Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby SpinninWheels » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:48 am

damhooligan wrote:
Uploading and comparing files/riding data is fine.
There are plenty of other ways then just strava to do this.
Thats not the issue.
The issue is that it promotes racing on public roads.
It promotes cyclists to take more risks.
They promote it.
That i see as a concern.


Really? In the group I ride with, when anybody puts the hammer down it's on! Should they be regulated too?

The nice thing about road cycling is that you can safely race on a public road, without breaking any laws, with or without Strava.

Some people will never cease looking for other to blame.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Chuck » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:30 pm

il padrone wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Very true... we can be trusted to decide for ourselves whether we wear a helmet or not, but we can not be trusted to decided whether it is safe for us to ride a strava segment or not.

You are missing the quite significant difference in the two cases.

Somebody choosing not to wear a helmet may endanger themselves, they certainly are not endangering anybody else. As evidenced by the article in the OP, the same cannot be said for Strava abuse.


Has it been established that the rider in the OP was riding recklessly ? Above the speed limit ? Ran a red light ? On the footpath ? It doesn't go into the details that caused the 71 yo man's death, he may have stepped into the path of a vehicle obeying the law unwittingly ?
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Chuck » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:52 pm

damhooligan wrote:
Just stop with the helmet reference.....
Been said before....
If you wanna go helmet there is another thread for this....


Stop ? Why stop ? A perfectly valid point has been raised within the rules of the site. Do the people who disagree with you on here ask you to stop or try to divert you to other threads ? The point made is in it's relevant thread imo.

Personally I find your concerns with strava at odds with your very vocal stance regarding MHL's.


Edit: Why is this thread in the Buying a bike / parts section :P
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby high_tea » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:25 pm

Chuck wrote:
il padrone wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Very true... we can be trusted to decide for ourselves whether we wear a helmet or not, but we can not be trusted to decided whether it is safe for us to ride a strava segment or not.

You are missing the quite significant difference in the two cases.

Somebody choosing not to wear a helmet may endanger themselves, they certainly are not endangering anybody else. As evidenced by the article in the OP, the same cannot be said for Strava abuse.


Has it been established that the rider in the OP was riding recklessly ? Above the speed limit ? Ran a red light ? On the footpath ? It doesn't go into the details that caused the 71 yo man's death, he may have stepped into the path of a vehicle obeying the law unwittingly ?


If you're referring to the Flint litigation, then 10 mph over the limit is the figure that's been thrown around by a couple of news articles. I don't know about the other litigation.

As has been said before, a lot of the problematic behaviour that Strava encourages is already regulated. Organising a race without a permit is illegal. So's speeding, so's dangerous driving. It beats me what else you'd regulate and, given that Strava's a US company, there are some interesting jurisdictional issues to wade through. I can't see it happening for a criminal law.

As for the civil side of it, insofar as Strava owes a duty of care, so too do the people who actually create the segment and whatnot. I expect that's why the Flint lawsuit names 20 "Doe" defendants. Personally, I think intermediary liability for negligence is a bit of a daring idea, but who knows how it'll play in the States.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Byke » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:31 pm

I remember when being able to monitor your vehicle's speed was considered a Very Good Thing.

Looking forward to the upcoming Herald Sun article suggesting car speedometers raise safety concerns.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Ross » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:35 am

Chuck wrote:
Edit: Why is this thread in the Buying a bike / parts section :P


My fault for not looking properly at what I was doing when I posted it in the first place :oops:
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby damhooligan » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:41 pm

Chuck wrote:
damhooligan wrote:
Just stop with the helmet reference.....
Been said before....
If you wanna go helmet there is another thread for this....


Stop ? Why stop ? A perfectly valid point has been raised within the rules of the site. Do the people who disagree with you on here ask you to stop or try to divert you to other threads ? The point made is in it's relevant thread imo.

Personally I find your concerns with strava at odds with your very vocal stance regarding MHL's.


Edit: Why is this thread in the Buying a bike / parts section :P


Valid?
I think differently.

Helmets are for everybody, all cyclists.
young/old -recreational/leisure - commute or otherwise.
Its a broad spectrum of cycling, and not all of them are in need of helmets.
The biggest beef I got with those that dont need them, are being forced to wear them.

Strava is suited for a specific type of cyclists, the recreational one.
As in the op, cycling behaviours can clearly change... and many do not wish to aknowledge this.
When racing, you take more risks.
You are adding additional risks, while riding in everyday traffic that already has enough risks as it is..

Sure , we may race more often then we might think, but that doesn't mke it allright..
I know the following is designed for cars, BUT a bike is a vehicle.
And many people on this forum are adament on not breaking the rules ;

(1) A person must not organise, promote or take part in:
(a) any race between vehicles on a road or road related area, or
(b) any attempt to break any vehicle speed record on a road or road related area, or
(c) any trial of the speed of a vehicle on a road or road related area, or
(d) any competitive trial designed to test the skill of any vehicle driver or the reliability or mechanical condition of any vehicle on a road or road related area,
unless the written approval of the Commissioner of Police to the holding or making of the race, attempt or trial has been obtained.

Technically, racing a bike is illegal.
And promoting an illegal activity is not a good thing.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby damhooligan » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:44 pm

SpinninWheels wrote:
damhooligan wrote:
Uploading and comparing files/riding data is fine.
There are plenty of other ways then just strava to do this.
Thats not the issue.
The issue is that it promotes racing on public roads.
It promotes cyclists to take more risks.
They promote it.
That i see as a concern.


Really? In the group I ride with, when anybody puts the hammer down it's on! Should they be regulated too?

The nice thing about road cycling is that you can safely race on a public road, without breaking any laws, with or without Strava.

Some people will never cease looking for other to blame.



Racing safely...., on a public road.....

Think about that one.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby damhooligan » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:48 pm

Xplora wrote:
damhooligan wrote:Just stop with the helmet reference.....

Nah, it's a fair call, and you have to either cop it sweet or accept that the same principles apply. Normal human behaviour isn't suppressed by regulations. People will go fast when others don't want them to. The likelihood that cyclists are actually breaking laws to go fast is minimal because it's HARD WORK getting up to the speed limit!

Motorbikes or cars, I'd feel differently because they are capable of well beyond the speed limit, but bikes? I thought we were against the Nanny State? :?:

More people have died helmetless than chasing Strava KOMs in the same period of time. :idea: Freedom to think and choose either applies to everything, or it doesn't apply to anything.



The same principle does not apply, cause they are two different things.
They may have things in common, but they are not the same thing.
So therefore applying the same logic to both is unlogical.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby damhooligan » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:59 pm

toolonglegs wrote:If people don't know they are riding like idiots then will regulating an app that is not viewable till you are at home help?.

damhooligan wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:I am wondering why the people who have zero interest in using Strava are so interested in having it regulated?.

Thats easy....

The people that are not interested in using it are concerned .
Hence the regulation bit...


So people should have the choice as to whether they wear helmets or not... because a rational person should be able to make that decision for themselves with out it being forced upon them... but that same person should be banned from uploading their ride files to a website because they can't make the rational decision as to whether they should ride safely or not.
Next doctors will be saying Strava is bad because people are having heart attacks trying to beat the local Pantani up up Alpe D'Harbour Bridge.


Cause a rational person would know the diff between a bike ride, and a bike race.
Racing contains a higher risk then a nice pootle along the bike path.

I am not suggesting banning it at all, thats a bit too extreme.
I dont consider strava to be the motherload of all evil.
It defenatly has a lot of positive things going for it.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby warthog1 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:30 am

damhooligan wrote:

Racing safely...., on a public road.....

Think about that one.


Most club races and tt events in Vic are on public roads.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby bychosis » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:48 am

Everyone should stop using Strava. It'll give me a better chance of getting/keeping some extra KOMs
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby skull » Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:28 am

damhooligan wrote:
Technically, racing a bike is illegal.
And promoting an illegal activity is not a good thing.


Ummmm, you are incorrect in saying that.

The majority of road races are on public roads.


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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby RonK » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:20 am

skull wrote:
damhooligan wrote:
Technically, racing a bike is illegal.
And promoting an illegal activity is not a good thing.


Ummmm, you are incorrect in saying that.

The majority of road races are on public roads.


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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby skull » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:24 am

So then technically racing a bike isn't illegal.

Then there are the other races not on public roads, so where is all this illegal racing happening.

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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby high_tea » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:03 am

skull wrote:So then technically racing a bike isn't illegal.

Then there are the other races not on public roads, so where is all this illegal racing happening.

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ITYM "isn't invariably illegal". Not sure what bearing this has on Strava though.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby richbee » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:27 am

bychosis wrote:Everyone should stop using Strava. It'll give me a better chance of getting/keeping some extra KOMs

+1 :twisted:
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Lukeyboy » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:39 am

Oh boohoo I say. Take some bloody responsibility for your own actions. No different than someone that had a few too many drinks and then ends up stumbing ass over tit on the footpath as they're running for the train at the train station and then saying "I'm going to sue the manufacture for making that beer". Strava might encourage people to take more risks but how is that any different to what some of us did before strava. We all know areas where we have personal checkpoints and sprints. Gun it from the lights on a side street for the next 300m to avoid getting the next red light. Riding with mates/group ride and someone flogs it and you go straight after them. The wind is behind you on the road/bike lane/shared path so you push it. Your feeling happy, great, the sun is shining, blue sky so you push it that bit more. If you end up faceplanting into the boot of someones car because you took that extra risk to be the new KOM then you have no one else but yourself to blame. Attack the climbs like a real cyclist should.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby richbee » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:51 am

Before Strava we tried to trigger the speed camera's in the West Midlands (England). I'm sure there's a good few of my backside on record at the West Mercia Constabulary...
And before you flame me, there's no offense of speeding on a bicycle in England, only a wonderfully vague one of "Pedalling Furiously".
Now that I'm in Aus I stick religeously to the speed limit, specially when descending Coot-Tha and Dornoch Terrace :wink:
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby rockdoctor » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:18 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:Oh boohoo I say. Take some bloody responsibility for your own actions. No different than someone that had a few too many drinks and then ends up stumbing ass over tit on the footpath as they're running for the train at the train station and then saying "I'm going to sue the manufacture for making that beer". Strava might encourage people to take more risks but how is that any different to what some of us did before strava. We all know areas where we have personal checkpoints and sprints. Gun it from the lights on a side street for the next 300m to avoid getting the next red light. Riding with mates/group ride and someone flogs it and you go straight after them. The wind is behind you on the road/bike lane/shared path so you push it. Your feeling happy, great, the sun is shining, blue sky so you push it that bit more. If you end up faceplanting into the boot of someones car because you took that extra risk to be the new KOM then you have no one else but yourself to blame. Attack the climbs like a real cyclist should.


Wow imagine that, someone doing something that could be considered dangerous and taking responsibility for their own actions. Imagine a world where if you hurt yourself of your own accord it was you own fault. I too am one of these strange people who take has the potential to hurt myself without Strava telling me to or needing to blame Strava if I do. I was going fast down hills, up hills and everything in between 10 years before Strava was invented. I dont run red lights and I dont mow down pedestrians just because I now have a convenient place to record that I was going 35km/h under the speed limit up a hill.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby g-boaf » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:28 pm

rockdoctor wrote:
Lukeyboy wrote:Oh boohoo I say. Take some bloody responsibility for your own actions. No different than someone that had a few too many drinks and then ends up stumbing ass over tit on the footpath as they're running for the train at the train station and then saying "I'm going to sue the manufacture for making that beer". Strava might encourage people to take more risks but how is that any different to what some of us did before strava. We all know areas where we have personal checkpoints and sprints. Gun it from the lights on a side street for the next 300m to avoid getting the next red light. Riding with mates/group ride and someone flogs it and you go straight after them. The wind is behind you on the road/bike lane/shared path so you push it. Your feeling happy, great, the sun is shining, blue sky so you push it that bit more. If you end up faceplanting into the boot of someones car because you took that extra risk to be the new KOM then you have no one else but yourself to blame. Attack the climbs like a real cyclist should.


Wow imagine that, someone doing something that could be considered dangerous and taking responsibility for their own actions. Imagine a world where if you hurt yourself of your own accord it was you own fault. I too am one of these strange people who take has the potential to hurt myself without Strava telling me to or needing to blame Strava if I do. I was going fast down hills, up hills and everything in between 10 years before Strava was invented. I dont run red lights and I dont mow down pedestrians just because I now have a convenient place to record that I was going 35km/h under the speed limit up a hill.


+1,000,000 to that! If people don't ride appropriately for the conditions, then any resulting accidents are their own fault.

I love Strava, but I'm not crazy - I know my limits as a rider and I'll ride within them.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Mrfenejeans » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:37 pm

Average Strava User wrote:Everybody wants to know what I'm on. What am I on? I'm on my Strava Account stalking every other rider six hours a day. What are you on?


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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Baldy » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:48 pm

Ok so lets see if I have this right....

I go out and ride my bike alone =not racing.
I go out and ride my bike alone and then upload the ride to Strava= racing
Delete the ride from Strava=not racing

We are talking about the same ride.

This "racing" you talk about most people call training/exercise/recreation. People who do not and have never used Strava ride as fast or faster than those on Strava. They have been doing this for ever because the competition is with yourself. You need to get your head around this bit.

Will some people get carried away chasing the fastest time, yes. The same people will likely get carried away chasing their mates or some strangers or just because they are a badass mofo who must go fast everywhere. The point is you decide how to ride.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Lukeyboy » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:06 pm

rockdoctor wrote:
Lukeyboy wrote:Oh boohoo I say. Take some bloody responsibility for your own actions. No different than someone that had a few too many drinks and then ends up stumbing ass over tit on the footpath as they're running for the train at the train station and then saying "I'm going to sue the manufacture for making that beer". Strava might encourage people to take more risks but how is that any different to what some of us did before strava. We all know areas where we have personal checkpoints and sprints. Gun it from the lights on a side street for the next 300m to avoid getting the next red light. Riding with mates/group ride and someone flogs it and you go straight after them. The wind is behind you on the road/bike lane/shared path so you push it. Your feeling happy, great, the sun is shining, blue sky so you push it that bit more. If you end up faceplanting into the boot of someones car because you took that extra risk to be the new KOM then you have no one else but yourself to blame. Attack the climbs like a real cyclist should.


Wow imagine that, someone doing something that could be considered dangerous and taking responsibility for their own actions. Imagine a world where if you hurt yourself of your own accord it was you own fault. I too am one of these strange people who take has the potential to hurt myself without Strava telling me to or needing to blame Strava if I do. I was going fast down hills, up hills and everything in between 10 years before Strava was invented. I dont run red lights and I dont mow down pedestrians just because I now have a convenient place to record that I was going 35km/h under the speed limit up a hill.


Totally agree aswell.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Chris249 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:57 pm

Can't the "people just have to take responsibility for their own actions" line be taken both ways?

The creators of Strava took an action. That action was the creation and promotion of Strava. There's a fair bit of evidence around that at least one guy died while specifically trying to regain his KOM. Sure, to most of us he was an idiot. However, if we all have to take responsibility for our own actions, and it was easy to see that once Strava was created then people would get excited and exceed their limitations to stay on the leaderboard, then does Strava necessarily get off scot free?

When people street race against each other in cars and one of them kills an innocent driver in a third vehicle, most observers seem to blame both racers as we know that racing is less likely when there is no one to race against. In Pro Cycling mag this month, there's a suggestion that Eddy Mercyx was complicit in career-ending injuries that happened to other riders who were trying to hang onto Mercyx downhill, because Mercyx pushed the limits too hard. And I'm sure when we were little kids, if we dared our mates to do something stupid and the mate got hurt, we copped a hiding for encouraging them. So there are comparable situations where we blame those who laid the challenge as well as those who took the challenge up. Is Strava necessarily completely different?

The point is that taking responsibility for our own actions can run both ways, and from some points of view Strava can be guilty just like we were guilty when we were kids and we challenged mates to do stupid things like seeing who would let off a firecracker held in our teeth. Sure, Strava is one step removed. And sure, anyone dumb enough to go for a downhill Strava segment deserves what they get IMHO. All I'm saying is that it may not be as simple as some are making out. If you choose to create something that could encourage people to do dumb things then you could perhaps be seen to be responsible, as it was your action that encouraged the stupidity.

I'm NOT saying that Strava is guilty, I'm just putting forward the view that it's not a dead simple issue.

BTW for those who want to race, time trials, hill climbs and races can also be found at your local cycling club!
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