Surly Troll Rohloff build

Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby alexf » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:25 pm

I am about to embark on building two Surly Trolls for touring, and thought I would document/ask questions about the build here. They will be Rohloff equipped and have front disc brakes, and not too dissimilar to other Surly Troll builds. Bikewagon has the cheapest Surly Troll (~$460 shipped) so I've ordered a 18" from them. The next step is to get the hub + spokes + rim...
alexf
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:55 pm

by BNA » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:34 pm

BNA
 

Which spokes for Rohloff OEM2 (non disc, internal gear mech)

Postby alexf » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:34 pm

Due to GST we will be getting the base Rohloff 36 spoke OEM2 model with internal gear mech. Currently Bike24 can do it shipped for about 900 AUD. I am looking at the Andra 30 CSS rim. I can't find a reliable ERD for the Andra 30, and Rohloff ( http://www.rohloff.de/en/technology/wor ... index.html ) specs the spoke length based on the 32 hole Andra. From this calculator I get that the 32 hole Andra requires 238mm spokes (which is collaborated with the rohloff spec sheet), which means the 36 hole Andra should lead to 234mm spokes. The ERD given by this calculator is 538.4 mm, which is a bit different from the sjscycles value of 535.9.

I wonder whether @il padrone can weigh in and say which length spokes he used for his build? In any case I will use the DT Swiss competition spokes which bike24 has. In the worst case scenario I will buy spokes from Cheeky Monkey in Newtown/get them to build the wheel for me if they are willing.
alexf
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:55 pm

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby alexf » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:05 pm

Having had a look at http://www.nabendynamo.de/service/pdf/s ... th2012.pdf I am convinced that the ERD of the Andra is indeed 538.4... and will order the 234mm spokes... :)
alexf
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:55 pm

Re: Which spokes for Rohloff OEM2 (non disc, internal gear m

Postby il padrone » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:24 pm

alexf wrote:I wonder whether @il padrone can weigh in and say which length spokes he used for his build?

I don't know what length they are. I let my reliable LBS do the wheel build for me :wink:

BTW I see very little need for the 36 spoke Rohloff unless you are building for a tandem, or weigh >100kg. The symetric dish of a Rohloff makes for a much stronger wheel to start with and 32 are plenty strong enough. It is the recommendation of Thorn for their Nomad expedition tourer and so far I have had no spoke worries.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18274
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby alexf » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:13 pm

Thanks. What size are the spare spokes you carry? ;)

Well, I figured since it's available in 36 hole, I might as well get them in the 36 option. Although, doing so means forgoing the Andra 30 drilling for rohloff, I think. I shot sjscycles a question on that, yet to receive a reply.
alexf
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:55 pm

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby Baalzamon » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:49 pm

I ordered 238mm for my Rohloff 32 hole spokes
btw I was 110kg for the rohloff.
Masi Speciale CX 2008 - Brooks B17 special saddle, Garmin Edge 810
Image
Baalzamon
 
Posts: 4588
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:23 pm
Location: Yangebup

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby il padrone » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:20 pm

alexf wrote:Thanks. What size are the spare spokes you carry? ;)

At the moment I'm not carrying any spares. You see, despite carrying spares for the old tourer for many years, I have not broken a spoke since pre-1993. I did break a spoke once on the road bike, but it turned out that was the first of a series all due to a bad batch of spokes used in a wheel-build that had corrosive fractures. Got both the wheels completely rebuilt for free :) . In my experience a well-built wheel with stainless steel spokes (of suitable gauge) does not break spokes. I have gone through rims quicker than spokes.

The Rohloff with a symmetrical wheel is going to be even less likely to break spokes.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18274
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Which spokes for Rohloff OEM2 (non disc, internal gear m

Postby RonK » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:32 pm

alexf wrote:I wonder whether @il padrone can weigh in and say which length spokes he used for his build? In any case I will use the DT Swiss competition spokes which bike24 has. In the worst case scenario I will buy spokes from Cheeky Monkey in Newtown/get them to build the wheel for me if they are willing.

Well il padrone can't - but I can. You are quite right - I used 238mm Sapim Race spokes to build my Rohloff/32 hole Andra wheel.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
User avatar
RonK
 
Posts: 5280
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby alexf » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:52 pm

Thanks guys. I had forgotten the two of you from the Thorn thread :p

Excellent, I think I will be safe with the 234mm then for the 36 hole, if anyone is interested, this was the reply from sjs regarding andra rohloff drillings: "There is no 36h Rohloff specific Andra rim. When building in a 36h pattern the spokes don’t enter the rim at such an angle as with 32h so there is no need."

Hmm... now 32 hole vs 36 hole... this is another can of worms which I have totally not considered...
alexf
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:55 pm

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:49 pm

alexf wrote:I am about to embark on building two Surly Trolls for touring, and thought I would document/ask questions about the build here. They will be Rohloff equipped and have front disc brakes, and not too dissimilar to other Surly Troll builds. Bikewagon has the cheapest Surly Troll (~$460 shipped) so I've ordered a 18" from them. The next step is to get the hub + spokes + rim...

Gotta link AlexF? I cant see their Troll frameset page. Shame their Ogre prices arent reflected as cheaply.
Why that choice of rim if your going for disk brakes? I understood the attraction for the carbide coating they offer for rim brakes but not for disks.
Also I found Starbike (a month ago) had the best price for Rohloff and my cross country, disk braked and oem2 mounted version with the external gear change came in at a smidgeon under the GST threshold and suffered no customs fee.
When I ordered I dont think Bike24 offered the 36H version which was another reason of trying to buy via Starbike which had perviously denied Aussie sales.
Cheers
Aidan
Surly Ogre, Carry Freedom Y-frame Trailer, Extrawheel trailer.
User avatar
rifraf
 
Posts: 2522
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:55 pm
Location: Two Rocks, WA

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby alexf » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:11 pm

Oh well. I did it, went for 32 hole cc oem rohloff hub, and got the oem2 plate, and also 32 dt swiss competition spokes. Including postage: $1000 AUD. I am going to order the Andra CSS rim from cheeky monkey.

Bikewagon seems to be having issues with supply of the Troll 18", but the 20" is [url="http://www.bikewagon.com/surly-troll-frameset-20-orange"]here[/url]. They also have a 10% off code, MERRY10 valid till 25/12.

I am not planning on using disc brakes at the back anymore, thus the choice of rim.
alexf
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:55 pm

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby RonK » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:05 pm

You won't need/can't use the OEM2 axle plate on the Ogre, which has horizontal dropouts. The OEM plate will work fine.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
User avatar
RonK
 
Posts: 5280
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:13 pm

RonK wrote:You won't need/can't use the OEM2 axle plate on the Ogre, which has horizontal dropouts. The OEM plate will work fine.

Sorry Ron, (not really as you've gotten me too many times now its my turn LOL :wink: :lol: :lol: )
Unless the Surly web page blurb is wrong:
"a dedicated anchoring point for a Rohloff OEM2 axle plate."

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/ogre
4th paragraph down.

and the Troll:
"There’s a dedicated area for anchoring a Rohloff hub OEM2 axle plate, and we’ve included threaded M10 x 1mm holes for installing Surly trailer-mounting nuts or B.O.B. Nutz."
http://surlybikes.com/bikes/troll
3rd paragraph down

Gotta admit you had me passing a brick there for a minute though as it was the OEM2 mount that I ordered/received.

Whoops - no it wasnt - I got the OEM (1) and not the version 2 :oops:
Last edited by rifraf on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Surly Ogre, Carry Freedom Y-frame Trailer, Extrawheel trailer.
User avatar
rifraf
 
Posts: 2522
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:55 pm
Location: Two Rocks, WA

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby il padrone » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Surly really seem to like to have double-redundancy in their frames :?

RonK is right on one count - you don't need the OEM2 plate.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18274
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:51 pm

il padrone wrote:Surly really seem to like to have double-redundancy in their frames :?

RonK is right on one count - you don't need the OEM2 plate.

Oh all right, steal my thunder why dont cha :wink: :lol: :lol:

Whats the essential difference between the two mounts (OEM).
If you missed my post elsewhere I managed to grab off ebay a long torque arm kit to give me more
flexibility in frame choices with my hub.
I think I've grasped the difference between the Oem2 and the torque arm set up but have yet to look at the
Oem1.
Surly Ogre, Carry Freedom Y-frame Trailer, Extrawheel trailer.
User avatar
rifraf
 
Posts: 2522
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:55 pm
Location: Two Rocks, WA

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby il padrone » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:08 pm

OEM axle-plate - tab slides into the elongated axle slot (vertical or horizontal)

Image


OEM2 axle-plate - crescent-shaped hollow sits against disc-brake mount

Image

Both are available as either a QR fitting or as a solid axle end.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18274
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:25 pm

The penny drops.......... onto my foot which ends up in my mouth :lol: :lol: :oops:

Just realised I've the OEM and not the OEM2 like I thought. - Glad I asked.

I think I can now see what people were talking about regarding complications with removing the rear wheel
for puncture repair with the Surlys.

But you suggest the OEM (1) should work fine?

A very quick squiz at starbike suggests they don't offer a complete hub with Oem2 so that clears that up (I think).

They do sell the Oem2 plate as an extra though for 21.50 € http://www.starbike.com/p/Rohloff-Axle-plate-2481-en
Last edited by rifraf on Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Surly Ogre, Carry Freedom Y-frame Trailer, Extrawheel trailer.
User avatar
rifraf
 
Posts: 2522
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:55 pm
Location: Two Rocks, WA

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby il padrone » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:44 pm

Hmm.... it really depends a bit on the depth of the axle slot, but with the rear-facing horizontal slots it is complicated by the wear (elongation) of the chain. In this sort of chain length the tab will not properly engage the slot:

Image


OEM2 may be a more trouble-free choice.


Incidentally these rear-facing slots are one of the prime reasons that rear wheel removal and fitting will be more tricky with the Ogre/Troll. My Nomad has less fussy vertical drop-outs, combined with an eccentric bottom bracket to accommodate the chain elongation.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18274
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:10 pm

I've still got to grab a disk braked Son28 so I'll get the OEM2 mount at the same time I guess. :idea:
Surly Ogre, Carry Freedom Y-frame Trailer, Extrawheel trailer.
User avatar
rifraf
 
Posts: 2522
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:55 pm
Location: Two Rocks, WA

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby RonK » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:27 pm

I had to buy the OEM2 plate separately for my Pioneer, which has short vertical dropouts, no disc brakes, and a uses an eccentric bottom bracket for chain adjustment. The Van Nicholas dropouts have a built-in locating point for the cap head bolt which is provided with the OEM2 plate.

For an OEM2 plate to work the locating point would also have to be slotted. Perhaps it is.

No doubt the Surly frames are versatile, but they also incur inconvenient compromises.

Given a choice between a Surly and a Thorn, I'd have to choose to put up with the prickly Robin.
Last edited by RonK on Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
User avatar
RonK
 
Posts: 5280
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby il padrone » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:39 pm

RonK wrote:For an OEM2 plate to work the locating point would also have to be slotted.

The Ogre has slotted mounts for the disc brake so this is not an issue.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18274
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:40 pm

RonK wrote:I had to buy the OEM2 plate separately for my Pioneer, which has short vertical dropouts, no disc brakes, and a uses an eccentric bottom bracket for chain adjustment. The Van Nicholas dropouts have a built-in fixing point for the cap head bolt which is provided with the OEM2 plate.

For an OEM2 plate to work the locating point would also have to be slotted.

No doubt the Surly frames are versatile, but they also incur inconvenient compromises.


Its always a balance I guess. The other attractive (to me) frames come at a price premium and dont offer disk brakes
or if they do its at the cost of some ability to utilise racks and fenders. I've looked at both the Pioneer and the Nomad and appreciate their strengths. I also appreciate the Surly's versatility for a relatively budget price by comparison. Swings and roundabouts. Still if there was a perfect frame I guess we'd all be riding the same bike.
Surly Ogre, Carry Freedom Y-frame Trailer, Extrawheel trailer.
User avatar
rifraf
 
Posts: 2522
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:55 pm
Location: Two Rocks, WA

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:44 pm

alexf wrote:I am about to embark on building two Surly Trolls for touring, and thought I would document/ask questions about the build here. They will be Rohloff equipped and have front disc brakes, and not too dissimilar to other Surly Troll builds. Bikewagon has the cheapest Surly Troll (~$460 shipped) so I've ordered a 18" from them. The next step is to get the hub + spokes + rim...


Not leaving you out here Alexf, how bout some of the reasoning that determined your frame choice?
Oh and we want to see lots of pics of your build too - start, during and completion :D
Surly Ogre, Carry Freedom Y-frame Trailer, Extrawheel trailer.
User avatar
rifraf
 
Posts: 2522
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:55 pm
Location: Two Rocks, WA

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby RonK » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:45 pm

You overrate the value of disc brakes, and overlook some of the consequences, such having to dish the front wheel, not at desirable for a load carrying wheel.

Rohloff-specific frames are inevitably more expensive - the market is much smaller. But for the extra money you get custom dropouts, eccentric bb's and dedicated cable routing.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
User avatar
RonK
 
Posts: 5280
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:19 pm

RonK wrote:You overrate the value of disc brakes, and overlook some of the consequences, such having to dish the front wheel, not at desirable for a load carrying wheel.

Rohloff-specific frames are inevitably more expensive - the market is much smaller. But for the extra money you get custom dropouts, eccentric bb's and dedicated cable routing.


Hmmmmmm disk brakes over rated
Perhaps, but I'm only in my mid 40's and am retro grouch about most of my other gear so am prepared to move on with these.
As Shimano, last I'd looked, had done away with XTR V-brakes and changed the XT to SLX level equivalent in design, I dont think its just a matter of overrating the disks but somewhat of moving with the times. It seems obvious that the technological leaps are going to be aimed at disk technology and not V-brakes "IF" I'm not entirely mistaken.

As for the front wheel, I'll just have to take as many of your load lightening tips on board as I can bare :wink:
Load baring dished rear wheels have been around for as long as free hubs and managed many a mile so while I think symmetrical hub flanges do indeed have advantages, its not the be all and end all (I hope :lol: ).
Surly Ogre, Carry Freedom Y-frame Trailer, Extrawheel trailer.
User avatar
rifraf
 
Posts: 2522
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:55 pm
Location: Two Rocks, WA

Next

Return to Touring Bikes and Equipment

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit
cron