There's fine, and then there's Zipp

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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby high_tea » Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:45 am

You kind of can measure the difference: does whatever change show up on the stopwatch? Lab measurements are all very well, but the whole idea is to go faster in a race. It was a good article, measuring performance is fascinating stuff. I particularly liked the bit about wanting to test wheel+bike+rider for preference. Reminds me of one of my favourite aphorisms: all measurements lie. The fun is in figuring out how and how much.
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by BNA » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:00 am

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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:00 am

I can give Greg from TWE a call - though he is a busy guy - skilled at what he does so is in high demand.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby SmellyTofu » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:01 am

toolonglegs wrote:Very nice wheels that Zipp make... but you do seem to hear a lot of stories of failures with them.


Is that just the squeeky wheel syndrome?
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby dodge » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:34 pm

Xplora wrote:
ZepinAtor wrote: I feel the real comparisons are Zipp v Lightweights/Madfibre/Enve etc which are more comparable & in a similar price range

I think there is definitely scope for both questions. The simple fact is that we are outside our ability to test.

I personally would love Greg from TWE to put up some of his wheels against the Zipps. He claims that they are comparable, but there isn't much Australia love on the forum. I personally would use him, just annoying that I don't have 1000++ to pony up for a couple wheels :(

I'm a big fan..Greg builds great wheels.. I had a powertap wheel built that has been more solid than my fulcrum 3's which kept breaking spokes....I also had him build me a custom set for my 29er which have again been rock solid and roll nicely and have been the biggest improvement to my bike....The other set greg built was a little unusual ..A custom set for a 20" BMX and that theme again.. rock solid wheels..and roll forever..Pretty much guarantee I will get him to build me another set for my 26" anthem I got recently too :D

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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby Baldy » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:41 pm

On the Hongfu.Vs Zipp debate that has been solved by a BNA member already. You just put Zipp stickers on your wheel shaped object. For the aesthetics you see :wink:

Since no one else has the guts to say it I will...

Zipps are terrible wheels, do not buy them. If you own a set already stop riding them. Everyone should refrain from using Zipp 404 Firecrests in beyond black livery in particular.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby usernameforme » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:10 pm

dodge wrote:
Xplora wrote:
ZepinAtor wrote: I feel the real comparisons are Zipp v Lightweights/Madfibre/Enve etc which are more comparable & in a similar price range

I think there is definitely scope for both questions. The simple fact is that we are outside our ability to test.

I personally would love Greg from TWE to put up some of his wheels against the Zipps. He claims that they are comparable, but there isn't much Australia love on the forum. I personally would use him, just annoying that I don't have 1000++ to pony up for a couple wheels :(

I'm a big fan..Greg builds great wheels.. I had a powertap wheel built that has been more solid than my fulcrum 3's which kept breaking spokes....I also had him build me a custom set for my 29er which have again been rock solid and roll nicely and have been the biggest improvement to my bike....The other set greg built was a little unusual ..A custom set for a 20" BMX and that theme again.. rock solid wheels..and roll forever..Pretty much guarantee I will get him to build me another set for my 26" anthem I got recently too :D

Cheers


I'm almost 100% certain that TWE just source Chinese rims and put their own badge on it, I would love to be proven wrong as Greg seems like a reputable guy. I really hope he sources his rims from Gigantex or another reputable Taiwanese manufacturer, but I have my doubts.

My only gripe against Zipp is that they don't offer a rim only option, if they did I'd love a set of these built on Alchemy ELF & ORC with Aerolite spokes... in the meantime Enve/Reynolds/Gigantex seem to be picking up that part of the market, each at a different price-point (Gigantex<Reynolds</=Enve)
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby winstonw » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:23 pm

usernameforme wrote:I'm almost 100% certain that TWE just source Chinese rims and put their own badge on it, I would love to be proven wrong as Greg seems like a reputable guy.


I'd hazard a guess that no Australian wheel builder/manufacturer manufactures rims in Australia. Velocity certainly don't....they profit by paying less to Asian workers. I haven't been a regular buyer of wheels over the last 20 years, so I don't know if wheels have gone up in price in accord with CPI or not. Can anyone clarify whose been profiting from outsourcing production to cheaper Asian workers?
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby Xplora » Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:51 pm

The people have spoken, an interview with Greg is requested!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby Baldy » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:13 pm

Xplora wrote:The people have spoken, an interview with Greg is requested!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Yes I agree. He seems like an interesting bloke. My first question would be is it true you have no surname?

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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby __PG__ » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:05 am

usernameforme wrote:My only gripe against Zipp is that they don't offer a rim only option, if they did I'd love a set of these built on Alchemy ELF & ORC with Aerolite spokes... in the meantime Enve/Reynolds/Gigantex seem to be picking up that part of the market, each at a different price-point (Gigantex<Reynolds</=Enve)

Wheelbuilder.com will build you a custom wheelset using Zipp rims. However they don't ship outside of the USA so you'll have to rely on a mate or a shipping forwarding company to get them.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby usernameforme » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:40 am

I just found out that wheelbuilder are able to build up custom Zipps, the weights they claim for the Zipps are quite interesting, much heavier than I would like...
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby SpinninWheels » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:32 pm

SmellyTofu wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Very nice wheels that Zipp make... but you do seem to hear a lot of stories of failures with them.


Is that just the squeeky wheel syndrome?


I think it may be. I can count quickly 10+ friends who ride Zipps of various types... not one failure

I have been riding 404 firecrest for 6 months as my daily wheel, still as true as the day they were put on the bike.

I'm not as naive to think they never fail, but I suggest that the stories are often a bit more like Chinese whispers. The other consideration is you could expect some pretty fast responses and action from them if they did fail, unlike a lot of Chinese imports.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby Xplora » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:45 pm

^^^^ I'm willing to bet the issues that people face with Zipps aren't unrelated to them being close to the weight limit with huge Shane Perkins style quads cranking epic peak wattage... and I'm not sure these people would necessarily get better life from a different wheel. It's a competition wheel and it has a life cycle. I don't bitch about my hubs after taking them swimming. :idea:
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby Ross » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:32 pm

__PG__ wrote:Wheelbuilder.com will build you a custom wheelset using Zipp rims. However they don't ship outside of the USA so you'll have to rely on a mate or a shipping forwarding company to get them.


Since when? I bought a replacement Zipp rim from Wheelbuilder a few months back to replace one I damaged and they had no problem shipping it to Australia. Though at first they wanted me to ship the damaged wheel to them so they could replace the damged rim bit I said it wasn't viable because I live in Australia and then they agreed to send me just the rim.

Farsports have put a generous offer on the table but I'm not sure how many other brands like Enve or Zipp are going to be that generous. I guess Chris can only ask. Worst they can say is no.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:14 pm

Come on it's not that big a list!... in recent years :lol:
OK last 5 or 6 years on road bikes... 2 snapped axles DuraAce 7800, DuraAce 7800 rim failure, Ultegra hub failure, Aksium rim failure, 2 or 3 Ksyrium rim failures, Ksyrium hub cracks...and only one Ksyrium snapped spoke!.
I did have a set of DuraAce C50's that lasted a season but I sold them on before the inevitable.
See I would make a good test pilot... and to be honest I think I am pretty careful with my wheels.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby SmellyTofu » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:25 pm

SpinninWheels wrote:
I think it may be. I can count quickly 10+ friends who ride Zipps of various types... not one failure

I have been riding 404 firecrest for 6 months as my daily wheel, still as true as the day they were put on the bike.

I'm not as naive to think they never fail, but I suggest that the stories are often a bit more like Chinese whispers. The other consideration is you could expect some pretty fast responses and action from them if they did fail, unlike a lot of Chinese imports.


The other thing that I love about Zipps (and mine is just pedestrian level, not 404s) is the massively loud hubs. It gets the attention from inattentive pedestrians/slower cyclist where normally we'd have to slow down, ring a bell if available and move around them very carefully.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby AUbicycles » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:51 pm

Discussion on Chinese Carbon Fibre Wheels has been moved here so we can speak about Zipp here.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby schroeds » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:03 pm

For what it's worth I had the huuugest hit, straight into a curb sized concrete thingy that the council had thoughtfully installed in a marked bike lane, anyway I went face first at 30kmh, :cry: and when I finally stopped whimpering as I left casualty and got home took a quick look at what I assumed would be my destroyed 404 front wheel and/or broken forks on my Look 595.....

Nothing. Nada. All fine. :lol:

Obviously I have no idea if cheap gear would have survived just as well, but it certainly seemed to me that right there is why you bother to pay top dollar for superbly made gear.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby toppity » Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:21 am

I've got both a TWE rear and Zipp 404 (both tublular, both running the same tyres). The TWE has a ceramic bearing ( :oops: ) the Zipp does not. Without going into heaps of reasons, the Zipp is stiffer and faster.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby AUbicycles » Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:22 am

I was fascinated by the feedback from Josh at Zipp on the ceramic bearings. It was specific to their wheels, the advantage of a ceramic bearing upgrade on Zipps and the general image of ceramic bearings in the market. If you are getting new wheels made up or old wheels refurbished, ceramic bearings should be considered though can cost a few dollars or many hundreds of dollars for a single bearing and this represents a vaste range in quality and performance.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby __PG__ » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:38 pm

Ross wrote:
__PG__ wrote:Wheelbuilder.com will build you a custom wheelset using Zipp rims. However they don't ship outside of the USA so you'll have to rely on a mate or a shipping forwarding company to get them.


Since when? I bought a replacement Zipp rim from Wheelbuilder a few months back to replace one I damaged and they had no problem shipping it to Australia. Though at first they wanted me to ship the damaged wheel to them so they could replace the damged rim bit I said it wasn't viable because I live in Australia and then they agreed to send me just the rim.

You're right. I just tried to order a custom Zipp from them and their website said they had no issues with it.
I'm confusing them with Enve. From the wheelbuilder website:
Due to our international distribution agreement with Enve, we are no longer able to deliver Enve rims to customers outside of the United States or Puerto Rico.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby frb_bike » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:26 am

FYI someone I know had their Zipp wheels fail (ie. crack) while straight descending at 60kph which caused them to crash resulting in multiple broken bones plus a write off of a very expensive bike.

Granted they were 7 years old but there is no used by date on wheels.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby greyhoundtom » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:20 am

frb_bike wrote:FYI someone I know had their Zipp wheels fail (ie. crack) while straight descending at 60kph which caused them to crash resulting in multiple broken bones plus a write off of a very expensive bike.

Granted they were 7 years old but there is no used by date on wheels.

This brings up an interesting point in as much as carbon fibre products that are subject to lots of hard sudden knocks and stress such as wheels, can fracture or de-laminate in such a way that it is difficult to see with the naked eye.

Just maybe there should be a “used by date” in relation to distance travelled on CF wheels, at which point they should be subject to being X rayed for fractures or other faults.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:01 am

Here is an interesting whitepaper looking at material properties by Calfee Design.

On the one hand Carbon Fibre has a theoretical longer lifespan, on the other, it comes down to design and usage as Carbon Fibre is not, in its entirety, as forgiving as other materials if it receives stress or pressure in different directions to which it was designed. Aside from the product design, there are also potential influences that can affect the integrity of carbon.

Calfee Design Whitepaper wrote:Bonding failures can stem from an act as simple as storing a bike in the trunk of a car. Under even a moderate sun, the interior can easily achieve temperatures more than 180 degrees Fahrenheit. Similarly, transporting a bike in the cargo space of a plane (which can become extremely cold at high-altitudes) can have detrimental effects on the structural integrity of the frame.


One topic addressed in the whitepaper is the Carbon Fibre is still a relatively young material and there is plenty of learning and improvement. In the long term - X-raying could become more common.
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Re: There's fine, and then there's Zipp

Postby winstonw » Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:01 pm

Just browsing the Zipp website.
Who would have thunk it?

Product note:

The wide profile of the 303 Firecrest is crucial to Zipp’s revolutionary Firecrest technology used to create wheels with superior aerodynamics as well as improved stability and handling.

The rear 303 Firecrest, however, may present some fitment issues for a small number of road and triathlon frames. The clearance between the chainstay and the rim may not be adequate to avoid contact between each other when ridden under load.

We urge customers who plan on riding the 303 Firecrest to test the wheel within the frame in which they intend to ride it, under normal riding and road conditions, before purchasing. Clearance within individual frames of the same size, from the same manufacturer, may vary. That is why it is imperative that you test the wheel in your frame, or in the frame that you are considering purchasing.

Customers who run into this fitment issue may select any other spoked wheel within the Zipp lineup as an alternative,including the 404 Firecrest with its narrower aero-width profile.

Below is a list of known frames that may present this issue. This list will be updated if this fitment issue is discovered elsewhere.

Specialized Tarmac SL4
Specialized S-Works McLaren Venge
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