Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:27 pm

il padrone wrote:Personally I am aware of several people who have changed their tack on the helmet rule since these discussions have been taken up, have looked at the evidence for MHL and found it sorely wanting.

Count me in on that group too. I was fairly indifferent on the issue before encountering this debate on BV and BNA forums. Certainly having travelled and cycled extensively overseas I was never of the opinion that helmetless is terrible however I've never really had a problem with wearing a helmet myself so I largely didn't care.

jules21 wrote:but in principle, it annoys me that people feel entitled to burden society with the potential cost of exercising their freedom. that's not really freedom at all.

Please get rid of this notion that riding without a helmet puts a greater cost risk on society. This is simply not born out by fact. Furthermore a helmet wearing Lycra road warrier is far more likely to end up in hospital than a young helmetless female cycle commuter on a upright bicycle.

Are you annoyed at the people who rockclimb? The people who ski? The people who drive cars with no air bags? What about people who cycle when they could just catch the train? All of these are freedoms that are more risky than more regular alternatives.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby jules21 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:29 pm

human909 wrote:Are you annoyed at the people who rockclimb? The people who ski? The people who drive cars with no air bags? What about people who cycle when they could just catch the train? All of these are freedoms that are more risky than more regular alternatives.

i made my position clear above and you can easily read that i'm not annoyed by those things, per se.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Xplora » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:15 pm

jules21 wrote:.... but in principle, it annoys me that people feel entitled to burden society with the potential cost of exercising their freedom. that's not really freedom at all.

Heavy fat long term diets and smoking cannot be done without considerable risk to the person, and therefore the public purse WILL be paying over the population. You can't stand by the sideline for both of those. Drinking can be done responsibly, but it's never performed that way for a large cross section of the community. Sadly, our native populace can't seem to do drinking very well at all.

I understand your position, but I'm trying to point out that there is no middle ground for these behaviours. This is why your position isn't really consistent. Occasional high fat meals, occasional drinking, occasional helmetless riding, is not going to impact society negatively across population statistics. Responsible moderation is the key, and this can't be legislated when you refuse prohibition as an option. :idea: The alternative is simply education and encouragement. Enforcement is largely impossible for these activities.

I share your user pays mentality, but I disagree profoundly that a population of poor diet/heavy drinking/smoking people are being forced into user pays systems, and given that we don't enforce much more serious risk health areas then I don't see any cause to pick out the helmet as a special case.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby jules21 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:37 pm

Xplora wrote:Heavy fat long term diets and smoking cannot be done without considerable risk to the person, and therefore the public purse WILL be paying over the population. You can't stand by the sideline for both of those.

i'm not - i'm saying people should pay. in fact, they already do with alcohol and tobacco - through heavy taxes on their consumption. these taxes have been highly successful in curbing consumption - particularly for smokes. i would support extending that to other food types with a proven health risk - e.g. saturated fats.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Xplora » Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:53 pm

jules21 wrote:
Xplora wrote:Heavy fat long term diets and smoking cannot be done without considerable risk to the person, and therefore the public purse WILL be paying over the population. You can't stand by the sideline for both of those.

i'm not - i'm saying people should pay. in fact, they already do with alcohol and tobacco - through heavy taxes on their consumption. these taxes have been highly successful in curbing consumption - particularly for smokes. i would support extending that to other food types with a proven health risk - e.g. saturated fats.

Yes. It is fine to hold the opinion that we should move to the User Pays system, however we do not. Under the CURRENT ethics system, MHL does not make sense. Our society will support you, either as a dribbling head injury victim or a svelte leg shaving Cadel type with a VO2 MAX to rival Cadel's. Egalitarianism is the flavour of the month, and as such, we shouldn't suppress the free choice to wear a helmet or not. There are bigger social ills that do not suffer similar indignity. Banning smokes and booze to under 18s sure worked... regulation is pointless when it cannot be truly enforced.

Would you agree that MHL is ridiculous in our current environment?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:07 pm

As an economist and an advocate of efficient markets and choice I'm a fan of user pays. As a advocate of support for the less well off I'm an advocate of welfare. In many cases these do not oppose each other. However in the case of health it is very hard to effectively implement an effective and efficient user pays system without significantly disadvantaging the needy in our society.

But all this is greatly beside the point. The health impacts of not wearing a helmet are negligible. MHLs have a negative health impact.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby jules21 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:00 pm

human909 wrote:As an economist and an advocate of efficient markets and choice I'm a fan of user pays. As a advocate of support for the less well off I'm an advocate of welfare. In many cases these do not oppose each other. However in the case of health it is very hard to effectively implement an effective and efficient user pays system without significantly disadvantaging the needy in our society..

no, you can subsidise the needy. the trick is to not subsidise the costs of their stupid decisions, but rather the costs of mitigating measures. with health, this would mean subsidising the cost of their health care insurance. the problem with this is, and this will upset people but it's the truth, that some (or many, but again, i'll get myself in trouble here) are needy in the first place due to having poor judgment. the same poor judgment is what will lead some of them to fail to take advantage of privatised health insurance, even when it's subsidised to the point where it is affordable.

so where you've written "significantly disadvantaging the needy", it is more accurate to say "significantly disadvantaging the stupid". now that is not to suggest for one second that needy=stupid, as many needy people would easily take advantage of the type of scheme i'm proposing. but some (the stupid ones) inevitably will not. the question is - what to do about them? the solution at the moment is to just cover their costs (this is a problem i've described with MHLs at the moment - where someone can choose to ride without a helmet and incur $millions in lifetime care costs on behalf of the gullible public). i ask - do we do the same thing for equally stupid people who gamble their life savings away? no we do not. double standard.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:59 pm

jules21 wrote:(this is a problem i've described with MHLs at the moment - where someone can choose to ride without a helmet and incur $millions in lifetime care costs on behalf of the gullible public)


You have continued to bring up health costs as a point of debate and yet you have continued to fail to even make a slight case that MHL prevents $millions in health costs. You continue to assume that not wearing a helmet is a poor health decision but there is nothing to show that this is the case. There are entire countries that are making these 'stupid decisions' yet somehow they don't have a problem. But of course you know better than entire nations where everybody cycles. :roll:
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Xplora » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:03 pm

jules21 wrote: "significantly disadvantaging the needy", it is more accurate to say "significantly disadvantaging the stupid". now that is not to suggest for one second that needy=stupid, as many needy people would easily take advantage of the type of scheme i'm proposing. ... double standard.

I would strongly argue that the needy ARE the stupid. The needy are always in a temporary situation... but if you STAY needy, you are stupid. In this country, there are truckloads of jobs you can leapfrog into because you can't walk or belong to some minority. This isn't a discussion that reflects Australia in the 70s or 80s... but today. And you can get ahead much easier when you are disabled or disadvantaged than me, a white middle class male.

Anyway... the point is... Australian welfare doesn't punish or provide incentives for dumb people to be smart. The lowest common denominator is looked after. The situations you describe simply don't exist. Your food is covered, your hospital bill is covered. :idea: There is no reason to hold cyclists accountable for their actions, because no one is held accountable either. You seem to think that people gambling their life savings away isn't punished - this is true. They are brought to the bottom of the pile, and then the public purse looks after them. The only penalty for these boofheads is that they go from the top of the pile to the bottom. They aren't punished for their decision, they are simply stripped of their higher status. That's not a punishment. Only the criminal code punishes people.

We probably have a similar social attitude Jules... but you seem to miss the fact that the only punishment for the silly is a lack of reward. They won't go hungry, they won't excel, but that's their decision. You can't control these things. Tons of people will try very hard and still end up no better than the Newstart Veteran of 10 years. Tragic? Yes. But that's life.

MHL is an attempt to deny basic reality - riding isn't dangerous, and occasionally bad things happen. No point having a cry about these things. There are worse problems to address in social policy. :idea:
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Baldy » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:41 pm

toolonglegs wrote:I am wondering why the people who have zero interest in using Strava are so interested in having it regulated?.


damhooligan wrote: Thats easy....

The people that are not interested in using it are concerned .
Hence the regulation bit...


toolonglegs wrote:So people should have the choice as to whether they wear helmets or not... because a rational person should be able to make that decision for themselves with out it being forced upon them... but that same person should be banned from uploading their ride files to a website because they can't make the rational decision as to whether they should ride safely or not.
Next doctors will be saying Strava is bad because people are having heart attacks trying to beat the local Pantani up up Alpe D'Harbour Bridge.


damhooligan wrote:Just stop with the helmet reference.....
Been said before....
If you wanna go helmet there is another thread for this....

Uploading and comparing files/riding data is fine.
There are plenty of other ways then just strava to do this.
Thats not the issue.
The issue is that it promotes racing on public roads.
It promotes cyclists to take more risks.
They promote it.
That i see as a concern.

Is it a problem?
Mayby not. But can it become one?
yes.
As 2 deaths are already linked. More can follow.


At first I thought it was a language thing but now I am starting to think you are a roo short in the top paddock.

That you cannot or refuse to see the comparisons in logic is staggering. Even me pointing it out feels like stating the blindingly obvious.

The reason we have MHL is because of people who did not ride bikes and had no interest in riding bikes being concerned for bike riders. Hence the regulation bit....Anything ringing a bell here?

Was there a problem with people killing themselves by not wearing helmets, well it happens but anti -MHL argument says it was not so prevalent to be a problem. BUT could it become one? Yes. Someone had died while not wearing a helmet....more can follow.......um hello? This is anti-mhl 101...

Ok now onto racing on public roads. You know we race on public roads most weekends all around the country/world right? Yes we need a police permit to hold an official race on public roads but there are no police escorts at my club and all we have is a front and tail car with lights/signs[volunteers from the club, ie other racers]. My point is there is no supervision during the race, people are expected to act within the law and ride safely. And guess what! Just like other road users the vast majority of them do just that.

So what is not a race on public roads? Any ride that does not need a police permit would be my guess.

You say strava encourages racing and I say strava encourages you to ride as fast as you can. There is a strava competition on right now, it is a hillclimb comp. It is on a hill with a 50kph speed limit, my best effort was 25kph and the winner is 29kph. Done on seperate days. There was a segment that existed on the same hill before this comp and the times were much the same. And this might be surprising to you but people were riding up this hill at 29average and faster long before strava existed. It would help your case if you can point out what is so dangerous about riding at half the speed limit and in some cases alone?

Question: What is the difference between riding as fast as you can to beat a pb time on a section of road and doing the same to beat someone elses time who did it 6months earlier. The fact you are riding as fast as you can does not change, so your behaviour on the road does not change. This can be done perfectly legally with no risk to anyone but yourself and even then its minimal. You can do this with a stop watch. Then compare your result with others, something that has been happening since the birth of bicycles I would have thought.

Lastly let me give you a tip, anyone who has been on strava more than 5mins will know you take most KOM's with a very large grain of salt. Even most hill climbs are wind effected and if they are not then the lead up to them can be. Not to mention the number of other things that can alter performance.

I don't even care if you reply or not I'm just calling you out on the blatant hypocrisy. I am sure your mates here will come to your aid with plenty of spin, which is understandable,you need it.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby jacks1071 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:33 pm

Baldy wrote:So what is not a race on public roads? Any ride that does not need a police permit would be my guess.


Any ride with 2 or more people is a "race"
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Baldy » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:37 pm

Shhhhhh :lol:

Racing on public roads only applies to stravagics .......not drivers taking off from the lights flat out to just cut in front of you and stop at the next set of lights 150m up the road.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby DentedHead » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:41 am

jacks1071 wrote:
Baldy wrote:So what is not a race on public roads? Any ride that does not need a police permit would be my guess.


Any ride with 2 or more people is a "race"



Er... What? Riding with my 8yo son to teach him how to ride on the road is a race???
A leisurely ride with my wife to encourage her to cycle is a race?

Really hope you were trolling.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Kenzo » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:53 am

DentedHead wrote:
jacks1071 wrote:Any ride with 2 or more people is a "race"


Er... What? Riding with my 8yo son to teach him how to ride on the road is a race???
A leisurely ride with my wife to encourage her to cycle is a race?

Really hope you were trolling.

Dent.

You'd be surprised how the other person may see it...
In the case of your son - how much happier is he if you say, "Gee you got to the bridge faster than me!".. ?
Encouraging your wife to ride is the same - how do you measure improvement? How do you let her feel 'success' on the bike? You compare to another rider....

But no, I doubt jacks was trolling - more just making a little joke which you've decided to turn into a literal statement.

Lighten up, ride without a helmet across a grassy field and let the wind through the follicles :-D
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:09 am

Kenzo wrote:But no, I doubt jacks was trolling - more just making a little joke which you've decided to turn into a literal statement.


The has been significant peer reviewed research showing that excessive wearing of a helmet causes a degradation in the wearers humour lobe. Thus rendering those who wear helmets regularly less able to understand and recognise jokes.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby DentedHead » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:21 am

Admittedly, it can be hard to emphasize humour in text, but without the use of smilies I'd assume it was a serious comment, or trolling. While my boy and I occasionally race, just having him along doesn't make it a race, and as for riding with my wife, "success" is measured by enjoyment only. She doesn't care how fast anyone else rides. I have no issue with racing, (so long as it doesn't endanger people not involved), and love the feeling of wind in my hair :)

Anyway, I'd not usually "feed" trolls, but jacks' statement (as written) seemed so mind-numbingly stupid I forgot about troll-diets. If jacks had written "Any ride with me and at least one other rider is a "race"" or something similar, or even just added a smiley, I'd have had a chuckle and nothing more.

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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby damhooligan » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:19 pm

Baldy wrote:At first I thought it was a language thing but now I am starting to think you are a roo short in the top paddock..


Is this really nessesary ?

So my opinion is different then yours so i am a moron ??

Baldy wrote:am sure your mates here will come to your aid with plenty of spin, which is understandable,you need it.


Need ??
No , I dont need aid to spin things.

If its anything I need, then that would be a bit more respect for the fact that I have a opnion that is not the same as yours.
Even when thats the wrong one.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:50 pm

Baldy wrote:am sure your mates here will come to your aid with plenty of spin, which is understandable,you need it.

I'm not his mate and I'll try not to use spin. But I will attempt to come to his aid. (or at least address the issue)

There is some connection between the two topics. It is regarding the extent and influence of government on individual freedom VS individual safety. The similarities largely end there. Insulting others intelligence because they place different values on things is not conducive to pleasant or constructive discussion.

My personal views? MHLs we already know. I'm a big fan of freedom so I'm not about to advocate controls on Strava. However I do share damhooligan's 'concern'. I it was a matter of motoring hoons that were killing others then my opinions would be clear. At present it is a minority of cyclists largely harming themselves. I'm not a fan of banning it, but it is something that society should be 'concerned' about.

(Other individual things society is 'concerned' about are drugs. I'm also PRO freedom here, but for largely other reasons.)
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby biker jk » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:25 pm

The anti-MHL crowd ride through red lights but are worried about Strava. :roll:
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:47 pm

biker jk wrote:The anti-MHL crowd ride through red lights but are worried about Strava. :roll:

-the rest of the world operates just fine without MHLs
-ignoring red lights and using your own judgement is far safer than taking traffic signals on faith
-Strava has concerning qualities, doesn't mean it can't be fun!

If you see contradictions there then it is your reasoning that is operating poorly. :idea:
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Chuck » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:25 am

human909 wrote:Insulting others intelligence because they place different values on things is not conducive to pleasant or constructive discussion.


human909 wrote:The has been significant peer reviewed research showing that excessive wearing of a helmet causes a degradation in the wearers humour lobe. Thus rendering those who wear helmets regularly less able to understand and recognise jokes.


Your claim is absurd.


But it seems that you are so busy being sanctimonious that all perspective is lost.


If they don't appreciate or feel offended by the parody then they have issues and probably not just self-confidence issues.



Don't be stupid


There is no bleeding heart mentality just logical and rational consideration. Something that you struggle with.




Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Nobody » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:34 am

So...after 213+ pages, are we any closer to getting the law changed?
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby high_tea » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:39 pm

Nope. Neither camp can produce an argument I find convincing. If they can't convince me - sympathetic but skeptical - they're on a hiding to nothing out in the world. I'm content to sit on the fence and point out some of the patent nonsense that gets trotted out. Plenty of that to keep me busy :D
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:31 pm

Chuck wrote:Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

Your ability to compare value judgments and opinions to logical argument seems to be lacking. Furthermore you don't seem to be able to differential between a comment relating to an argument and a comment relating to a person.
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Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Chuck » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:14 pm

human909 wrote:Furthermore you don't seem to be able to differential between a comment relating to an argument and a comment relating to a person.


Ok
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