Moron Motorists #3

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Aushiker » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:47 pm

human909 wrote:Statistics don't suggest that cycling is much more dangerous than driving, some measures suggest less. (Going by deaths per time, NOT the erroneous deaths per km)


I haven't seen any Australian research of note on this aspect so very interested in your sources. Care to share?

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by BNA » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:53 pm

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:53 pm

it's not clear cut that time is a more effective measure than distance. few people say "i'm going out driving for an hour!" they are heading to a destination, i.e. defined by distance. i certainly spend more time riding my bike than i would driving my car (if i had one) in the course of servicing my transport needs.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:21 pm

Aushiker wrote:
human909 wrote:Statistics don't suggest that cycling is much more dangerous than driving, some measures suggest less. (Going by deaths per time, NOT the erroneous deaths per km)


I haven't seen any Australian research of note on this aspect so very interested in your sources. Care to share?

Andrew


I've seen numerous figures. Here are some I just googled.

http://acrs.org.au/wp-content/uploads/A ... -WebLR.pdf

Car occupant 2.6 deaths per billion kilometres
Bicyclist 11.8 deaths per billion kilometres


Given average motorist speed throughout the day is about 41kph and cyclists are likely 15kph** we get. (**debatable, though most cyclists are not fast enthusiasts!)

Car occupant 106.6 deaths per billion hours.
Bicyclist 177 deaths per billion hours.


This figures are quite close on the scale of "riskiness". In the grand scheme of thing they are both approximately as likely as each other. A sensible scale of riskiness is of course logarithmic!
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Overseas research:
http://cyclehelmets.org/1026.html

jules21 wrote:it's not clear cut that time is a more effective measure than distance. few people say "i'm going out driving for an hour!" they are heading to a destination, i.e. defined by distance. i certainly spend more time riding my bike than i would driving my car (if i had one) in the course of servicing my transport needs.

People generally have commutes between 30mins and 1hour. It is well established through research that people job search and house search around this band. Cyclists ride far less kilometers on average than motorists drive.

Either my point was that they are at a similar point on the risk scales. This constant claim that cycling is very dangerous is bizarre. It's like many enthusiasts are proud of the fact. The roadID is symptomatic of this and is down right morbid. Participants in far more risky sports don't have such things.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby anonymousmoose » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:37 pm

human909 wrote:
anonymousmoose wrote:Its starting to sink in just how dangerous it is for us cyclists.

I hardly do go on the road and stick to bike paths, but I have been near-hit a few times. Just the other say I indicated to go left, there is no list the 4x4 could have missed seeing me, so he also turns left but AT THE SAME TIME overtaking and pushing me to the curb. I yelled but he just shook his head and gave the gesture that he was not in the wrong.

I think most of it is the drivers ACTUALLY BELIEVE they are in the right and that we dont belong on the road. Crazy!


I've been riding for a couple of decades. I rarely go on paths and ride mostly on the road. I haven't ever had a collision with another vehicle or a what I would consider a near miss. I dozen or so times I have had direct aggression towards me but beyond that riding on the roads has been incident free.

Don't get me wrong, driver attitude here towards cyclists is appalling. This makes cycling on roads more dangerous than it needs to be. But lets keep things in perspective please. Cycling is not dangerous, it has similar risks to driving.

Riding assertively and claiming your lane helps. In many incidents that I see posted in this thread the cyclist is too far left. Ride in the middle of your lane!


All I can say is what I've experienced... but I am also an inexperienced rider but do signal and keep out of motorists way. But in Perth, WA. Drivers are pretty darn bad to begin with. When I got my licence over a decade ago, I remember thinking how easy it was. Most drivers that I see doing absent-minded things are older than me. So I guess it was down to their education which was lacked. The dangerous drivers are the young ones but thats more idiotic behaviour, not bliss.

I did have a young man 'barking' at me like a dog out of the window the other week... it as more funny than bad.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Aushiker » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:06 am

Thankfully no one appears to be seriously hurt and no cyclists where involved but it really shows why one should not react. It can lead to this ...



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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:26 am

well that solved a lot!
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:59 pm

Got beeped by a SUV today because it thought it shouldn't have to move to the other lane (mostly empty) to overtake, this is at 6am and I'd been passed by 8 cars in 3 minutes or so. I pointed at the other lane, then patted and pointed at my camera. A normal overtake then ensued fortunately... Maybe they realised what the camera was. Or they were just a normal driver who doesn't understand the rules, but isn't psychopathic like some of the other ones I've had...

Further up the road some cars got in my way and held me up because I was going faster than them, which was very inconsiderate of them, so I AZ'd them, and did some tailgating, arm waving, shouted some abuse, and tried to force them off the road. (Not).
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Kenzo » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:03 pm

jules21 wrote:well that solved a lot!

It might solve a lot if the WA policy-makers come up with and pass road rage legislation .. especially if the legislation also covers rage directed toward cyclists and pedestrians.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jules21 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:04 pm

Kenzo wrote:
jules21 wrote:well that solved a lot!

It might solve a lot if the WA policy-makers come up with and pass road rage legislation .. especially if the legislation also covers rage directed toward cyclists and pedestrians.

i doubt it Kenzo. as usual, the cops won't take any action until someone is actually assaulted, in which case they don't need any special laws - it's assault. it would be useful if there was any actual intention to enforce road rage as we experience it - close passes, abuse, etc. but i don't see it happening.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby anonymousmoose » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:27 pm

jules21 wrote:
Kenzo wrote:
jules21 wrote:well that solved a lot!

It might solve a lot if the WA policy-makers come up with and pass road rage legislation .. especially if the legislation also covers rage directed toward cyclists and pedestrians.

i doubt it Kenzo. as usual, the cops won't take any action until someone is actually assaulted, in which case they don't need any special laws - it's assault. it would be useful if there was any actual intention to enforce road rage as we experience it - close passes, abuse, etc. but i don't see it happening.


I agree that it is unlikely to happen. Would be good if it did, but too much hear-say. Unless there are 3rd party witnesses or the police are there, who is telling the truth?
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Biffidus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:21 pm

human909 wrote:Statistics don't suggest that cycling is much more dangerous than driving, some measures suggest less. (Going by deaths per time, NOT the erroneous deaths per km) They are within an order of magnitude of each other, which given the extreme variation in riskiness of activities I would describe that as similar level of risk.

Most team sports have far greater levels of injuries, drownings result in far more deaths, there are more home maintenance accidents. Yet none of these activities are labelled as dangerous.


Woah deja vu, I thought I was back in the helmet thread for a second there.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Ross » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:05 am

Got cut off by a L plater on a yellow trail bike who turned left just in front of me without indicating then he blasted straight through a pedestrian crossing without looking/caring just as another cyclist was about to cross. No idea where he was off to in so much hurry at 5.30am...maybe on his way home from the pub?
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby twizzle » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:10 am

Nearly became a statistic this morning, doing 40kph in an on-road lane alongside traffic when a car about 10M ahead decided to indicate and do a slow turn into an entry-way under a building and didn't look in his mirror. I ride with the Ayups on (on - not flashing, and aimed straight ahead not at the road) along that section so that drivers can easily see me... this guy just didn't look. The rear wheel was locking up, the bike was getting sideways, guy who was just behind me only just pulled up in time as well. We are both screaming abuse... and the driver is looking out of his side window with this slack-jawed "what did I do?" look on his face. There are stacks of places along that road where I just assume people won't look, but this one really caught me out. On-road lanes and driveways and intersections just don't work when people don't know their obligations.

Overall, totally crappy day of riding - between the bus that floored it so he could pull in front of me and brake for a bus stop, the moron in the car and assorted idiots turning across in front of me at other intersections, there was nothing 'fun' about todays ride.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Ross » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:57 pm

twizzle wrote:Nearly became a statistic this morning, doing 40kph in an on-road lane alongside traffic when a car about 10M ahead decided to indicate and do a slow turn into an entry-way under a building and didn't look in his mirror.


Let me guess...Northbourne Ave?

That's where my incident occured - just a minor annoyance really rather than an "incident" but just thought I would vent here. How dozens of cyclists aren't killed every day using the on-road cycle lanes on Norhbourne is beyond me. A lot of the time it is the cyclist's fault too.

Saw a guy on a Cervelo TT bike this morning on the little concrete triangle at the traffic lights at Northbourne & Barry Dr (he was on Northbourne facing south). That was ok, I presumed he was waiting for the green pedestrian arrow to go green so he could cross the road. There were 3 or 4 other cyclists stopped at the same intersection (actually in the on-road bike lane on Northbourne, facing south as well), also waiting for the light to change. Then the light goes green and Mr Cervelo takes off from the concrete triangle and joins the bike lane straight in front of another roadie guy who had to apply his brakes to stop from running intohim but then procedes to draft Cervelo guy just a few cm off his wheel. I just looked away because I didn't want to see the carnage when the next traffic light turned red. Meanwhile the other cyclists (mizture of commuters on hybrids, MTBs and roadies) all jossling for position and trying to get past or stay in front of each other as they take off from the lights, sometimes deviating slightly into the car lane causing cars to brake and swerve to avoid hitting them.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby twizzle » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:09 pm

Ross wrote:Let me guess...Northbourne Ave?


Yep... the entry before the bus interchange, traffic was moving, I thought I was safe until after the next set of lights.

I wouldn't go that fast later in the morning, traffic density is too high, but it was 7:40am.


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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jcjordan » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:39 pm

Let me guess...Northbourne Ave?


Going anywhere near that road anytime between 7am and 8am on a weekday is just asking to be killed. Drivers refuse to indicate, constantly on the phone, running red light and another manner of poor behavior. I would not drive it let alone ride it
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby skull » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:55 pm

jcjordan wrote:Let me guess...Northbourne Ave?


Going anywhere near that road anytime between 7am and 8am on a weekday is just asking to be killed. Drivers refuse to indicate, constantly on the phone, running red light and another manner of poor behavior. I would not drive it let alone ride it



When I ride with the Friday bunch I usuall bail from the bunch just after the war memorial.

Hooting back down northbourne at 7am (especially in a large group of cyclists) is not my idea of a smart move.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Crawf » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:13 am

Image
Nothing like some Bogan chick abuse, made me laugh hard.
This car was proceeded by a guy on a Motorbike yelling abuse as well, as If the moron thinks I can here through his helmet. You'd think someone on two wheels would be on your side :?:
I think they think I should have been in the gutter.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby lump_a_charcoal » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:37 am

Crawf wrote:Image
Nothing like some Bogan chick abuse, made me laugh hard.
This car was proceeded by a guy on a Motorbike yelling abuse as well, as If the moron thinks I can here through his helmet. You'd think someone on two wheels would be on your side :?:
I think they think I should have been in the gutter.


Ha, funny pic! Looks like she should be barking.

WHy do you have your rear facing camera there by the way?
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Crawf » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:39 am

lump_a_charcoal wrote:
Crawf wrote:Image
Nothing like some Bogan chick abuse, made me laugh hard.
This car was proceeded by a guy on a Motorbike yelling abuse as well, as If the moron thinks I can here through his helmet. You'd think someone on two wheels would be on your side :?:
I think they think I should have been in the gutter.


Ha, funny pic! Looks like she should be barking.

WHy do you have your rear facing camera there by the way?


I've only got a K-edge front mount, it's not ideal but you can see my bike line of travel, hand signals if it ever came to a serious issue.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:44 am

lump_a_charcoal wrote:WHy do you have your rear facing camera there by the way?


vehicles that shave you come from behind...allows the camera to record the fact that said "moron" could have changed lanes/waited etc etc
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Ozkaban » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:20 am

I had an odd one this morning. I was approaching a T intersection on a 2 lane road where the lanes are separated at the intersection. I was claiming the left lane to turn left. A company ute cut across in front of me from the right lane across the dividing solid lines, turned left (straight into into the right lane of the other road), and immediately after got stuck in traffic while I rolled past in the left lane. It saved him absolutely zero time and was just done to be a jerk, I think.

I have the full video, but I have sent it to the company and am awaiting their response before I post it.

The thing that I though was odd is that this guy obviously thought I was some nobody cyclist who he can treat like dirt. But I am actually a customer of this business and have spent money there irregularly over a long period of time and very coincidentally was about to do so again this coming week. Obviously now I'm not. The guy who sits next to me at work rides a motor bike and is a customer of theirs too but was very unimpressed by the footage.

It's just so silly that in this time of struggling retail for companies to actively look for ways of losing customers. I don't get it. I've at least let the company know what has happened and that they've lost 2 customers in one go and the work day hadn't even started yet...
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby lump_a_charcoal » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:30 am

jasonc wrote:
lump_a_charcoal wrote:WHy do you have your rear facing camera there by the way?


vehicles that shave you come from behind...allows the camera to record the fact that said "moron" could have changed lanes/waited etc etc


I understand the benefits of a rear facing camera, but I didn't get the choice of filling the frame with legs instead of mounting it on the seat post or somewhere unobstructed.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby lump_a_charcoal » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:32 am

Ozkaban wrote:I had an odd one this morning. I was approaching a T intersection on a 2 lane road where the lanes are separated at the intersection. I was claiming the left lane to turn left. A company ute cut across in front of me from the right lane across the dividing solid lines, turned left (straight into into the right lane of the other road), and immediately after got stuck in traffic while I rolled past in the left lane. It saved him absolutely zero time and was just done to be a jerk, I think.

I have the full video, but I have sent it to the company and am awaiting their response before I post it.

The thing that I though was odd is that this guy obviously thought I was some nobody cyclist who he can treat like dirt. But I am actually a customer of this business and have spent money there irregularly over a long period of time and very coincidentally was about to do so again this coming week. Obviously now I'm not. The guy who sits next to me at work rides a motor bike and is a customer of theirs too but was very unimpressed by the footage.

It's just so silly that in this time of struggling retail for companies to actively look for ways of losing customers. I don't get it. I've at least let the company know what has happened and that they've lost 2 customers in one go and the work day hadn't even started yet...


Instant karma!
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Aushiker » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:33 am

lump_a_charcoal wrote:I understand the benefits of a rear facing camera, but I didn't get the choice of filling the frame with legs instead of mounting it on the seat post or somewhere unobstructed.


Reference point? Rear cameras really need a wheel or other reference point in the frame.

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