1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

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1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby Oltre » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:32 pm

So, I finally have my very first tubular wheelset - some FFWD F6R with DT Swiss 240s hubs + Verdestein Fortezza TriComp tyres and Velox Jantax Competition 76 tapes.

Purchase price? The lot for $1,240 delivered... compared to the RRP $1,899 that the local distributor wants from you for the wheelset alone (you do the maths, then add questionable product knowledge and marketing by this mob, at least in my case). The best part my wheels came from an Australian shop!

Anyway, I would appreciate some guidance on the following please:

1) Is the Velox Jantax up to the job for high-speed road riding? Also, road summer temperatures here often soar past 40C, so is this tape suitable with this heat?

2) How long should I allow for the tyre and tape to sit once fitted? In other words, how soon can they be ridden after installation?

3) Can the new cassette be fitted to its hub body dry without lubrication?

4) Recommended tyre pressure for normal use and racing?
(I am only 75kg and tyres are rated up to 200psi)

5) Any particular tips and hints with tubs?
- I know already about pre-stretching (which I will do only by inflating the unglued tyre to the rim first)
- I will also have dedicated SwissStop FlashPro yellow pads for this wheelset.

I know that glue is the alternative but I am attracted to the convenience of rim tape, plus I got given 2 sets for free with the wheels anyway.

Input from first hand experience very valued - I've otherwise seen a few Youtube videos but they mostly contradict one another!

In case I don't reply to all, thanks in advance :)
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by BNA » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:17 pm

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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby antipodean » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:17 pm

All your questions will be answered here.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... =3&t=72309
You will find most advise to use glue not tape but do some reading and make your own decision.
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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:41 pm

I used tape on my road wheels without any, problems as far as rolling the tubs off. :wink: In saying that, I can't comment on the tape of today. Even when puncturing and placing the spare on, I never had a problem. :)

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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby Oltre » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:56 pm

I knew I could count on some help here, thankyou :)

And should others ever come across this thread, also found these links:


May experiment with rear tyre first... tape on, pump tyre unglued for 24 hours, before glueing tyre and letting it stick for another 24 hours.

If anyone wishes to answer my previous questions or give their opinion, please do!
Last edited by Oltre on Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby jcjordan » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:28 pm

Unless your racing tri you need to glue your tubs. Tape is just not sticky enough to handle the hard courners in crits and road races.

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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby Oltre » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:30 pm

Thanks James... wish I had a Vespa in case the tape fails!
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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby jcjordan » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:41 pm

I runs tubs for both training and racing with no problems.

Get yourself a couple of containers of Tufo extreme sealent and a CO2 inflation device. Get a puncture pop it in inflate and off you go.

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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby orbeas » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:36 pm

Im using selleys quik grip for gluing tubulars on to rims ..Durace
a 100ml tube is approx $9 and 50mls will do two tubular wheels.
prep rim sufaces (then using a narrow paint brush)brush tubs and rim with glue(even surface of glue all round) let get a little sticky then fit prestreched tub onto rim.
One wheel at a time..
when finnished throw brush into the bin..the brush cost less than $3 and keeps your fingers from sticking together 8)
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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:23 am

Another thing with the tape, when I was using it on my road wheels I would wet it before placing strip on as this allowed you to centre it first a bit easier and once you pumped it up, it would push out the beads of water. :wink:

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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby jcjordan » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:10 am

orbeas wrote:Im using selleys quik grip for gluing tubulars on to rims ..Durace
a 100ml tube is approx $9 and 50mls will do two tubular wheels.
prep rim sufaces (then using a narrow paint brush)brush tubs and rim with glue(even surface of glue all round) let get a little sticky then fit prestreched tub onto rim.
One wheel at a time..
when finnished throw brush into the bin..the brush cost less than $3 and keeps your fingers from sticking together 8)

I am not to sure about quick grip. I normally use either the conti or victtoria. Don't use the velox stuff its really messy and takes a long time to dry properly

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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:12 pm

I used contact cement for the last 6-7yrs of my racing with no dramas. :)

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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby jcjordan » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:57 pm

foo on patrol wrote:I used contact cement for the last 6-7yrs of my racing with no dramas. :)

Foo


Interesting. It's the first time I have ever come across it. I have seen shellac used on track wheels but you are otherwise the only other person not using tub specific glue.

If it works I agree don't stuff with it.

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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby ironhanglider » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:55 pm

Oltre wrote:So, I finally have my very first tubular wheelset - some FFWD F6R with DT Swiss 240s hubs + Verdestein Fortezza TriComp tyres and Velox Jantax Competition 76 tapes.

Purchase price? The lot for $1,240 delivered... compared to the RRP $1,899 that the local distributor wants from you for the wheelset alone (you do the maths, then add questionable product knowledge and marketing by this mob, at least in my case). The best part my wheels came from an Australian shop!

Anyway, I would appreciate some guidance on the following please:

1) Is the Velox Jantax up to the job for high-speed road riding? Also, road summer temperatures here often soar past 40C, so is this tape suitable with this heat?

Sort of. I used Jantex tape in the 80's so I don't know how it compares now. I found that when it got old it lost all grip, so even if you don't puncture it is probably worth pulling tyres off cleaning them up and re-installing them every 6 months or so. I changed to carpet tape for a while which was much better but heavier. I then settled on glueing which is best of all. 40C won't affect you, but higher temps are generated by braking sometimes which may be more of an issue.

2) How long should I allow for the tyre and tape to sit once fitted? In other words, how soon can they be ridden after installation?

They can be ridden straight away but I wouldn't be cornering hard on them for a couple of days.


3) Can the new cassette be fitted to its hub body dry without lubrication?

Yes


4) Recommended tyre pressure for normal use and racing? (I am only 75kg and tyres are rated up to 200psi)

Depends on the road surface. 80-90 on the front 90-100 on the rear. Perhaps up to 10psi more in ideal conditions such as smooth dry hot-mix. 200psi is not a useful pressure for road riding.

5) Any particular tips and hints with tubs?

Tubulars squeeze themselves onto the rim when inflated. This means that at 100-110psi they will actually hold onto the rim pretty well without glue, try inflating a tubular on a wheel and pushing it off with your fingers. Someone on rec.bicycles.tech (Carl Fogel maybe) once did some sums and demonstrated that in ordinary cornering the forces on the tyre are all contained within the width of the rim and that adhesives are not required to hold the tyre on :shock: ... in normal circumstances. The problem is when the wheel gets an unexpected sideways movement, because that is when you rely on the adhesion to hold your tyre on. Typical examples are hitting a bump or touching a pedal in a corner which cause the tyres to lose contact with the ground momentarily. This is why many riders can 'get away with' poorly stuck on tyres for a long time, because that circumstance hasn't happened yet, and they believe that they are safe. This knowledge will also come in handy if you puncture because unless you carry around a roll of tape with you, you will be riding home on an unglued spare since the tape sticks to the tyre better than to the rim. More recent rolling resistance studies have put numbers behind what trackies have known for a long time, that really well stuck on tyres roll faster than poorly stuck on ones. Tape may be more convenient than glue for application but once the tyre is stuck on it has no advantages.

Carry a spare, puncture sealant gunk doesn't always work. Spare tubulars will also get someone else home on a clincher rim if they have a tyre failure.

Don't mix adhesives, choose your brand and stick to it if you have used one for one rim you'll have to clean it off, tyres are harder to clean since you shouldn't use solvents. I prefer Vittoria glue, it allows a bit more working time than Continental.

Buy spares when they're cheap. Some say that they puncture less when they are aged, even if they don't they don't storing them in the dark for a year or two certainly doesn't hurt them. If you can store them on a rim that is even better since the tyre will be pre-stretched when you need it. Even a clincher rim can be used for this purpose.

Continental tubulars are known to be a tight fit. Soaking them in water loosens up the cotton base tape and makes it easier to put them on a rim for stretching.


I know that glue is the alternative but I am attracted to the convenience of rim tape, plus I got given 2 sets for free with the wheels anyway.

Input from first hand experience very valued - I've otherwise seen a few Youtube videos but they mostly contradict one another!

In case I don't reply to all, thanks in advance :)
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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby foo on patrol » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:54 pm

jcjordan wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:I used contact cement for the last 6-7yrs of my racing with no dramas. :)

Foo


Interesting. It's the first time I have ever come across it. I have seen shellac used on track wheels but you are otherwise the only other person not using tub specific glue.

If it works I agree don't stuff with it.

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This was back in the 70/80s and it was common then. I had a single that still had one glued on 2yrs ago and it took some grunt to remove it.

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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby AndrewBurns » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:18 pm

Ugh I decided to have a go at tubulars on some new track wheels just then and I never want to do it again.

50mm carbon tubular track wheels from farsports, vittoria evo pista tubulars stretched over the rim and inflated for two days, continental carbon specific glue.

The tyres were pretty easy to get onto the rims, I lightly sanded the rims and cleaned them with a cloth. I followed the continental glue instructions which specify one layer of glue on the rims and two on the tyres (the second layer on the tyres being the one that sticks everything down), leaving about 6 hours between applications. I don't have anything to compare against but from what I read the Conti carbon specific glue is thicker than other tubular glues so you don't do multiple thin coats and it dries super fast so you don't get much working time. From my experience that seems correct, the glue would go tacky in maybe 30 seconds. The base tape on the tyres soaked up a lot of glue so I ended up using a full two 25mL tubes to do two wheels. The glue dried so fast that it was tacky at the start of each wheel by the time I got to the end.

I watched a few youtube videos and had a go at sticking the tyres down just now and the glue just gave no working time at all, as soon as the the tyre snapped onto the rim (which I didn't find all that hard to do) it really didn't want to move at all. I had to really dig in my fingers and rip the whole tyre up off the glue and try to shift it from side to side to correct weaving in the tread which was a miserably difficult process and I ended up tearing the skin under my thumbnails away and giving myself a painful blister in the process. I managed to get both tyres on acceptably straight after a while and I think I did an ok job though maybe a little dry, don't know :S I used all the glue I had basically. The front tyre has a pretty substantial radial runout but I can't see why, the base tape looks to be glued down nice and evenly along both edges all the way around so either the rim has a high spot or the tyre expands a bit at one point; either way I can't do much about it now.

I have both curing at ~120 psi now and I'm hoping to get down to the track with them on Monday but I'm kinda worried about how well they're glued on (it being my first time and after how much trouble I had mounting them).
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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:41 pm

You can try and roll them by hand at race pressure before riding, if you're worried Andrew. :idea:

I can't help you with these new (for me) glues or carbon specific glues and what to expect if when stuffing up. It was much simpler back in my day. :oops: :lol:
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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby Oltre » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:06 pm

Speaking of firsts, the Velox tape is now holding both tyres and I have had no drama on my mayden rides - last weekend rear only, today both on.

I wonder if I have set them properly and blame every tiny vibration on the tyres, but visually everything is spot on and the tyre is ridigly affixed.

Whether all of this is worth it relative to clinches is still a moot point, though the carbon wheels (60mm FFWD) at above 35km/h spins like there is nothing there compared to my DA CL24's, and the ride is suprisingly supple (picked 175psi at random).
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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby ironhanglider » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:03 pm

AndrewBurns wrote:Ugh I decided to have a go at tubulars on some new track wheels just then and I never want to do it again.

50mm carbon tubular track wheels from farsports, vittoria evo pista tubulars stretched over the rim and inflated for two days, continental carbon specific glue.
...

I ended up tearing the skin under my thumbnails away and giving myself a painful blister in the process. I managed to get both tyres on acceptably straight after a while and I think I did an ok job though maybe a little dry, don't know :S I used all the glue I had basically. The front tyre has a pretty substantial radial runout but I can't see why, the base tape looks to be glued down nice and evenly along both edges all the way around so either the rim has a high spot or the tyre expands a bit at one point; either way I can't do much about it now.

I have both curing at ~120 psi now and I'm hoping to get down to the track with them on Monday but I'm kinda worried about how well they're glued on (it being my first time and after how much trouble I had mounting them).


Carbon specific glue is apparently designed to be more resistant to heat since carbon rims will heat up more in heavy braking, not a consideration for track wheels. Is the radial bump at the valve? This is common enough. People often enlarge or countersink the top valve hole, or trim some of the excess material away from the valve stem or both to try to reduce this.

I agree with Foo, pump your tyres up to race pressure and just try to remove them by hand. You will do more than get a blister on your thumb but it should inspire confidence.

Cheers,

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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby ironhanglider » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:09 pm

Oltre wrote:Speaking of firsts, the Velox tape is now holding both tyres and I have had no drama on my mayden rides - last weekend rear only, today both on.

I wonder if I have set them properly and blame every tiny vibration on the tyres, but visually everything is spot on and the tyre is ridigly affixed.

Whether all of this is worth it relative to clinches is still a moot point, though the carbon wheels (60mm FFWD) at above 35km/h spins like there is nothing there compared to my DA CL24's, and the ride is suprisingly supple (picked 175psi at random).


Choose a more reasonable pressure and feel the difference. You will go faster, corner better and finish fresher. 1 Bar per 10kg bodyweight will be about right, less for the front.

Cheers,

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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby Oltre » Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:05 pm

Thanks Cameron, but I don't think that would work. My Vredestein Fortezza TriComp tubular is rated at 8 to 14 Bar (116 to 203 psi)
http://vredestein.com/two-wheel-tyres/race/pro-competition-line/fortezza-pro-tricomp/specifications/.

Using 1 bar/kg would mean 7.5 (108psi) for me, running lower than recommended. I picked 175psi or 12 Bar as a random upper range pressure.

Am I missing something?
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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby jacks1071 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:57 am

AndrewBurns wrote:Ugh I decided to have a go at tubulars on some new track wheels just then and I never want to do it again.

50mm carbon tubular track wheels from farsports, vittoria evo pista tubulars stretched over the rim and inflated for two days, continental carbon specific glue.

The tyres were pretty easy to get onto the rims, I lightly sanded the rims and cleaned them with a cloth. I followed the continental glue instructions which specify one layer of glue on the rims and two on the tyres (the second layer on the tyres being the one that sticks everything down), leaving about 6 hours between applications. I don't have anything to compare against but from what I read the Conti carbon specific glue is thicker than other tubular glues so you don't do multiple thin coats and it dries super fast so you don't get much working time. From my experience that seems correct, the glue would go tacky in maybe 30 seconds. The base tape on the tyres soaked up a lot of glue so I ended up using a full two 25mL tubes to do two wheels. The glue dried so fast that it was tacky at the start of each wheel by the time I got to the end.

I watched a few youtube videos and had a go at sticking the tyres down just now and the glue just gave no working time at all, as soon as the the tyre snapped onto the rim (which I didn't find all that hard to do) it really didn't want to move at all. I had to really dig in my fingers and rip the whole tyre up off the glue and try to shift it from side to side to correct weaving in the tread which was a miserably difficult process and I ended up tearing the skin under my thumbnails away and giving myself a painful blister in the process. I managed to get both tyres on acceptably straight after a while and I think I did an ok job though maybe a little dry, don't know :S I used all the glue I had basically. The front tyre has a pretty substantial radial runout but I can't see why, the base tape looks to be glued down nice and evenly along both edges all the way around so either the rim has a high spot or the tyre expands a bit at one point; either way I can't do much about it now.

I have both curing at ~120 psi now and I'm hoping to get down to the track with them on Monday but I'm kinda worried about how well they're glued on (it being my first time and after how much trouble I had mounting them).


Everyone has their own method for gluing tubulars.

From your description I'd say you insufficiently stretched the tyres.

I put them onto the rims, pump up to MAX PSI - re-pump them everyday as they loose a lot of pressure if they are good ones with latex tubes, so everyday pump them back up to the max rating for a good week and they'll go on easier and with heaps less mess. 1-2 days isn't enough unless you've got forearms like popeye.
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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby AndrewBurns » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:04 pm

Thanks for the advice Jacks I'll try stretching them longer and at higher pressure in the future.

On second inspection I think they'll be fine. Having latex tubes they'd dropped from 120 to 60 psi over two days so I grabbed the rim and tried to force the tyres off with both thumbs. The tyre just kinda shifted sideways but the base tape remained perfectly stuck down no matter how hard I tried. At 120+ psi I don't think there's any way they're coming off during normal track riding (especially seeing as I'm a newbie who will be riding quite sedately for a while yet).
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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby jacks1071 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:11 pm

AndrewBurns wrote:Thanks for the advice Jacks I'll try stretching them longer and at higher pressure in the future.

On second inspection I think they'll be fine. Having latex tubes they'd dropped from 120 to 60 psi over two days so I grabbed the rim and tried to force the tyres off with both thumbs. The tyre just kinda shifted sideways but the base tape remained perfectly stuck down no matter how hard I tried. At 120+ psi I don't think there's any way they're coming off during normal track riding (especially seeing as I'm a newbie who will be riding quite sedately for a while yet).


I'd rip them off and re-do them if there was any doubt at all as to the quality of the glue job.

Sometimes you need to enlarge the valve hole in the rim on the tyre size by one drillbit side to allow the tyre to sit round where the valve hole is otherwise you can get a bump on some tyre/wheel combo's. I always try and remember to put some heat shrink over the valve stem which stops the annoying ticking noise you can otherwise get.

There a few little tricks with Tubulars but once you find what works for you, its very simple.
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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby jcjordan » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:50 am

AndrewBurns wrote:Thanks for the advice Jacks I'll try stretching them longer and at higher pressure in the future.

On second inspection I think they'll be fine. Having latex tubes they'd dropped from 120 to 60 psi over two days so I grabbed the rim and tried to force the tyres off with both thumbs. The tyre just kinda shifted sideways but the base tape remained perfectly stuck down no matter how hard I tried. At 120+ psi I don't think there's any way they're coming off during normal track riding (especially seeing as I'm a newbie who will be riding quite sedately for a while yet).


I will second the need for stretching.

My standard is to put a tub on a rim for at least 2 weeks prior and keep it at max pressure during that time.

Mind you I am also a fan of aging tires, especially tubs, for at least 12 months before use.
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Re: 1st TUBULARS - newbie in need of help...

Postby greyhoundtom » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:31 am

jcjordan wrote:
Mind you I am also a fan of aging tires, especially tubs, for at least 12 months before use.

With all the different compounds being used these day’s in the manufacture of tyres, would aging a tyre still have the same effect of making them wear better as it did 10/15 years ago?
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