Critical Mass

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Critical Mass

Postby il padrone » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:21 pm

warthog1 wrote:I fail to see why anyone needs to fit some image or classification, and why they would be concerned enough to change their appearance based on a fear of being wrongly classified :wink:

Married? What did you wear at the ceremony..... everyday clothes?

Going for a job interview..... in moccies, a hoody and trackydacks?

You don't need to fit any image, it's just that other people apply it.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby Marx » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:32 pm

I used to think CM was rubbish, until I did one (in Melb) & now reckon they're OK.
CM is just one part of the spectrum of bicycle related movements, doesn't speak for everyone, but who does anyway?
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby damhooligan » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:00 pm

Xplora wrote:
jimboss wrote:I think with some people you are right, they get jealous that we don't get stuck in traffic etc.

People HATE queue jumping... it's a shame that they don't realise that a bicycle sits in a different queue to the rest of the traffic... sadly, they don't realise that the only reason they are in a queue is because their car is too damn big to flow around traffic on a public road :idea: :idea: :idea:


Yes, they hate queue jumping...

But so many cars do it to other cars on a daily basis.
For example in merging lanes on freeways.
Then dont merge where there is a free spot, but have to go in front of two/3 cars, and then with forse squeeze in...
The 'gained' two spots...
Or, just keep plotting along in the emergency lane....
Most car drivers jump queues as much as they can.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby Philipthelam » Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:14 pm

human909 wrote: However my suburban riding is in an area while is much more friendly to bicycles and has a significant cycling traffic. I would say that this plays a much bigger role than the clothes I wear


Exactly! Clothes you wear and helmets don't play as big of a role in encouraging others to cycle as improving infrastructure and making areas "more friendly to bicycles"

human909 wrote:**(And most of these are hyporcrites. Who hasn't broken the law whether it is speeding a little, riding without a bell, copying a music CD or smoking a joint.)


I really hate it when people say this. By your reasoning are you saying that since someone may have dropped some rubbish on the ground they should never accuse another person of murder or assault simply because they have broken the law in the past?

And now back on topic: I don't think the CM in Sydney is doing a very good job. I hadn't even heard of one in Sydney until I saw this thread and actually looked it up.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby Xplora » Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:32 am

damhooligan wrote:Yes, they hate queue jumping...

The average human is pretty bad at coping with multiple options. There is a reason why a train is typically the fastest way to get around in Europe and Japan. You remove the discretion from the user, and things speed up. That's OK. We've got other things to think about - but commuting with a 2 tonne piece of steel at 60kmh is NOT the time to switch off.

We are all inclined to chop and change if we want to improve our travel time. We're not God, we can't see the bigger picture. I like riding because riding affords me the flexibility to just go around the problems... you won't see me waiting in long queues because I will go around them. I am often a "high alert" commuter, and go fast. That might be a bike, or a car.

The day when drivers are able to stop themselves caterpillering along major high speed roads is never going to come. Trains avoid this... the saying "too many cooks spoil the broth" certainly applies to the road. The chain is only as strong as the weakest link.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby warthog1 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:29 am

il padrone wrote:Married? What did you wear at the ceremony..... everyday clothes?

Going for a job interview..... in moccies, a hoody and trackydacks?

You don't need to fit any image, it's just that other people apply it.


Other people applying an image, has no effect on what I wear whilst cycling. Practicality and comfort does.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby human909 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:56 am

Chuck wrote:Don't forget to include yourself among the hypocrites.

I'm sorry? Why? If you are going to make accusations at least attempt to justify them.

warthog1 wrote:I fail to see why anyone needs to fit some image or classification, and why they would be concerned enough to change their appearance based on a fear of being wrongly classified :wink:

I'm not arguing that anybody should! Wear what you damn well like! I'm just saying what the perception is, don't be deliberately naive about it!

Philipthelam wrote:Exactly! Clothes you wear and helmets don't play as big of a role in encouraging others to cycle as improving infrastructure and making areas "more friendly to bicycles"

No but the clothes and helmets THEY need to wear are influential on THEM! The clothes I wear are obviously LESS influential on THEM! Surely and obvious statement?

Philipthelam wrote:I really hate it when people say this. By your reasoning are you saying that since someone may have dropped some rubbish on the ground they should never accuse another person of murder or assault simply because they have broken the law in the past?

Don't be stupid. My reasoning is nothing of the sort! I would disapprove of somebody who committed murder or assault regardless of the law. My disapproval is based on morals and ethics not the strict letter of the law. :wink:
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby Mike Ayling » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:14 am

[quote="il padrone"
For short commuting rides I find that just wearing normal clothing is useful. I get next to no aggressive behaviours on my suburban commute. A lot less than people post on here about.[/quote]

This is also my experience.

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Re: Critical Mass

Postby sogood » Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:21 am

Marx wrote:I used to think CM was rubbish, until I did one (in Melb) & now reckon they're OK.

I think it would be helpful to know your (a CM supporter) definition of "rubbish" and "OK".
Last edited by sogood on Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby boss » Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:26 am

Xplora wrote:
damhooligan wrote:Yes, they hate queue jumping...

The average human is pretty bad at coping with multiple options. There is a reason why a train is typically the fastest way to get around in Europe and Japan. You remove the discretion from the user, and things speed up. That's OK. We've got other things to think about - but commuting with a 2 tonne piece of steel at 60kmh is NOT the time to switch off.

We are all inclined to chop and change if we want to improve our travel time. We're not God, we can't see the bigger picture. I like riding because riding affords me the flexibility to just go around the problems... you won't see me waiting in long queues because I will go around them. I am often a "high alert" commuter, and go fast. That might be a bike, or a car.

The day when drivers are able to stop themselves caterpillering along major high speed roads is never going to come. Trains avoid this... the saying "too many cooks spoil the broth" certainly applies to the road. The chain is only as strong as the weakest link.


A train is faster because they don't stop, the route is not congested, and they hold great average speeds.

Choices don't make cars slower or trains faster. It's a problem called congestion. The roads don't allow enough cars. Simple.

It would be exactly the same if everyone rode a bike and we had the same amount of space (in relative terms) that cars do.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby sogood » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:18 am

jimboss wrote:Choices don't make cars slower or trains faster. It's a problem called congestion. The roads don't allow enough cars. Simple.

At the end of the day, choice is largely determined by the relative pros and cons of transport methods. At present and for a good percentage of people, there are more pros with a driving than alternatives. It's as simple as that. To alter, one needs to alter the balance, congestion will go according to the subsequent demand-supply equation of that mode of transport. That's all.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby sogood » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:43 am

Note the photos on the latest CM Sydney ride.

Image

Image

Image

I always thought CM only took up one or two lanes on the bridge, didn't realise they took all the north bound lanes during Fri peak. Guess this is needed for safety, in case any passing motor vehicle decides to change lane.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby Ross » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:47 am

human909 wrote:There is no way am I suggesting that Lycra is a central cause if the bigotry but it is certainly a factor that isn't helping.

Earlier this year I was working in an light industrial area mostly tradies at work here. Guess who would be more likely to get abused by the commodore drives the rough looking guy in a hi-vis shirt on a k-mart bicycle who has likely lost his license OR the guy wearing lycra? The commodore driver might be working along side the guy on the k-mart bike later in the day!

The fact is when you can relate to somebody then you are less likely to treat them harshly.

]


These same tradies will most likely have a footy jumper of their favourite team in their wardrobe and wear it while they are kicking a footy around with their mates on the weekend but then have a go at cyclkists for wearing team kit.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby Ross » Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:59 am

il padrone wrote:For short commuting rides i find that just wearing normal clothing is useful. I get next to no aggressive behaviours on my suburban commute. A lot less than people post on here about.


I don't do short commutes (unless 20km counts as short) so am wearing lycra all the time while riding. What people wear while riding their bikes is a matter for them. They can wear pink tutus for all I care.

I don't have many (serious) incidents either. I think a lot of the 'incidents' reported on here are just a part of everyday life and some people are possibly too hypersensitive. I have more 'incidents' walking through a shopping mall. The ignorance, arrogance and stupidity of other shoppers astounds me.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby warthog1 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:09 pm

JustJames wrote:
human909 wrote:The key point of Critical Mass and the VERY brief and VERY occasional disruption of is that it is so rare! Motorists cause that disruption EVERYDAY of the year. How is the traffic and disruption from motorists not wilful and deliberate?


This is the second thread in two days where I've seen you apparently struggling to see the distinction between deliberate and incidental effects of actions.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I really don't think that the people stuck in traffic jams of a weekday morning have set out to bring traffic to a standstill.


human909 wrote:I'm not arguing that anybody should! Wear what you damn well like! I'm just saying what the perception is, don't be deliberately naive about it!


Who was that being deliberately naive? :roll:

human909 wrote:In fact, I do not want to join the Lycra tribe. I do not like the image. :|


human909 wrote:Do I need to spell it out? If I did so I'm sure some people might take offence. Either way it is an image that I'm not a big fan of. If you need further help in the direction I'm nodding then enjoy this. :wink:


The inference I received from reading your comments and wasting a couple of minutes watching that silly video is that people wear lycra because of an image it projects. Wrong.

Cycling is primarily a sport for me, it is part of my lifestyle, part social and also transport. I enjoy the sporting aspect of it most however, and to enjoy that, and participate to the best of my ability, lycra is the most practical gear to wear. I don't care what image it projects and for the most part it is outside my control anyway.

You can attempt to participate on a 40+km/h bunch ride in jeans and runners, or hemp shorts and kaftan sandals, or whatever it is you choose to wear as your daily clothes. I'm tipping it's not going to be too enjoyable though.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby il padrone » Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:50 pm

Ross wrote:
il padrone wrote:For short commuting rides i find that just wearing normal clothing is useful. I get next to no aggressive behaviours on my suburban commute. A lot less than people post on here about.


I don't do short commutes (unless 20km counts as short) so am wearing lycra all the time while riding. What people wear while riding their bikes is a matter for them. They can wear pink tutus for all I care.

I was not insisting cyclists wear any particular clothing, just commenting on what I believe to be one of the benefits of normal clothing on a short (10km) commute.

Ross wrote:I don't have many (serious) incidents either. I think a lot of the 'incidents' reported on here are just a part of everyday life and some people are possibly too hypersensitive.

I referred to "aggressive behaviours" - not the same as serious incidents (whatever 'serious' consists of). The type of aggressive behaviours I do not get include things like - needless horn-blasting, close shaves at speed, abusive comments out the window, raised finger salutes, left-hooks etc. They are not part of my everyday life now, since I've chosen to wearing street-wear on my short commute. I personally don't regard these as serious incidents, just niggling abuse. But it is the kind of stuff that deters many people from riding.
Last edited by il padrone on Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby il padrone » Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:59 pm

warthog1 wrote:The inference I received from reading your comments and wasting a couple of minutes watching that silly video is that people wear lycra because of an image it projects. Wrong.

Wrong indeed. You have the comments on this thread all a$$-about. The contention is that regardless of why you choose to wear lycra, Joe Average in his car driving by gets an image in his minds-eye about cyclists. That image is in all likelihood very false, but it's still there.

If you wish you can change that image Joe-boy has about you as a cyclist by dressing differently while riding - if the circumstances of your ride suit this ie. lycra team kit is not really necessary for a 6km commute. Some people I've seen and spoken to seem to think it is, even my wife at times needs to be reminded to tone it down :oops:
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby warthog1 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:21 pm

il padrone wrote:Wrong indeed. You have the comments on this thread all a$$-about.


Re read those comments by 909 and read some of the other comments posted in response. I am not the only person who got that impression.

human909 wrote:In fact, I do not want to join the Lycra tribe. I do not like the image. :|


il padrone wrote:The contention is that regardless of why you choose to wear lycra, Joe Average in his car driving by gets an image in his minds-eye about cyclists. That image is in all likelihood very false, but it's still there.


Joe Average is going to get an impression about cyclists regardless of what I choose to wear. Joe Average on occaision is a phallus head.
I choose to wear lycra because it is the best attire for the type of cycling I do.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby il padrone » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:41 pm

warthog1 wrote:Joe Average is going to get an impression about cyclists regardless of what I choose to wear. Joe Average on occaision is a phallus head.

Exactly what I was saying. But when you wear lycra he is applying that image onto you..... with all his knob-head attitudes. Then he may take actions that you don't really like.

If you wish... if it suits you, you may be able to short--circuit those knob-head attitudes and prejudices by wearing different clothing.

Just an idea. Take it or leave it, doesn't really bother me.

warthog1 wrote:I choose to wear lycra because it is the best attire for the type of cycling I do.

A lot of the time I do this too.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby sogood » Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:50 pm

Ross wrote:I don't have many (serious) incidents either. I think a lot of the 'incidents' reported on here are just a part of everyday life and some people are possibly too hypersensitive.

+1
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby Alien27 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:49 pm

Wow people are loosing the art of reading and contextualising text. The statements made were about the general (car driving) public's perceptions of different types of cyclists, and not the posters opinion of these types of cyclists. When the poster said he didn't like the lycra clad image, he was not saying he did not like the people that ware lycra, he was not saying he disproved of what they wore, nor was he saying the image was fair or accurate. What he said was he did not like the image.

Whether we like it or not, whether it is accurate or not and whether it is helpful or not, we (yes I'm in lycra every time I ride) project an image that is picked up by the general public, run through their faulty filters and used to draw conclusions about lycra clad riders as a group.

We do the same with other groups, think commodore ute driving tradies. I work in the construction industry, drive a commodore ute, my wife drives a commodore sedan, I love motor sport, have a road and race motorbike in the garage and know that when I'm in traffic cyclists process the image I project, make assumptions and probably keep a weary eye on me. No biggie, I'm quite comfortable in my skin (commodore ute or lycra), I am aware of the images I project and I dont take offence or get defensive when confronted with any stereotype of me.

I also dont take offence or get defensive, when others deliberately choose not to ware, do, drive or ride something as they do not want to be associated with a tribe/image/stereotype.

Anyway back to CM, looking at those pics above of the latest ride over the SHB, I cant help but think it was counter productive. Really, taking over all the north bound lanes of the bridge at peak hour on a Friday evening? I would suspect the motorists caught in the jam behind them for a lot longer than normal aren't thinking 'wow look at that, what a nice sustainable way of commuting, I should try that'.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby il padrone » Sun Dec 02, 2012 3:29 pm

Alien27 wrote:Wow people are loosing the art of reading and contextualising text. The statements made were about the general (car driving) public's perceptions of different types of cyclists, and not the posters opinion of these types of cyclists. When the poster said he didn't like the lycra clad image, he was not saying he did not like the people that ware lycra, he was not saying he disproved of what they wore, nor was he saying the image was fair or accurate. What he said was he did not like the image.

Whether we like it or not, whether it is accurate or not and whether it is helpful or not, we (yes I'm in lycra every time I ride) project an image that is picked up by the general public, run through their faulty filters and used to draw conclusions about lycra clad riders as a group.

We do the same with other groups, think commodore ute driving tradies. I work in the construction industry, drive a commodore ute, my wife drives a commodore sedan, I love motor sport, have a road and race motorbike in the garage and know that when I'm in traffic cyclists process the image I project, make assumptions and probably keep a weary eye on me. No biggie, I'm quite comfortable in my skin (commodore ute or lycra), I am aware of the images I project and I dont take offence or get defensive when confronted with any stereotype of me.

I also dont take offence or get defensive, when others deliberately choose not to ware, do, drive or ride something as they do not want to be associated with a tribe/image/stereotype.

+1 - 100% to this.

Mostly I ride about wearing this sort of gear on my cycle-tours
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Sometimes (less frequently) I choose to ride wearing this sort of gear :P
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby warthog1 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:12 pm

Alien27 wrote:Wow people are loosing the art of reading and contextualising text. The statements made were about the general (car driving) public's perceptions of different types of cyclists, and not the posters opinion of these types of cyclists. When the poster said he didn't like the lycra clad image, he was not saying he did not like the people that ware lycra, he was not saying he disproved of what they wore, nor was he saying the image was fair or accurate. What he said was he did not like the image.

Whether we like it or not, whether it is accurate or not and whether it is helpful or not, we (yes I'm in lycra every time I ride) project an image that is picked up by the general public, run through their faulty filters and used to draw conclusions about lycra clad riders as a group.


I would argue that people are losing the ability to address a point of argument without going off on an irrelevant tangent. The statement " I do not want to join the Lycra tribe. I do not like the image." in bold type , even when taken in the context of the entire post is inferring that lycra clad cyclists are the cause of much of the angst we receive from motorists.

I am arguing that when participating in cycling as a sport there is no valid alternative to lycra. Here is a strava segment underlying my point nth Harcourt road.
What would you suggest I wear while grovelling for the wheel of a NRS rider at 55km/h?
I have no business being there :oops: but hell it is fun while I am. :D
So when someone tells me the sporting clobber I wear while playing my sport is causing angst on the road, I will explain it is worn for a reason. :(

That was a group of 20 odd cyclists on that ride. We only got the odd bit of grief whilst riding. The cause was that we were 2 abrest and were a group. It is irrelevant what is worn. Drivers do not like groups of cyclists on the road period. Associating that with lycra is wrong.
Maybe what some drivers do is associate individual lycra clad cyclists with bunch rides and vent for that reason. I haven't really experienced it though.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby KonaCommuter » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:27 pm

I attended one CM in Brisbane back in the mid 90's. They were just intentionally antagonising motorists so my mates and I flipped them the bird (metaphorically) and peeled off.
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Re: Critical Mass

Postby warthog1 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:29 pm

KonaCommuter wrote:I attended one CM in Brisbane back in the mid 90's. They were just intentionally antagonising motorists so my mates and I flipped them the bird (metaphorically) and peeled off.

:lol: :lol: Thats up there with your CCR postings Kona
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