help me identify this frame

Vintage, yesteryear and retro biking

help me identify this frame

Postby usernameforme » Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:49 pm

I've picked up this frame:
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anyone know anything about it? It has a sticker that says reynolds 853 butted frame and stays and it will be over 5 years old, but that's all I can tell you. The forks are SUNN 1" aluminium straight power forks, I don't think they came with the frame, any info on that too?
Last edited by usernameforme on Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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by BNA » Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:58 pm

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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby funnybike » Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:58 pm

Cougar did a lot of TT bikes back in the day of 650c front wheel TT bikes.
Would be good to see a pic with the wheels in place. If it has super laid back head and seat tube angles then that would indicate that this is a 650c front frame that has had the fork replaced with a 700c fork. The aero profile tubes and fillet brazing all lean towards TT bike.
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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby usernameforme » Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:09 pm

I can't seem to get a 700c rear wheel into the frame, the drop-outs are too narrow (they are horizontal too :? ). The front wheel is a tight squeeze too at the dropouts, but fits fine. This frame was supposedly built by someone called "Paul Donahugh", again this means nothing to me.

I've just measured the geometry (don't have tools to measure angles):

Horizontal TT: 535mm
ST 510mm
Head tube: 95mm

The head tube seems quite short for a 535mm top tube, would this suggest a TT bike too?
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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby Dan » Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:43 pm

usernameforme wrote:I've just measured the geometry (don't have tools to measure angles)


http://www.ossmann.com/protractor/conventional-protractor.pdf
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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby usernameforme » Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:55 pm

I've managed to get a the wheels on, (pics in the first post). It also appears to me that it takes 700c wheels, I had a spare brake handy and it matches up
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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby funnybike » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:03 pm

Measure the distance between the rear tips. Probably 126mm, indicating frame is pre-1989 when 130mm spacing began. (not a certainty though)
Yes the very short top tube would seem to fit the theory that it is a funny bike with a 700c fork substitute.
To find out for sure, try the following test:
Step 1: Take it for a ride with a 700c front wheel and note handling characteristics.
Step 2: Replace front fork and wheel with 650c, and swap bars for cow horns, and repeat test ride.

Results:
If it rides like a pig with the 700c front wheel, then it is most likely and old 80s funny bike.
If it rides like a drunken pig on speed with the 650c front wheel, then it is absolutely an old 80s funny bike.

(On a more serious note, it could legitimately be either 650 or 700c TT frame as Cougar made both in the late 80s and early 90s)

Image
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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby funnybike » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:06 pm

Looking at the revised pics with wheels, I am going to guess that it is a 90s TT frame with 700c front wheel.
Do a google search on Chris Boardman and you'll see him riding a number of Cougars around that time.
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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby BRLVR.v2 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:08 pm

usernameforme wrote: It also appears to me that it takes 700c wheels, I had a spare brake handy and it matches up


I think you may have missed the point of what funnybike is saying. if it originally had a a 650 front only it would account for the different fork that is now a 700c. Take the rear out and measure the space between dropouts. If it's 126 then it's older than you think perhaps. 130 is the common standard now. I saw this on gumtree, and could tell it was a tiny frame and way too small for me.Hope you are a shorty. look forward to seeing it built.
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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby Dan » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:11 pm

funnybike wrote:Measure the distance between the rear tips. Probably 126mm, indicating frame is pre-1989 when 130mm spacing began. (not a certainty though)
Yes the very short top tube would seem to fit the theory that it is a funny bike with a 700c fork substitute.
To find out for sure, try the following test:
Step 1: Take it for a ride with a 700c front wheel and note handling characteristics.
Step 2: Replace front fork and wheel with 650c, and swap bars for cow horns, and repeat test ride.

Results:
If it rides like a pig with the 700c front wheel, then it is most likely and old 80s funny bike.
If it rides like a drunken pig on speed with the 650c front wheel, then it is absolutely an old 80s funny bike.


like OMGosh lolz
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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby Dan » Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:25 pm

goddamn autocorrect kid filter. where's the fun?
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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby usernameforme » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:13 pm

BRLVR.v2 wrote:If it's 126 then it's older than you think perhaps. 130 is the common standard now. I saw this on gumtree, and could tell it was a tiny frame and way too small for me.Hope you are a shorty. look forward to seeing it built.


The space between the drop-outs is 130mm even... does this mean its 700c on both wheels?

I'm 166cm so I assume it fits me

And on the subject of building it, I was going to build it up as a beater/rain bike... sounds like this isn't the 'right' way to treat this frame, especially if the 853 sticker is genuine

another quick q, how likely/unlikely is it that this is the original fork?

Some more info:
takes a 27.2mm seatpost
no serial number on BB (should I be expecting one?)
has a Campagnolo Chorus headset and Cinelli criterium handle-bars, would these be stock?
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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby BRLVR.v2 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:24 pm

usernameforme wrote:The space between the drop-outs is 130mm even... does this mean its 700c on both wheels?



No , it just means that the rear is spaced for a modern hub and axle so it's probably post 90. You said you had trouble fitting a wheel , so we assumed it may be 126 is all. being as you are 20cm shorter than me , yes it probably will be a fit for for you. if you got it for the advertised price or lowballed it even more then don't fret about it, just build it as you intended and ride it.
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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby usernameforme » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:49 pm

BRLVR.v2 wrote:You said you had trouble fitting a wheel , so we assumed it may be 126 is all.


I did initially have trouble, when I tried again it slipped on quite easily :? perhaps I was just being myself :lol:

back to the fork, I was told it was a SUNN 1" Aluminium Straight Power Fork, so as some said it is probably something the original owner changed. Does anyone know anything about this fork?
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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby Velo13 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:14 pm

usernameforme wrote:
BRLVR.v2 wrote:You said you had trouble fitting a wheel , so we assumed it may be 126 is all.


I did initially have trouble, when I tried again it slipped on quite easily :? perhaps I was just being myself :lol:

back to the fork, I was told it was a SUNN 1" Aluminium Straight Power Fork, so as some said it is probably something the original owner changed. Does anyone know anything about this fork?


SUNN was a French brand from the mid-late 90s. Very minor market share in the UK when I arrived (98) and I think they closed up in 99.

They did lots of wacky stuff, like their top of the range XC bike had a suspension fork with 1 inch travel (literally) and proudly marketed as such. For some reason they thought it was superior to everyone else's 60mm+ forks.

I had a steel road bike of theirs bought new with 9s 105 and only a right hand STI, plus a downtube lever on the left. It was super light though.

I doubt the fork is the original one. I thought Cougar was one of the UK mailorder brands? A bit like Ribble?
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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby usernameforme » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:37 pm

I've just confirmed that the fork was not the original. The original was a "curve 853" if that makes sense to anyone. I assume 853 refers to the material and curve would be the model?
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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby BRLVR.v2 » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:38 pm

similar

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Re: help me identify this frame

Postby funnybike » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:24 am

The other thing that dates this bike is the gear cable guides. This style didn't emerge until the 90s when STI/Ergo levers became the standard and the old style shift lever bosses went the way of the dodo.

I would agree with other comments that the fork is probably not original, but that's no big deal as it was at this time when we all took our steel forks off our road bikes and started buying after market aluminium and carbon replacements. pity it's a bit of an odd colour though.

As for using it as a beater, it is going to be a bit short unless you have unusually short torso and arms. TT specific frames of that time had very short top tubes as they were designed for use with cow horn bars and aero bars. The measurements you posted demonstrate this. On a normal road frame the top tube is likely to be within 1cm of the length of the seat tube (generally). You might need an extra long stem to get even close to a 'normal' position, and even then it's probably not going to handle very well for your intended purpose. Sorry.
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