Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Scarfy96 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:58 pm

damhooligan wrote:But nobody seems to be concerned about the fact that strava is influencing cyclists, and causing them to break those rules ?
I find that strange.


Strava doesn't cause anything. The rider consciously chooses to ignore other dangers in pursuit of a better time. That is not the fault of strava.

I know plenty of guys that commute and know their "best time" home and actively try to beat that, strava or no strava.

Strava is a tool, no more. Don't blame a tool for shoddy workmanship.
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by BNA » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:03 pm

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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby azzurribike » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:03 pm

Blaming Strava is just one more thing to add to the now seemingly endless list of Nanny State items.

Take responsibility and HTFU, we all know the risks riding, there will always be some who are prepared to push the boundaries.

Do any of us blame car manufacturers for road deaths because someone may have read a brochure that pointed out the V8 can do 200+Km/hr and then bought the car. Strava just tempts like the brochure. Then it's up to us how we behave isn't it???!!!!!!
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Chris249 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:22 pm

azzurribike wrote:Do any of us blame car manufacturers for road deaths because someone may have read a brochure that pointed out the V8 can do 200+Km/hr and then bought the car.


Yes, we do things just like that.

See for example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercar_scare

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-fe ... 20sfx.html

Just to repeat - I am NOT saying that Strava should be banned. I am just pointing out that "taking responsibility" extends to those who make things too. And notice that the "supercar scare" where manufacturers were blamed for deaths in V8s occurred 30 years ago. Holding creators responsible for accidents possibly encouraged by their creations and marketing is a very old concept and not a new "nanny state" thing.

There's an interesting difference in the way some people see encouragement. When comedians make jokes about driving over cyclists, we say to them "you can't do that because you will encourage people to attack cyclists." When judges don't shoot drivers who hit cyclists, we say to them "you must hand down tougher sentences or you will encourage people to attack cyclists." Yet when someone makes something that seems to encourage racing, we say "that's OK, we won't hold you responsible for encouraging people to ride dangerously."

In all three cases, people could be seen as encouraging others to do dangerous things. In the first two cases we hold the "encouragers" responsible for the acts of others....is the third "encourager" really completely different? It's not the same, but it can be seen an a complex and interesting case and not open and shut.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:57 pm

azzurribike wrote:Blaming Strava is just one more thing to add to the now seemingly endless list of Nanny State items.

Take responsibility and HTFU, we all know the risks riding, there will always be some who are prepared to push the boundaries.

Do any of us blame car manufacturers for road deaths because someone may have read a brochure that pointed out the V8 can do 200+Km/hr and then bought the car. Strava just tempts like the brochure. Then it's up to us how we behave isn't it???!!!!!!


These statements pretty much sums up the whole debate. :wink: Oh I forgot, some fool, with to much time on their hands sittin behind a desk, hasn't done up a OHS contingency document for this App. :roll:

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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby azzurribike » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:00 pm

I take you point about 'encouragement' but how each segment is ridden is purely up to the rider on the day. I am 'encouraged' by Strava to race segments. How I ride them is up to me. Safely BTW!
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Kenzo » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:10 pm

V8 supercar racing makes me drive faster through the streets.
Rally car racing makes me drift my Subaru through turns.
Formula 1 racing made me lower the suspension so I can get nice sparks when I hit bumps.
NRL makes me shoulder charge every chance I can in a tackle.
AFL on TV makes me want to stomp on someone's back so I can try to get more height.
Anytime someone brushes past me in the office - Italian league football (la Lega) makes me want to lie on the ground, roll around grabbing my ankle and grimace until they leave in disgust.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:28 pm

^^^ :lol: :lol: ^^^

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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:08 pm

Chris, I think strava does realize that they have case to answer for in the downhill idiot's case... I expect that there will be a payout... It is USA after all. They also changed their terms of conditions after all the fuss came about to cover their arses a bit more.
I also know strava does encourage people to break the law... Look at the kom time for Centennial Park in Sydney. That is way above the posted speed limit.
No difference than from before Strava but just that now it is on a bigger scale... Strava's community should self police itself and people should just take responsibility for their actions.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby rockdoctor » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:28 pm

Chris249 wrote:there's a suggestion that Eddy Mercyx was complicit in career-ending injuries that happened to other riders who were trying to hang onto Mercyx downhill, because Mercyx pushed the limits too hard.


Seems to me that Mr Merckx was fine, but the others pushed to hard.

BTW for those who want to race, time trials, hill climbs and races can also be found at your local cycling club!


I shall be there racing legally on a public road on Sunday
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby damhooligan » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:09 pm

Baldy wrote:Ok so lets see if I have this right....

I go out and ride my bike alone =not racing.
I go out and ride my bike alone and then upload the ride to Strava= racing
Delete the ride from Strava=not racing

We are talking about the same ride.

This "racing" you talk about most people call training/exercise/recreation. People who do not and have never used Strava ride as fast or faster than those on Strava. They have been doing this for ever because the competition is with yourself. You need to get your head around this bit.

Will some people get carried away chasing the fastest time, yes. The same people will likely get carried away chasing their mates or some strangers or just because they are a badass mofo who must go fast everywhere. The point is you decide how to ride.


If you go out and ride you dont race.
If you go out and ride and upload your ride details, you dont race.
The statement of uploading a ride equals racing is wrong.

Racing to me is altering your ride in a way that your only goal is to be faster/better then someone else.
When you alter your ride, then you add an aditional risk.

You can ride and record and upload, without it being racing.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby damhooligan » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:09 pm

warthog1 wrote:
damhooligan wrote:

Racing safely...., on a public road.....

Think about that one.


Most club races and tt events in Vic are on public roads.


I have not raced in these events, so I dont know.
But i assume there are signs warning other traffic there is a public event ??
(seen them before)
I also think they race on quiet roads ?
So in a way within a controlled enviroment??

Again, I not experienced these myself, but thinking these events are not the same.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby damhooligan » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:10 pm

skull wrote:So then technically racing a bike isn't illegal.


Only with a police permit is it legal.
Without one, its illegal.

So technically it is illegal unless yu have a permit.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby damhooligan » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:10 pm

Chris249 wrote:Can't the "people just have to take responsibility for their own actions" line be taken both ways?

The creators of Strava took an action. That action was the creation and promotion of Strava. There's a fair bit of evidence around that at least one guy died while specifically trying to regain his KOM. Sure, to most of us he was an idiot. However, if we all have to take responsibility for our own actions, and it was easy to see that once Strava was created then people would get excited and exceed their limitations to stay on the leaderboard, then does Strava necessarily get off scot free?

When people street race against each other in cars and one of them kills an innocent driver in a third vehicle, most observers seem to blame both racers as we know that racing is less likely when there is no one to race against. In Pro Cycling mag this month, there's a suggestion that Eddy Mercyx was complicit in career-ending injuries that happened to other riders who were trying to hang onto Mercyx downhill, because Mercyx pushed the limits too hard. And I'm sure when we were little kids, if we dared our mates to do something stupid and the mate got hurt, we copped a hiding for encouraging them. So there are comparable situations where we blame those who laid the challenge as well as those who took the challenge up. Is Strava necessarily completely different?

The point is that taking responsibility for our own actions can run both ways, and from some points of view Strava can be guilty just like we were guilty when we were kids and we challenged mates to do stupid things like seeing who would let off a firecracker held in our teeth. Sure, Strava is one step removed. And sure, anyone dumb enough to go for a downhill Strava segment deserves what they get IMHO. All I'm saying is that it may not be as simple as some are making out. If you choose to create something that could encourage people to do dumb things then you could perhaps be seen to be responsible, as it was your action that encouraged the stupidity.

I'm NOT saying that Strava is guilty, I'm just putting forward the view that it's not a dead simple issue.

BTW for those who want to race, time trials, hill climbs and races can also be found at your local cycling club!



wel said chris.

This is pretty much along the lines I was thinking.
But couldn't get the words out as nicely as you did.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Kenzo » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:00 pm

So every time speed is involved in a car crash should we be looking to sue the promoters of motorsports?
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby damhooligan » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:08 pm

Kenzo wrote:So every time speed is involved in a car crash should we be looking to sue the promoters of motorsports?

Motorsports as well as professional cycling races do not present opportunity to race in public.

So no. Thats different.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Kenzo » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:12 pm

But an empty highway presents an opportunity...
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby ldrcycles » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:27 pm

From what i've read about one of the deaths in America

A car pulled out in front of the cyclist

The cyclist was exceeding the speed limit by a considerable margin.

Yet it's not the motorist's fault for pulling out in front of oncoming traffic, it's not the cyclist's fault for exceeding the speed limit, it's Strava's fault. Sure.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby warthog1 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:50 pm

damhooligan wrote:Racing to me is altering your ride in a way that your only goal is to be faster/better then someone else.
When you alter your ride, then you add an aditional risk.



FFS its easy to get into an argument on here lately :roll:

Racing to you is obviously different than it is to most people then.
Racing is not an oppurtunity to suspend reasonable behaviour. Most people I haved raced with and against still retain a healthy degree of self preservation and considerate behaviour toward those they are racing with. If they display stupid/dangerous behaviour they soon recieve an attitude adjustment IME.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby damhooligan » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:50 pm

Kenzo wrote:But an empty highway presents an opportunity...

I take it you like fishing???
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby damhooligan » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:52 pm

ldrcycles wrote:From what i've read about one of the deaths in America

A car pulled out in front of the cyclist

The cyclist was exceeding the speed limit by a considerable margin.

Yet it's not the motorist's fault for pulling out in front of oncoming traffic, it's not the cyclist's fault for exceeding the speed limit, it's Strava's fault. Sure.


Its not about blame here...
But strava does play a part in this story...no??
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby warthog1 » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:57 pm

damhooligan wrote:
warthog1 wrote:
damhooligan wrote:

Racing safely...., on a public road.....

Think about that one.


Most club races and tt events in Vic are on public roads.


I have not raced in these events, so I dont know.
But i assume there are signs warning other traffic there is a public event ??
(seen them before)
I also think they race on quiet roads ?
So in a way within a controlled enviroment??

Again, I not experienced these myself, but thinking these events are not the same.
Correct me if i'm wrong.


There are signs placed informing of a cycle race or the presence of cyclists yes.
However in the town I currently live and the town previous there are permanent signs on some routes.
Doesn't necessairily change driver behaviour.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:59 pm

We should also ban all group rides as nearly every group ride I have done has had a sprint in it somewhere or a race up a hill.
We should also ban plain old speedos on velos as well as someone might time them selves over one of their favorite pieces of road ( probably never breaking the speed limit or even getting close to it ). But still racing of course in the eyes of some.
Blah blah blah...
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby greyhoundtom » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:04 pm

If Strava is simply a place where you upload your rides, and one that simply places the fastest ride over a given distance at the top, no there is no way you could hold Strava responsible for the actions of riders trying to get the fastest time.

If however Strava emailed or notified a rider when they have lost their top spot, and encouraged them to better their time to regain that top spot, they then share some responsibility for the actions taken by that rider.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby damhooligan » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:06 pm

warthog1 wrote:
damhooligan wrote:Racing to me is altering your ride in a way that your only goal is to be faster/better then someone else.
When you alter your ride, then you add an aditional risk.



FFS its easy to get into an argument on here lately :roll:

Racing to you is obviously different than it is to most people then.
Racing is not an oppurtunity to suspend reasonable behaviour. Most people I haved raced with and against still retain a healthy degree of self preservation and considerate behaviour toward those they are racing with. If they display stupid/dangerous behaviour they soon recieve an attitude adjustment IME.


Is it not the object to win?
Is it not to push yourself that bit harder so you can win??

If i implied that people who race suspend reasonable behaviour i apologize.
Thats not intented.
Just saying that riding when racing is different then riding in general.
And by different i mean a higher risk.
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Re: Time out call for competitive cycling app Strava

Postby Mulger bill » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:16 pm

Kenzo wrote:So every time speed is involved in a car crash should we be looking to sue the promoters of motorsports?

Only within a 100km radius of circuits :wink:
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