How not to run a road safety campaign

Equipment and On Road Behaviour, Laws and Rules. Cycling Promotion and Advocacy

Re: How not to run a road safety campaign

Postby Xplora » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:18 pm

I feel sad that you are incapable of making a decision at an intersection with a traffic light... what are you supposed to do when the light is out? You proceed with caution. Just as you do any other time.

I've gone through a red. It was a day in hospital for my trouble. 4 months ago this week. I know the consequences... and I still think you're ridiculous. The Road Rules are a pitiful excuse for people to behave badly, and the obscenity that many riders have to endure from lawabiding bastards is disgusting. A heartfelt obsession with lights doesn't improve anything for anyone. If we stopped at every red, we'd be hogging the road going too slow, or dressing indecently in lycra. It's just an excuse.
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by BNA » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:35 pm

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Re: How not to run a road safety campaign

Postby biker jk » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:35 pm

I don't care about how many motor vehicles go through red lights. This is a red herring (no pun intended). How can I be critical of bad driving which risks injuring or killing cyclists if as a rider I regularly ride through red lights and break the law. Once you argue that you don't need to obey the road rules due to x, y or z reason then Pandora's Box is opened. It's not a winning argument in any respect.
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Re: How not to run a road safety campaign

Postby human909 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:44 pm

biker jk wrote:How can I be critical of bad driving which risks injuring or killing cyclists if as a rider I regularly ride through red lights and break the law.

Because dangerous driving/riding and breaking a road rule are two totally different things. I'm critical of behaviour that is unsafe and dangerous towards others. I'm not critical of breaking a road rule that doesn't endanger nor inconvenience anybody.

biker jk wrote:Once you argue that you don't need to obey the road rules due to x, y or z reason then Pandora's Box is opened. It's not a winning argument in any respect.

I'm not arguing that I don't "need" to obey the road rules (whatever "need" means). We all have the choice. If that choice is harmless then where is the objection?
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Re: How not to run a road safety campaign

Postby Philipthelam » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:03 pm

Xplora wrote:I feel sad that you are incapable of making a decision at an intersection with a traffic light... what are you supposed to do when the light is out? You proceed with caution. Just as you do any other time.


Another strawman comment. You just made that up because I made a point didn't I. You go on about safety so I say how does going through a red light to save time have anything to do with being safer for the cyclist?

Xplora wrote:I've gone through a red. It was a day in hospital for my trouble. 4 months ago this week. I know the consequences... and I still think you're ridiculous. The Road Rules are a pitiful excuse for people to behave badly, and the obscenity that many riders have to endure from lawabiding bastards is disgusting. A heartfelt obsession with lights doesn't improve anything for anyone. If we stopped at every red, we'd be hogging the road going too slow, or dressing indecently in lycra. It's just an excuse.


I feel sad as well. You have gone through a red light and have gotten hit... and yet you still go through red lights. I thought people were meant to learn from their mistakes...

I guess survival of the fittest and natural selection will kick in someday.

... and that's the last I'm posting in this thread. It's going no where.
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Re: How not to run a road safety campaign

Postby ldrcycles » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:06 pm

Just a personal observation re red lights, on my ride this morning there was one that had a "left turn at any time if safe" lane, turned there, then did a u turn and took the next "turn left.." lane, red light avoided, no rules broken.

Or the other one where i just took the footpath around it, again perfectly within the law (at least in QLD). As i see it, if you're going hard enough you should see most red lights as a welcome opportunity to rest :D .
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Re: How not to run a road safety campaign

Postby Xplora » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:04 pm

ldrcycles wrote: i just took the footpath around it, again perfectly within the law

If the aim was to make cyclists look good and lawabiding, this behaviour won't do it... most drivers would be spitting chips that you could do that and get away with it. They aren't interested in how much you obey the law. They are interested in how you damage their sense of entitlement.

Phil, you decided to play the man, and you are unlikely to win that way, because I look past the comments - you have a desperate need to obey the rules despite it achieving nothing.
You think that going through the red was the thing that undid me - that's the laughable thing, surely. Very poor decisionmaking undid me. The colour of the light is irrelevent if a car is in front of your bike at 40kmh. This is something that can happen at greens, and even intersections WITHOUT LIGHTS :shock:
I feel sorry that you lack such confidence on the roads. You must if you can't make a decision without a sign telling you what to do :idea:
Survival of the fittest does kick in. All the deadbeats who refuse to exercise end up dead about 30 years before I probably will. No fat 80 year olds.
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Re: How not to run a road safety campaign

Postby GraemeL » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:58 am

human909 wrote:
biker jk wrote:How can I be critical of bad driving which risks injuring or killing cyclists if as a rider I regularly ride through red lights and break the law.

Because dangerous driving/riding and breaking a road rule are two totally different things. I'm critical of behaviour that is unsafe and dangerous towards others. I'm not critical of breaking a road rule that doesn't endanger nor inconvenience anybody.

biker jk wrote:Once you argue that you don't need to obey the road rules due to x, y or z reason then Pandora's Box is opened. It's not a winning argument in any respect.

I'm not arguing that I don't "need" to obey the road rules (whatever "need" means). We all have the choice. If that choice is harmless then where is the objection?


It's harmless because the rest of us abide by the current laws. If everyone took the same view what would happen?
You think running a red is harmless, a driver thinks driving down the wrong side of the road is harmless, a pedestrian thinks walking down the middle of the road is harmless. It doesn't stop there, someone uses your lawnmower or your car or your bike, it's not hurting you because you werent using them at the time. Where does it end?

If everyone had your attitude there would be kaos.


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Re: How not to run a road safety campaign

Postby human909 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:34 am

GraemeL wrote:It's harmless because the rest of us abide by the current laws.

No it is harmless because going through a red light when nobody is around doesn't harm anybody.

GraemeL wrote:If everyone took the same view what would happen?

Um, people would get home quicker? In fact it does seem like a fair sized proportion DO take the same view when their pedestrians.

GraemeL wrote:You think running a red is harmless

I KNOW running a red light when there is not a person/vehicle around is harmless.

GraemeL wrote:a driver thinks driving down the wrong side of the road is harmless, a pedestrian thinks walking down the middle of the road is harmless. It doesn't stop there, someone uses your lawnmower or your car or your bike, it's not hurting you because you werent using them at the time. Where does it end?

Oh "the old running a red light at night leads to theft argument". :lol:

GraemeL wrote:If everyone had your attitude there would be kaos.

And if everybody had your attitude there would be CONTROL. :wink:
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Re: How not to run a road safety campaign

Postby Xplora » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:00 am

There are no property rights for public infrastructure. Your lawnmower example would be better described with a park playground. If you used the park at 3am in the morning, no one would be affected, even if there was a sign saying "don't use the park after midnight". I am all for copyright laws and similar property rights but the traffic lights are not the same. It's about control and permission in a public place that doesn't cause harm to others.
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Re: How not to run a road safety campaign

Postby Lukeyboy » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:01 pm

wellington_street wrote:
human909 wrote:Regarding running red lights.... Its not a safety campaign, it is an obedience campaign.


You can say the same about any road rule for any type of vehicle at some point in time. The point of rules is to ensure predictable behaviour on the roads and avoid the creation of ambiguous or dangerous situations.

If I drive a car through a red light when there's no other traffic, is that OK? How about drive down the wrong side of the road at 2am when there's nobody around? Or go the wrong way around the roundabout? Or drive 60km/h over the speed limit on the freeway when I'm the only vehicle in sight?

All perfectly 'safe' behaviour that is very much illegal for a reason.


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Re: How not to run a road safety campaign

Postby human909 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:37 am

wellington_street wrote:If I drive a car through a red light when there's no other traffic, is that OK? How about drive down the wrong side of the road at 2am when there's nobody around? Or go the wrong way around the roundabout? Or drive 60km/h over the speed limit on the freeway when I'm the only vehicle in sight?


I have no problems with any of those activities. I would hope by now everybody has realised that. 8)

Driving on the "wrong side of the road", ie not keeping left as practicable. That sounds like an excellent example of a law that I expect everyone breaks quite often when there is not another car in sight. Have you ever not been "as left a practical while cycling down a suburban street? Yep, you are breaking a law. :wink:

Lets not get all righteous. If your actions illegal are harmless then what is the issue?
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Re: How not to run a road safety campaign

Postby GraemeL » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:52 am

human909 wrote:
GraemeL wrote:a driver thinks driving down the wrong side of the road is harmless, a pedestrian thinks walking down the middle of the road is harmless. It doesn't stop there, someone uses your lawnmower or your car or your bike, it's not hurting you because you werent using them at the time. Where does it end?

Oh "the old running a red light at night leads to theft argument". :lol:


It's not theft, I think theft is a stupid law. You aren't using your car, lawnmower, bike etc I haven't harmed you or inconvenienced you at all, so no harm done.

If you ignore the law and think running a red is ok, then others should be allowed to choose what laws they want to ignore.

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Re: How not to run a road safety campaign

Postby human909 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:06 am

GraemeL wrote:It's not theft, I think theft is a stupid law.

That is an odd position to take Graeme. Personally I think it is good that theft and running red lights is against the law.

GraemeL wrote:If you ignore the law and think running a red is ok, then others should be allowed to choose what laws they want to ignore.

Others are allowed to choose what laws they ignore. But we have a justice system in place to punish that. :wink:
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