have to go at the speed limit.


I know Today Tonight isn't the most reputable source, but I recall seeing a handful of stories advertised with elderly drivers being fined for driving 10-15km under the speed limit. You know the headline

'First they said you can't drive under the speed limit. Now they say you can't drive under the speed limit. Now it's time to run around the kitchen with your hands on your head because the sky is going to fall!'
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby find_bruce » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:36 am

jimboss wrote:I know Today Tonight isn't the most reputable source ...

Thank you sir for the quote of the month :D
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby wellington_street » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:42 am

fingy wrote:In an Ipod world of his own


That's an interesting situation.

1. Was the magna doing a right turn into the driveway or a u-turn?
2. Mind-bogglingly stupid from the magna to swing so far left to turn right
3. Cruz driver obviously thought that the magna had pulled over, but was almost guilty of passing a vehicle turning right (right indicator comes on before the opposing vehicle gets past the cruz, so plenty of warning)

Just a superfantastic situation, really. Even if the magna had 'priority' (hi Oxford), he was really asking for it by swinging so far to the left and stopping, as it looked like he pulled over.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby wellington_street » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:46 am

rosscojj wrote:A couple of Close Passes and SMIDSY's... last few rides have been good though after a bad streak.


Camera focal length might be deceptive on this one but it didn't look like the driver did much wrong. If you didn't need to slow down, then he did nothing wrong by pulling out in front of you and it makes perfect sense for him to do so, rather than being stuck behind a slower vehicle.

Of course, if it was much closer than it appears and you did need to slow down to avoid a collision then my post does not apply.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:52 am

wellington_street wrote:Camera focal length might be deceptive on this one but it didn't look like the driver did much wrong. If you didn't need to slow down, then he did nothing wrong by pulling out in front of you and it makes perfect sense for him to do so, rather than being stuck behind a slower vehicle.

Of course, if it was much closer than it appears and you did need to slow down to avoid a collision then my post does not apply.

I think you said it yourself. The focal length is deceptive. He certainly brakes significantly and rapidly, in the end more than necessary but that car was going FAST.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Lukeyboy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:28 pm

Undertow wrote:
Lukeyboy wrote: If you can't ride a bike fast enough in a 60kph zone in the middle lane of a built up area and then claim the lane (abeit riding to the left or bang in the middle) they shouldn't even be on that section of road in the first place. In Queensland its legal to ride on the footpath. Either try to match the speed of the traffic around you/posted speed limit or find a new route through that area/ride along the footpath to rejoin futher up the road instead of dordling blind in the middle lane.


Why should a cyclist have to travel on a footpath, where the safe speed would probably be <10km/h, instead of on a road where they can do 30km/h+?

The speed limit isn't a minimum, it's a maximum safe speed for that road and there is no law saying you have to go at the speed limit.


And doing 30+kph under the speed limit in an area where there are lots of blind spots caused by the of difference in speeds between traffic and the cyclist is any safer? There are some roads that cyclists must maintain speed of the traffic around them. I don't have a problem with cyclists if they can constantly do 30kph in 60kph zones as long as they are on the far left but if they decide to venture into the middle lane of traffic and can't maintain the speed of traffic around them when cars go left and right to get around turning cars, around buses and to be in the correct lane for the major intersection up ahead then find another less congested route through that area or use the footpath. Not the drivers fault if they get rear ended from making themself a blind spot because they failed to maintain a lack of proper speed in a built up area. Its no different than riding a bike or a moped onto a motorway or telling your kid to ride down this busy road.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Kenzo » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:55 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:And doing 30+kph under the speed limit in an area where there are lots of blind spots caused by the of difference in speeds between traffic and the cyclist is any safer? There are some roads that cyclists must maintain speed of the traffic around them. I don't have a problem with cyclists if they can constantly do 30kph in 60kph zones as long as they are on the far left but if they decide to venture into the middle lane of traffic and can't maintain the speed of traffic around them when cars go left and right to get around turning cars, around buses and to be in the correct lane for the major intersection up ahead then find another less congested route through that area or use the footpath. Not the drivers fault if they get rear ended from making themself a blind spot because they failed to maintain a lack of proper speed in a built up area. Its no different than riding a bike or a moped onto a motorway or telling your kid to ride down this busy road.


What if the 'obstruction' is a broken down car? Or does that mean a person getting hit while fixing a flat car tyre is themselves to blame for not moving at the speed of the traffic?
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Lukeyboy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:02 pm

One would move over to the far left as possible or into a side street. Also activate the hazard lights on the car and then proceed with caution to change the wheel. If its broken down remain in the car and call RACQ. Traffic would well and truly start to back up first before someone can ram into the back of you.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Kenzo » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:11 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:One would move over to the far left as possible or into a side street. Also activate the hazard lights on the car and then proceed with caution to change the wheel. If its broken down remain in the car and call RACQ. Traffic would well and truly start to back up first before someone can ram into the back of you.

Not every road is a busy street - you know that right?

On Monday I crashed my bike (lost the front through a turn). Was laid out in the middle of two oncoming lanes. ~5.20pm.
NO CARS ... I had enough time to check myself over, pick up my bike, look for anything I may have dropped and walked the bike to the footpath (to fix the punctured front tube). Point is - traffic does not always 'back up'.

People should always ride/drive to the conditions. I believe you are providing an example of 'blame the victim' mentality?
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:13 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:I don't have a problem with cyclists if they can constantly do 30kph in 60kph zones as long as they are on the far left but if they decide to venture into the middle lane of traffic and can't maintain the speed of traffic around them when cars go left and right to get around turning cars, around buses and to be in the correct lane for the major intersection up ahead then find another less congested route through that area or use the footpath.


Lukeyboy wrote:Not the drivers fault if they get rear ended from making themself a blind spot because they failed to maintain a lack of proper speed in a built up area. Its no different than riding a bike or a moped onto a motorway or telling your kid to ride down this busy road.


:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

I read plenty of comments in the Herald Sun that is more cyclist friendly than you. :shock:

There is no requirement to do the speed limit. There are plenty of vehicles other than cyclists which can't drive at the speed limit in many areas. Today I was riding at 25kph on a 60kph taking up the full left lane. I was largely keeping pace with traffic which fluctuated between 0kph and 60kph. And I certainly was going faster than buses which have to stop every 500m.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Lukeyboy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:28 pm

Kenzo wrote:Not every road is a busy street - you know that right?


Since when did i say it applies to every road? I was meerly ppointing out this one particular section of road. Doesn't mean it applies to every road.

Human909, read my posts carefully again. "I don't have a problem with cyclists if they can constantly do 30kph in 60kph zones as long as they are on the far left but if they decide to venture into the middle lane of traffic and can't maintain the speed of traffic around them..." "Either try to match the speed of the traffic around you/posted speed limit or find a new route through that area/ride along the footpath to rejoin futher up the road instead of dordling blind in the middle lane."
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:37 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:Human909, read my posts carefully again. "Either try to match the speed of the traffic around you/posted speed limit

No, I will not.

Lukeyboy wrote: or find a new route through that area

Nor will I do this. Main roads are generally the direct and fastest rout. Back roads are much slower.

Riding in the middle of the lane is safer for cyclists. Naturally if the left hand land is clear without obstacles I will generally stay in that lane. If I need to turn right then I will indicate and move into the right hand lane. Essentially I ride in the same way as I drive, I will place myself in the lane appropriate to the conditions.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby DentedHead » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:40 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:I don't have a problem with cyclists if they can constantly do 30kph in 60kph zones as long as they are on the far left but if they decide to venture into the middle lane of traffic and can't maintain the speed of traffic around them when cars go left and right to get around turning cars, around buses and to be in the correct lane for the major intersection up ahead then find another less congested route through that area or use the footpath.


Dent's paraphrase: "I don't have a problem with cyclists as long as they ride the way I do, or the way I think they should."

And, in SA, WA, Vic and NSW we cannot choose to ride on the footpath (legally).

Also, this is waaaay off topic. Maybe this discussion should find an appropriate thread?

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Lukeyboy » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:52 pm

human909 wrote:Riding in the middle of the lane is safer for cyclists.



Read my posts again. Not the middle of a lane. The middle lane of a 3 lane road.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:54 pm

Ross wrote:Wow. Why does the cyclist at the beginning of the clip "claim the lane" when theree is a perfectly good debris/car free cycle lane next to him?

Not a bike lane, but rather it is the shoulder of the road - no requirement to ride on the shoulder (in Australia it is not part of the road)

Ross wrote:And then a bit later on in the clip the cyclist signals left and changes lane without a head check! He may have a mirror (I couldn't see one) but I would of thought a head check would be a mandantory safety thing. Would be for me. He does do a head check later in the clip when he decides to move left into the cycle lane for a while (but then changes out again with no head check!).

I believe the cyclist would be using a helmet-mirror. These riders are certified League of American Bicyclist traffic instructors.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:55 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:
human909 wrote:Riding in the middle of the lane is safer for cyclists.



Read my posts again. Not the middle of a lane. The middle lane of a 3 lane road.

When maneuvering to do a right turn at a T-junction, riding in the middle of three lanes is the safest for a cyclist.... especially if the left lane is a 'left-turn only' lane.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Kenzo » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:59 pm

DentedHead wrote:
Lukeyboy wrote:I don't have a problem with cyclists if they can constantly do 30kph in 60kph zones as long as they are on the far left but if they decide to venture into the middle lane of traffic and can't maintain the speed of traffic around them when cars go left and right to get around turning cars, around buses and to be in the correct lane for the major intersection up ahead then find another less congested route through that area or use the footpath.


Dent's paraphrase: "I don't have a problem with cyclists as long as they ride the way I do, or the way I think they should."

And, in SA, WA, Vic and NSW we cannot choose to ride on the footpath (legally).

Spot on...

DentedHead wrote:Also, this is waaaay off topic. Maybe this discussion should find an appropriate thread?


Not really off topic - because this mindset is the problem we face as cyclists...
The expectation cyclists will make way for the car because cyclists are slower. I can tell Lukeyboy is simply making his point based on safety - and rightly so. There are times where we as cyclists need to GIVE as well as take.

Carry on then.
PS Lukeyboy - I have a similar section - heading North following Rochedale Rd - http://www.nearmap.com/?q=@-27.615016,1 ... d=20121006 . Have ridden through it almost a hundred times this year and so far have had just one moron - perhaps just a confused elderly man controlling a metal death cage.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby m@ » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:04 pm

From a purely pragmatic point of view, I'd agree that there are some roads where drivers' failure to drive to the conditions makes it unsafe to take the middle lane unless you can keep up with other traffic. Plenty of roads in Sydney that have transitory left- and right-turn-only lanes and occasional parking in the left-hand-lane would fit into this category for me... drivers are far too distracted with changing lanes to avoid getting stuck behind a turner or parked car to notice what's going on 500m down the road.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:14 pm

Heck man, every day on my commute I am confronted with this...... on a hill climb, with plenty of traffic buzzing up to the lights. Often I stay in the left lane, and switch lanes closer to the lights (I'm usually doing about 14-16kmh), but I have also made the right merge earlier on with no undue problems. Often what we have not experienced may all seem just too scary.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby zero » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:31 pm

I routinely do 30km rides on arterials in Sydney. If your technique is sound IMO they are safer than typical back road routes for the following reasons.

(a) faster, more direct - less time and km exposure to risk
(b) fully controlled intersections with right turn arrows/pockets - less risk of fail to giveway
(c) easy for motorists to get past - other lanes to use to overtake with
(d) central dividers, virtually no risk of being struck by oncoming traffic, or by midblock turners.
(e) speed differential is the same anyway - in fact on typical arterials its less because sydney arterials are generally the flattest route.
(f) right turn pockets protect me when I come to a stand waiting to make a right turn.
(g) lack of road furniture and buildings close to roadway, reduced or no parked cars - rare, broad and easily observed driveways.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:35 pm

zero wrote:I routinely do 30km rides on arterials in Sydney. If your technique is sound IMO they are safer than typical back road routes for the following reasons.

(a) faster, more direct - less time and km exposure to risk
(b) fully controlled intersections with right turn arrows/pockets - less risk of fail to giveway
(c) easy for motorists to get past - other lanes to use to overtake with
(d) central dividers, virtually no risk of being struck by oncoming traffic, or by midblock turners.
(e) speed differential is the same anyway - in fact on typical arterials its less because sydney arterials are generally the flattest route.
(f) right turn pockets protect me when I come to a stand waiting to make a right turn.
(g) lack of road furniture and buildings close to roadway, reduced or no parked cars - rare, broad and easily observed driveways.


I've saved a copy of that thanks :)
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby m@ » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:40 pm

il padrone wrote:Heck man, every day on my commute I am confronted with this...... on a hill climb, with plenty of traffic buzzing up to the lights. Often I stay in the left lane, and switch lanes closer to the lights (I'm usually doing about 14-16kmh), but I have also made the right merge earlier on with no undue problems. Often what we have not experienced may all seem just too scary.

Yeah, but now imagine that road with Sydney drivers! :shock: :shock: :shock: :wink:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby landscapecadmonkey » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:09 pm

A definite drop in taxi driver standards in Brisbane in the last year

Had more close calls in the last 3mths than past 3 years/

Tonight was the closest. Lane claiming coming down Fagan Rd towards Butterfield Rd Herston, when the taxi fecker tried to overtake me on the left, and then right turn in the space my front wheel was then currently occupying.

Chased said fecker down the rd, screaming obsenties as i went. He got away. Sort of thankful he did.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Jake » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:20 pm

landscapecadmonkey wrote:A definite drop in taxi driver standards in Brisbane in the last year

Had more close calls in the last 3mths than past 3 years/

Tonight was the closest. Lane claiming coming down Fagan Rd towards Butterfield Rd Herston, when the taxi fecker tried to overtake me on the left, and then right turn in the space my front wheel was then currently occupying.

Chased said fecker down the rd, screaming obsenties as i went. He got away. Sort of thankful he did.

I used to live on Fagan Rd many moons ago. I can only shake my head at the taxi! Glad you escaped unscathed.
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