i run the same tyre and size on my tri's, but at 120 rear, 110 front....and your right, harsh on the bumps, but fast when its smooth!trailgumby wrote:I run Conti GP4000s 23's on my commuter bike, and anything over 100psi is too harsh. I'm 80kg and carry panniers, sometimes with laptop and mains adapter within.
120psi ...
Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby coates_hbk » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:12 pm
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby Comedian » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:23 pm
Sometimes... You fit them and no trouble other times.... Boom! When I pump them up now I wear ear muffs!
Anyway, just to post an update.. After a mate borrowed my wheels and had one pop off the rim at 40kph I've officially given up on these tyres. Before anyone gets excited I've been running them at 120 and the stated maximum for rim and tyre is 145(10 bar)
I love them... They are fast, wear well, and reasonably puncture proof but I can't live with the threat of one blowing off while riding.
I might use them up on my hybrid where the speeds are lower and there aren't rim brakes to get caught on a escaping tyre.
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby eeksll » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:56 pm
So to clarify, you pump them up to 120 rode around on them, they didnt blow off, then you pumped them to 140 and they blew off?
Anything further the Germans had to say?
My vittoria zaffiros that came on my road bike said something like 90-145psi (shimano r500 wheel). I ran them at 140psi for months cause well I just assumed thats what to run it at. Did not have the tyre blowing off.
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby Comedian » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:20 pm
No, the maximum recommended pressure for both the rims and the tyre is 10 bar. That doesn't mean the tyre should blow off at that pressure.. It should be safe at that pressure.eeksll wrote:I have to say your a brave man for riding on them at 120 when you know they blow at 140
So to clarify, you pump them up to 120 rode around on them, they didnt blow off, then you pumped them to 140 and they blew off?
Anything further the Germans had to say?
My vittoria zaffiros that came on my road bike said something like 90-145psi (shimano r500 wheel). I ran them at 140psi for months cause well I just assumed thats what to run it at. Did not have the tyre blowing off.
I emailed ze Germans and they claim they shouldn't blow off until 290 psi!!!
To clarify I've had failures with multiple ultremo zx and dd's on three sets of wheels, mavic kysrium elite, and Durace c24 and c50's.
It's back to continental force and attack for me.
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby eeksll » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:26 pm
I would also expect they would still be well within safe range.Comedian wrote:That doesn't mean the tyre should blow off at that pressure.. It should be safe at that pressure.
i was wandering if it was the tyre or a dodgy tyre, sound like tyreComedian wrote:I emailed ze Germans and they claim they shouldn't blow off until 290 psi!!!
To clarify I've had failures with multiple ultremo zx and dd's on three sets of wheels, mavic kysrium elite, and Durace c24 and c50's.
It's back to continental force and attack for me.
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby Nobody » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:02 pm
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby Reman » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:50 pm
Fronts get a plush 80psi!
When I was running 32c the rear only needed 80psi with the same weight.
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby chill » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:03 am
I've been using Ultremos for years and find that they can be finicky with certain rims and you need to be particular about seating them.
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby Comedian » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:18 am
I thought I was going OK with them... I thought it was just the one tyre so I bought some more. I'm only just reaching then end of that supply now.chill wrote:It's been a year, why did you keep buying them?
I've been using Ultremos for years and find that they can be finicky with certain rims and you need to be particular about seating them.
It seems that if you get them seated and all happy then they will stay on fine. However you won't know whether you've got it right for a few days because they can just blow off without warning at any time in the first 24 hours in my experience.
While I have run them at 10 bar I wouldn't now that I know the issues. If one blows off and grabs a brake you've got real issues. If it's a front it could be very unpleasant.
I did actually entertain trying to get it on video (it's pretty spectacular) but each time you destroy a tube and ... it might happen immediately... 1 minute later... 5 mintues... who knows.
Did you know that the decompression is so great that you actually get condensation pouring out of the tyre afterwards...
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby biker jk » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:33 pm
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby damhooligan » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:32 pm
Comedian wrote:First time I pumped it up to 140 (max is 145) ... came up stairs... BOOM. I go down and it's popped off the rim.
You clearly exceeded the max of the rim.Comedian wrote: Mavic say 138 is their recommended max.
Mayby the problem is not the tyre ??
Have you asked mavic for info on this?
You mentioned on your follow up , you used different rims, whats their max ??
And did you use the full 10 bar on those rims as well ??
Also as recommended by others you don't need 140 psi for your situation,but having said that , they should not have popped.
Especially not in your friends situation where 120 psi was used.
That still worries me, as this could happen to others.
I would personally send out an email stating your concerns,to both mavic as well as schwalbe , and be asking for a refund/compensation.
As you are allowed to expect a tyre to work,after putting it on.
As you are clearly experience enough to put on a tyre, this can be ruled out as a problem, so the problem has to be either the rim , or the tyre.
Either way, you should not have to pay for their defaults.
SCHIJNVEILIGHEID !!
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby scirocco » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:53 pm
Pump up to 30-40 psi and look closely all around the the rim and wiggle it around so it is all evenly seated around the whole 360 degrees on both sides. Let all the pressure out again if necessary.
Nothing to do with max pressure (unless you're going crazily stupid over the limit). If you don't exceed the wheel or tyre limits and everything is in good condition then it's operator error 99% of the time.
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby toolonglegs » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:07 pm
Sometimes you get a faulty tyre as well... It isn't always a fitting problem.
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby GasCyclist » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:37 pm
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby warthog1 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:36 pm
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby Comedian » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:15 pm
I just can't keep using these tyres....
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby Comedian » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:24 pm
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.ph ... ng-off-rim
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... =3&t=96779
And my favourite.
I used to think these were great - despite the cuts they'd suffered and their very fragile sidewalls. They're very light and feel quick.However, both tyres came off the rims at Crystal Palace about 6 weeks ago on the adverse camber at the top of the descent. The inner tubes exploded and dumped me on the ground with a loud bang. Lots of missing skin.
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby Wal42 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:38 pm
Maybe you just got a dud tyre, take it back or send it back, explain what's happening, hopefully they'll recognise there is an issue & replace.
I'm currently running Vredestein Fortezza Tri Comps, they seem to be lasting ok (145psi with them), got a Duo Comp TT tyre, super fast but once again no durability (cutting really badly).
Tyres are a bit of a personal thing, what works for one mightn't work for another, damn expensive exercise at times too.
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby winstonw » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:04 pm
The mention of Coot-tha and flat smells suspiciously like rim heat puncture.Comedian wrote:My mate lost another one on my c50's this week. He'd just gone down Mt Cootha and was riding along the flat at about 40k. Somehow he managed to keep it together... and it was another brand new Ultremo ZX after the last one nearly killed him.
I just can't keep using these tyres....
http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/blowouts.html
I'd be interested to know whether the rear or front tire blew that day, and the braking technique of the rider.
It's been suggested before that for steep descents, the front is better feathered and the rear held on consistently to help evenly distribute heat build up between both rims.
With blow offs and flats, I'd be interested in your tube/tire changing technique. After a spate of flats one day recently, I've resorted to shaking my tubes around in a bag of talc powder, and inflating overnight, before they qualify as a spare. I am also rubbing talc on the inside of the tires, to further reduce risk of pinching the tube.
Then you have to consider C50s (and C24s) have a very thin metal brake strip over carbon, which does not disperse heat as efficiently as a solid alloy rim.
A ZX is a 195g tire, and ime, is not sturdy enough for every day riding.
R1 and ZLX are even lighter, ergo less suitable for everyday riding.
GP4000s (205g) and Gatorskins (220) have proven much more reliable and durable amongst my mates for everyday road riding, and are cheaper than attack (190)/force (210).
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby Comedian » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:46 pm
Well.. it was someone we both know who is far far more experienced on cootha than either of us put together. I think he's down to 7:30 ish now. It's just cootha...there is only a little brake right at the bottom.. and anyway, the problem is the tyre jumping off the rim.winstonw wrote:The mention of Coot-tha and flat smells suspiciously like rim heat puncture.Comedian wrote:My mate lost another one on my c50's this week. He'd just gone down Mt Cootha and was riding along the flat at about 40k. Somehow he managed to keep it together... and it was another brand new Ultremo ZX after the last one nearly killed him.
I just can't keep using these tyres....
http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/blowouts.html
I'd be interested to know whether the rear or front tire blew that day, and the braking technique of the rider.
It's been suggested before that for steep descents, the front is better feathered and the rear held on consistently to help evenly distribute heat build up between both rims.
With blow offs and flats, I'd be interested in your tube/tire changing technique. After a spate of flats one day recently, I've resorted to shaking my tubes around in a bag of talc powder, and inflating overnight, before they qualify as a spare. I am also rubbing talc on the inside of the tires, to further reduce risk of pinching the tube.
Then you have to consider C50s (and C24s) have a very thin metal brake strip over carbon, which does not disperse heat as efficiently as a solid alloy rim.
A ZX is a 195g tire, and ime, is not sturdy enough for every day riding.
R1 and ZLX are even lighter, ergo less suitable for everyday riding.
GP4000s (205g) and Gatorskins (220) have proven much more reliable and durable amongst my mates for everyday road riding, and are cheaper than attack (190)/force (210).
It was the back too and was a brand new ZX with only maybe 100k. He's had it happen on the flat as well. And i've had it happen more than half a dozen times in my garage. I've had DD's blow off a few times too... and I think they are 230 and are very suitable as an everyday tyre. In fact ... I absolutely love a ZX on the front and a DD on the back. Apart from them blowing off randomly it's a great combo.
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby Comedian » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:12 pm
I'm afraid I think their bead is just too big...
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby winstonw » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:56 pm
Hmmm....hard to imagine the brakes are only being applied a little at the bottom, on the backside of Coot-tha. But I've got the imagination of a descender with a strong survival instinct and poor descending skills. That sharp left where the skate boarder chick died, would put some serious lateral force through the tire, and possibly move it on the rim enough to pinch flat. I suppose it's possible the forces generated are well into elite rider level.Comedian wrote:Well.. it was someone we both know who is far far more experienced on cootha than either of us put together. I think he's down to 7:30 ish now. It's just cootha...there is only a little brake right at the bottom.. and anyway, the problem is the tyre jumping off the rim.
It was the back too and was a brand new ZX with only maybe 100k. He's had it happen on the flat as well. And i've had it happen more than half a dozen times in my garage. I've had DD's blow off a few times too... and I think they are 230 and are very suitable as an everyday tyre. In fact ... I absolutely love a ZX on the front and a DD on the back. Apart from them blowing off randomly it's a great combo.
Also, the heat could overinflate the tube and force the tire off the rim, without puncturing.
Have you had it happen in your garage at a max of 120psi?
Have you pumped any other tire models/brands above 120?
I wouldn't be inclined to pump above 120 as I reckon it won't accommodate increased pressure due to rim heat when riding.
I am not familiar with the rim structure of the dura ace wheels; but my carbons do not have a lip that curls inwards around the edge of the rim, like my alloys.
I presume this lip could reduce the chance of a blow off.
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby Comedian » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:21 pm
Sorry... to clarify it was after going down the front side and turning left that the tyre blew. There was only a light brake just before the left turn on the bypass road.winstonw wrote:Hmmm....hard to imagine the brakes are only being applied a little at the bottom, on the backside of Coot-tha. But I've got the imagination of a descender with a strong survival instinct and poor descending skills. That sharp left where the skate boarder chick died, would put some serious lateral force through the tire, and possibly move it on the rim enough to pinch flat. I suppose it's possible the forces generated are well into elite rider level.Comedian wrote:Well.. it was someone we both know who is far far more experienced on cootha than either of us put together. I think he's down to 7:30 ish now. It's just cootha...there is only a little brake right at the bottom.. and anyway, the problem is the tyre jumping off the rim.
It was the back too and was a brand new ZX with only maybe 100k. He's had it happen on the flat as well. And i've had it happen more than half a dozen times in my garage. I've had DD's blow off a few times too... and I think they are 230 and are very suitable as an everyday tyre. In fact ... I absolutely love a ZX on the front and a DD on the back. Apart from them blowing off randomly it's a great combo.
Also, the heat could overinflate the tube and force the tire off the rim, without puncturing.
Have you had it happen in your garage at a max of 120psi?
Have you pumped any other tire models/brands above 120?
I wouldn't be inclined to pump above 120 as I reckon it won't accommodate increased pressure due to rim heat when riding.
I am not familiar with the rim structure of the dura ace wheels; but my carbons do not have a lip that curls inwards around the edge of the rim, like my alloys.
I presume this lip could reduce the chance of a blow off.
Once again for everyone... both my durace C24's and C50's have max pressure of 10 bar (145psi) written inside them. Both the Schwalbe Ultremo ZX and DD have max inflations of 10 bar (145psi).
I typically inflate to an indicated 120 on my floor pump which has been shown to be 115 on a pro digital guage. Both blowouts while in use occurred at 115psi.
I have pumped them up to the full 145 and rolled with them. However generally they blow off by 130. My recent method has been to fit them, pump them up to 130 and leave them over night to see if they blow off or not. Then drop them and use them at 120. Unfortunately sometimes they don't even make 110, sometimes you get them to 130 and then they blow after 30 seconds, five minutes, and hour. One blew off at 3am. Boy that surprised everyone.
Seriously, people here can go on and question my and my mates ability to fit tyres, pump them up, ride, brake, or whatever but I'm telling you none of us have any problems with any other tyres on any of our rims.
I'm moving on. I just found up my tyre levers (the schwalbes you could fit by hand) and fitted some conti Force and Attack. Pumped them straight up to their recommended max of 120psi and no BOOM. Beautiful. I'm moving on.
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby winstonw » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:37 pm
incidentally, I bought a Specialized tire from Mike Bikes on the Gold Coast several weekends ago, after a large hole developed in my original. Cost me $50. It was utter rubbish, and I had two flats within 30 minutes. I put it down to weak walls with a rough and uneven bead, increasing the P of pinching the tube.
I won't be buying Specialized tires again. If you want it, it's yours
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Re: Schwalbe Ultremo blowing off rim
Postby jacks1071 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:32 pm
Sounds like you've gone to lengths to work out whats causing the issue. I highly recommend you change to some different tyres although I've never had the issue you describe.
I did have some Ultremo casings fail a while ago, about 6 tyres actually. They were replaced under warranty and I never had another issue. If you've ever seen a snake thats eaten a rat or a cat thats what the tyre looked like - big bulges in it.
If you want a really tight tyre, get some tubeless tyres from Hutchinson and run them with tubes. They are TIGHT, the bead on them doesn't stretch.
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