New wheels won't fit on old bike

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New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby __PG__ » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:51 pm

Can anyone tell me why my new wheels won't fit on my current bike?

I'm not too fussed, as the wheels are for my new frame, however I was planning on riding the wheels for a while until the frame is ready.
The front wheel is fine.
The rear wheel won't fit in the rear drop-outs. The spacing is fine (130 mm) but the end sections of the hub is slightly too thick to fit inside the drop-outs.

The new wheels have Alchemy hubs. The current wheels have Shimano Ultegra 600 hubs.

Was there a new 'standard' change in rear hub/axle sizing that I wasn't aware of?
Here is a picture of the drop-out.
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by BNA » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:02 pm

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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby Nobody » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:02 pm

Time to start filing the old frame then...
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby drubie » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:55 am

Nobody wrote:Time to start filing the old frame then...


+1 - file the dropout until the axle slides in there. It won't be much (1mm max) and nobody will know if you do it carefully.

Forks (especially rubbish stamped dropout forks rather than forged dropouts) are the worst for some reason. Good frames seem to fit everything, the worse the frame, the tighter the fit. Not sure how that works exactly.
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby rkelsen » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:09 am

I'd file down the axle instead of the frame. You can replace an axle. You can't "unfile" a dropout.

I thought rear axles were a standard size? It sounds odd, anyway.

Drubie, some old racers had smaller front axles. Usually the K-mart specials. And even with those I'd file the axles to fit rather than vice-versa.
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby ironhanglider » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:49 pm

Definitely odd.

I presume that you have confirmed that it is the axle size that is different by measurement. I'd also prefer filing a flat spot on the axle (and always installing the flat uppermost) to filing the dropout. The one I could see in the photo looked pretty parallel anyway.

A slightly left field possibility. Is the smallest cog on your cassette bigger than the previous one? The reason that I ask is that adjustable dropouts had pretty much died out by the 90's which was when cassette hubs and 130mm spacing became common. If it was not designed for cassette hubs it is possible that the smallest cog is interfering with the tail end of the chainstay and just making life awkward. My tandem frame is a 126mm which I spring out to 130mm, but I discovered that I have to have an 11T smallest cog because the 12T interfered too much.

Cheers,

Cameron
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby __PG__ » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:18 pm

Interesting. The cassette on the new wheel is a 13-26. My current cassette is a 12-25. I'll check to see if that is the issue, because the non-drive side dropout seems to be fine. It's jamming on the drive side.

I took it into Cecil Walker and they suggested that it was most likely a bit of corrosion on the drop out. They suggested a 'very gentle' filing to smooth it over. That drive-side drop out has had a bit of rust on it.

I'll also double-check the hub axle diameters.
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby il padrone » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:26 pm

Have you checked that the drop-outs are parallel? If the frame has been given a dodgy home re-spacing from 126mm to 130mm, they may not have re-set the drop-outs and this would leave the inner part of the axle slot slightly too narrow, hence preventing you easily slotting the axle in.

Just a thought.
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby __PG__ » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:46 am

I bought the frame new so I've never changed the spacing myself. The lateral spacing looks fine. It's possible one of the drop-outs may have bent slightly over time.
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby master6 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:42 am

Have you tested fitment of the axle in the dropout by locating the wheel outside the chainstays; ie rear wheel either side of the frame.?
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby Dan » Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:08 am

__PG__ wrote:Interesting. The cassette on the new wheel is a 13-26. My current cassette is a 12-25. I'll check to see if that is the issue, because the non-drive side dropout seems to be fine. It's jamming on the drive side.


I suspect the marginal difference in diameter from switching to a 13T outer sprocket is the problem - the teeth are most likely pressing slightly against the seat stay? If so, try the old 12-25 cassette again.
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby master6 » Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:11 am

master6 wrote:Have you tested fitment of the axle in the dropout by locating the wheel outside the chainstays; ie rear wheel either side of the frame.?

I note comments about small cog size.
Simple test:-
Will the wheel fit if no cassette is on the hub?


I use a 10 speed in an older steel frame, and yes, the teeth on the small cog foul the chainstay during wheel fitment. Simple solution is to unscrew the spindle adjustment a cuople of turns, and spread the frame a couple of mm while sliding the wheel in.
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby __PG__ » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:11 pm

Well I got it in. The axle on the new hub (Alchemy) was a fraction thicker than the existing Ultegra hub. By that I mean about 0.1 mm difference. The issue seemed to be caused by some excess anti-rust primer that I've applied over the years, and the softening of the drop-out around the existing axles. This had created an uneven surface at the drop-outs. We (i.e. Dad and I) filed off the excess primer and managed to get a smoother face. We checked the height of the drop-out slot on the inside and outside to check we were filing 'flat' . Seems to be OK now.
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby __PG__ » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:50 am

Anyone want to talk about open-cam skewers in sloping drop-outs?

Have ridden the new wheels a few times and it has come loose a few times. I think I'll stick with my existing skewer (Shimano 600 Ultegra) for the old frame, and leave the KCNC skewer for the new frame with its vertical dropout.
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby familyguy » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:33 am

__PG__ wrote:Anyone want to talk about open-cam skewers in sloping drop-outs?

Have ridden the new wheels a few times and it has come loose a few times. I think I'll stick with my existing skewer (Shimano 600 Ultegra) for the old frame, and leave the KCNC skewer for the new frame with its vertical dropout.


Good idea. They don't work 100% on longer dropouts. Makers sell them cause they look cool and are a touch lighter.

The open-design skewers on my Miche wheels were passable on long dropouts, but you really had to crank them shut. Same as these:
Image

I now use older Ultegra hubs with these skewers. They're not stupidly tight, and they've never budged:
Image

Jim
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby rkelsen » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:53 pm

familyguy wrote:They don't work 100% on longer dropouts.

What this man said.

Open cam skewers don't clamp or grip as well as old-school steel closed cam units. This is especially noticeable when you use them with forged horizontal/sloping dropouts.
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby Nobody » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:58 pm

My 105 and XT skewers seem to do OK in the Surly sloping dropouts. You shouldn't have trouble with the 600 skewers, but if you do, I've found trainer skewers work well and are cheap.
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Re: New wheels won't fit on old bike

Postby __PG__ » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:15 am

Put the old skewer on rode in this morning with the new wheels. I gave them a real thrashing and the axle didn't budge.

New wheels are nice too. I have lost about half a kilogram of weight for the set, and the rear seems a bit stiffer too when out of the saddle.
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