Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint jobs

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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby justincase » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:41 pm

Jimboss, will do it in about an hour as my mouse battery is dying. Got to go get a bater r r r r y y y y y y .......
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by BNA » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:42 pm

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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby justincase » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:42 pm

BTW, will take about 4-5 months to kick off
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby boss » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:52 pm

justincase wrote:And yes to get them out there I will definitely doing sponsored deals to enthusiasts not necessarily pros. I plan to sell the first 100 or so at my absolute cost price which in the above case would be around $1,800 but this will obviously not be a public deal.


Remember that enthusiasts are not 'cool' and therefore will not sell you bikes.

You need to get people that are considered 'cool' riding your bikes.

Disagree if you want, but I know that I'm right on this. 'Cool' people move product.
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby justincase » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:01 pm

True,
But I know enough very very high profile former riders to help achieve this. Rather not mention any names here but of the handfull of lesser known ones is my wife who's been to an Olympics. But once again you are right!!
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby george-bob » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:17 pm

So, if I understand correctly you are proposing:

-Building bikes in a chinese factory using open mold frames using your own brand
-Acting as a middle man between the consumer and the chinese factory

If so, why would there be any differentiation (in performance, ignoring the paint) to a OEM like azzuri? What would make your bikes any better than any other OEM using the same open mold frames and designs (once again ignoring the paint jobs)?
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby justincase » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:20 pm

Ok, here is one example a an intricate paint job that is possible.

BUT I WANT TO BE CLEAR ........... THIS IS NOT MY FRAME!!!!! Nor is it a frame that I would consider selling.

ALSO this is not my personal view on what a customer's frame might look like, this is just an exercise in painting difficulty - thats all!!!

I personally prefer geometric designs in matte colours. I think my first prototype MTB frame will be matte black with with grey / silver skull and cross bone type tattoos (think like a full sleeve tattoo without all the colours) wrapped around the head tube and running part way down the top and down tube.

So here it is:

Image
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby justincase » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:36 pm

George-bob,
Thanks for your post, As I said I want to hear it all and if it comes out that what I'm proposing needs to be different to my my idea - so be it.

Firstly the frames will come out of Taiwan which is where most of the frame tech is coming from.

Also to my understanding Azurri do not offer a custom build service down to the very last nut and bolt. I can even get titanium bolts if you want. I don't see myself as being a middle man, I want this to be a global business that provides service first and foremost but that is irrelevant for now as I'm have no intention of using this forum to promote my brand - more as a way to get feedback from fellow cyclist as to what they want that they are not getting. So for example if the overwhelming majority thought that bikes should come out of Russia and made from card board well I'd have to listen - If you get my drift!!!!

You obviously know what your talking about in relation to the molds for carbon frames. So, yes I agree they wouldn't be better that one coming out of the same mould as the Azzuri but what makes you think I'm using that mould? I doubt many people would know if it came out of a Colnago mold whom also make frames in Taiwan by the way.

So in summary we will not be using the equivalent of an Azzuri mold. Not sure what their warranty policy is but we won't be doing less than 5 years and we will publish the weight of each fram in each size.
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby boss » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:54 pm

justincase wrote:George-bob,
Thanks for your post, As I said I want to hear it all and if it comes out that what I'm proposing needs to be different to my my idea - so be it.

Firstly the frames will come out of Taiwan which is where most of the frame tech is coming from.

Also to my understanding Azurri do not offer a custom build service down to the very last nut and bolt. I can even get titanium bolts if you want. I don't see myself as being a middle man, I want this to be a global business that provides service first and foremost but that is irrelevant for now as I'm have no intention of using this forum to promote my brand - more as a way to get feedback from fellow cyclist as to what they want that they are not getting. So for example if the overwhelming majority thought that bikes should come out of Russia and made from card board well I'd have to listen - If you get my drift!!!!

You obviously know what your talking about in relation to the molds for carbon frames. So, yes I agree they wouldn't be better that one coming out of the same mould as the Azzuri but what makes you think I'm using that mould? I doubt many people would know if it came out of a Colnago mold whom also make frames in Taiwan by the way.

So in summary we will not be using the equivalent of an Azzuri mold. Not sure what their warranty policy is but we won't be doing less than 5 years and we will publish the weight of each fram in each size.


George is referring to open mould vs closed mould frames. This sort of stuff is pretty common terminology across forums, both in Australia and abroad and I believe it is also used in industry.

Closed mould frames are developed by the brand and are specific to that brand. Trek, Giant, Colnago, etc all use closed moulds. They put $$$ into engineering, R&D, testing, etc.

Open mould frames are offered by manufacturers, and are essentially manufacturer designed. No indication is given to how much effort went into engineering, R&D, testing, etc and they are tend to be a loose copy of another popular frame.

Low price-point companies like Azzuri use open mould frames teamed with high end groupsets to provide a high bang, low buck solution.

If you are going to be involved in designing, engineering, and developing your own frames, then you would be using a closed mould.

If you are shopping from a catalog offered by manufacturers, then you are using an open mould.

So what George is saying, if you are shopping from a catalog, what differentiation are you offering, specifically in relation to the frame.

And I guess more specifically, and to the point, what is the point of offering super high end componentry offerings when you are supplying a frame that is potentially available on a bargain basement bike like Azzuri.

The type of people you will be targeting are cash rich time poor people who don't have the time or determination to build their own bike from scratch. You need to offer top shelf AND exclusive stuff the whole way through the process.
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby justincase » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:06 pm

Jimboss,
Again, good points!

This is one of the reasons I'm currently working on a long travel 29er MTB which will be exclusive to myself without the expensive cost of molds. I'm really trying to offer people a well priced good quality product.

see here:

Image
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby justincase » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:08 pm

BTW for those of you looking at the detail of the CAD drawing, it won't be in 6061 Aluminium. Will be either 6066 or 7075
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby boss » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:46 pm

If you're dealing with aluminum it's a different ball game really, and one that I assume not many on here will have much experience with. You obviously won't be dealing with moulds.
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby MarkG » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:47 pm

MarkG wrote:Justincase - and what does the "$1,800 cost price" bike consist of exactly.. curious..


Once again I ask..
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby boss » Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:48 pm

MarkG wrote:
MarkG wrote:Justincase - and what does the "$1,800 cost price" bike consist of exactly.. curious..


Once again I ask..


I'm surprised he dropped what cost price is, on an open forum. I'd be even more surprised if he told you what he gets for $1800. Foot being shot by own gun, etc.
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby MarkG » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:00 pm

Exactly - that's why I want to know - call me cynical, but I wouldn't be expecting much for $1800 cost price ...
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby boss » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:03 pm

MarkG wrote:Exactly - that's why I want to know - call me cynical, but I wouldn't be expecting much for $1800 cost price ...


I'm on the other end of the spectrum. If CyclingExpress can deliver a DI2 bike for $2400 I'd be expecting di2 minimum for $1800 cost. Maybe even DA.

We are talking manufacturer direct here, no middleman.
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby MarkG » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:14 pm

Yes, but that would mean he'd be getting groupsets etc dirt cheap to supply a bike for $1800..
Frame at supplier price.
Groupset at supplier price.
Wheels, tyres etc...
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby justincase » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:39 pm

Guys I totally understand the cynics in you. I'm one of them too. But the cost price is what it is. I'v got the prices and there is no disputing it. We've got approval from Shimano, Sram/Rockshocks. Still trying to coax Fox as they are concerned that we could sell their parts individually (not as part of a full bike) and they wouldn't agree to that as the prices we can get the parts for we would make Chain Reaction Cycles look like thieves!!!!

When you see the prices, you realise how much we are all getting ripped off. Don't forget the order of the business chain for brands: The brand > its manufacturers > its local distributor > and finally the bike shop. Do you not think they are all making a cut? I see it as 4 pigs drinking at the tough!

I'm proposing to short cut it by only have 2 pigs the manufacturer and the brand!

Maybe I have shot myself in the foot by revealing the cost but I take the view of this forum as an open discussion and I 'm not trying to market a brand here remember. No one knows what the brand name is as I haven't announced it!!! Nor will I - its not what forums are about. This is the the ABC network isn't it? :lol:
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby MarkG » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:42 pm

Well I take my hat off to you mate :)
So what does $1800 get me :)
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby justincase » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:03 pm

Thanks man.

Trust me I can make it better for all of us if your prepared to give a new brand a go.

As I said, I can do virtually identical as the Trek Superfly Pro, less the dropper post but better quality Shimano wheels - much much better that the Bontragers. At this stage I only have approval from Rox Shox for forks and shock so I'd do an equivalent fork to the Fox fork featured on the Trek. But Fox will give me approval once they see what I'm doing.

And obviously this would include the custom paint job.

Bear in mind at this price there is no money in it for me but thats what I'll have to do to get it out there. I view it this way: the people who buy the bike at cost and don't like the frame - fine chuck the frame out, keep the parts, buy a brand name frame you like a and you're probably still ahead.

I didn't want to let the cat out of the bag but since its come up I may as well tell you what I'm thinking about the guarantee:

The plan is if you don't like the frame (full paying customers), strip it, send it back, keep the parts and I'll pay for an equivalent brand name frame. There you go its out now ......
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby MarkG » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:07 pm

how about road bikes dude?
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby Crowz » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:08 pm

Seems like a very subjective warranty...
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby justincase » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:22 pm

Road bikes will be the same deal but I'm not prepared to do Aluminium as its a rubbish ride. I only ride steel, carbon or Ti. But as fashion is not for steel and Ti is pricey and also less fashionable, I'm stuck with doing carbon but as one of the other forum members pointed out, it needs to be my own mold to make it exclusive and this is very costly as you need a different mold for every differnet size in the one frame. So if you do 3 different frames, you need 3 x 5 sizes = 15 molds This is big bucks before you even make one frame.

So will probably use an open mold but am concentrating on finding the best available at this stage.

The warranty will have some small conditions but I'm not going to sell a frame that I wouldn't love so I'm prepared to take the risk an die by my own sword.

I've personally found in other business's and my own experience as a customer that a product has to be good - NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT but what makes the difference is the service. People come back for the service and reputation.
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby JustJames » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:18 pm

justincase wrote:Road bikes will be the same deal but I'm not prepared to do Aluminium as its a rubbish ride.


Quoted for reasons of irony and perpetuating of internet wisdom.

Here's a convenient way to modify the ride characteristics of any frame made of any material:

Image
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby boss » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:26 pm

justincase wrote:Road bikes will be the same deal but I'm not prepared to do Aluminium as its a rubbish ride. I only ride steel, carbon or Ti. But as fashion is not for steel and Ti is pricey and also less fashionable, I'm stuck with doing carbon but as one of the other forum members pointed out, it needs to be my own mold to make it exclusive and this is very costly as you need a different mold for every differnet size in the one frame. So if you do 3 different frames, you need 3 x 5 sizes = 15 molds This is big bucks before you even make one frame.


If you want to create a prestigious brand, that is the cost of doing business.

If not, be prepared to sell bikes at a 10-20% margin and/or fail.

People who are spending the big bucks on a bike will see that you're selling open mould frames straight away and steer clear. A custom paint job is not enough reason to switch from a reputable open mould brand like Azzuri.

The statements you made previously RE: accepting that people will buy your bikes for the componentry is surprising. You start off the thread saying that you want to build a brand name, then conclude that people will just buy your stuff because its cheap and move the group/wheels onto a better frame.

I think you should probably put this project to the site, think about it good and proper, talk to some people that aren't friends about the feasibility of the project, think some more.

Because right now it sounds like you're about to waste a tonne of money because you haven't thought stuff through.
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Re: Bikes with custom components and unlimited custom paint

Postby justincase » Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:32 pm

I think your missing the point of the guarantee. I don't expect people to just chuck away the frame but the guarantee will allow then to do so if they are not happy as I will stand by the quality - that Wjy i'm prepared to give such a guarantee.
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