Enough is enough

Re: Enough is enough

Postby stealthbike » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:15 am

It is the well crafted ones that I would not like to see painted in a corner or out of the picture because we all bundle them into the same basket as the "loose associations". As peds that I speak to seem to do.

Yes, even the good ones find it difficult however to moderate speed quickly and my response to them is to accommodate them by doing the slowing myself and moving across. Regardless of the legal bits and bobs.


Totally agree that there is a clear distiction between "well crafted" groups and loose associations. I too move across to accommodate them too - to avoid being hit but the point of the OP, whether they be loose associations or well crafted groups, by riding two abreast, they are creating danger for other riders and themselves. The path is not wide enough, to accommodate any contingency when things go wrong. On 99% of occasions nothing does go wrong but on the 1% when there is a problem, that is when people get hurt. It takes some time and distance for groups riding in pairs to move into single file. If the intention was to to do so when an oncoming rider is sighted, it would be too late to accommodate this action.
I would argue that if a group is riding two abreast on a PSP then by virtue of their actions (and ignorance of the law/danger) they are not "well crafted".

I think something many experienced cyclists may not realise is just how intimidating a group of cyclists travelling in the oposite direction can be. One Saturday my regular shop group rode to Mandurah on the Kwinana PSP, we rode in single file and on a straight quiet section quite a way south of Perth we encounted a couple of 'recreational cyclists' coming the other way. For no logical reason, one of these two riders panicked and moved into the path of our group. The result was that both she and one of my riders were hospitalised with nasty, deep lacerations and shock. My point is that groups on PSPs do not know for certain what the oncoming (or overtaken) cyclists will do and there is no opportunity to react if you are in a bunch.

This question may be better in it's own thread if it is highly complex or contentious but here goes - As you have identified yourself as a group rider you may be able to give me an idea of how people *should* get into riding in a group as I have always understood that do do a good job, especially at speed, requires a lot more than just learning the hand signals. How does a group accommodate different capacity riders and for example. I think of group rides a little like a flight of ducks - Each one mirrors the actions in front a moment later so you would not a more powerful duck or one that corners differently in the group. And do riders in a proper (not loosley associated) have very similar configurations? Does a flat bar rider could respond differently timing wise and if so should they be riding only with similar bikes?


Colin, you are right, I will start a new thread to respond to this.
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by BNA » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:34 pm

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Re: Enough is enough

Postby MarkG » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:34 pm

The grey brigade were out in full-danger causing mode on Saturday morning.
If you must ride at 20 k / hr, please don't ride two a breast, with the occasional straggler even crossing the middle line.
I would hate to see the result of a 60 something year old pensioner crashing head on in to some one in the opposite direction.

Also to the genius on the recumbrent who decides "why not stop on the middle of the PSP to adjust my bike" use your brain.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby elStado » Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:59 am

I was just about to make a similar thread. Morning ride to an appointment today I had to contend with a number of very large groups (14 to 30+ people) riding double-file with the occasional third person sitting wide. I was almost clipped a few times as they take up 3/4 of the path and I am forced over into the far left of my own lane. Add some pedestrians, kids, animals and slow cyclists into the mix during busy periods, as well as other large groups, and this is a recipe for disaster.

Every so often, after a few close shaves and my patience has worn thin, I will give a large, dangerous group some showtime and tell them to go single file and break up.. as per the OP I usually get ignored or cop abuse / sniggering. This is dangerous, rude and obnoxious behaviour that is putting other path users at serious risk and we should be finding a way to have it stopped. Groups of high speed cyclists do not have a right to use the path if they do not ride in a legal, safe, courteous manner.

Please if any of you are reading this then be aware that other people are noticing it, and we are sick and tired of this behaviour. Please do not ride in groups larger than 6 people and only ride in single file. Additionally ride in a safe organised manner and give other users space when you overtake them (I've been buzzed by groups of roadies with only CM to spare on a number of occasions with no pre-warning!).

In the mean-time I am going to continue to let groups know that they are in the wrong, in a very loud and aggressive manner from now on. BE WARNED :!:
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby 88mph » Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:21 pm

Riding south on the Kwinanna Fwy PSP last week with a group of about 5 riders approaching.............Can you believe it? 3 a breast at the front of the group.

The worst part is, they didn't even move over for me, essentially forced me off into the dirt.

Apart from being seriously unsafe, its just downright rude.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby dynamictiger » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:11 pm

Came across this behaviour for the first time on about the 27th or so. On my way to work various cycling groups going the opposite way. I got reasonably annoyed when one of these groups decided they had right of way through some bollards on a shared psp. So I just stopped and put both feet on the ground. I did form a reasonably effective roadblock and strangely wasn't given much cheek to my face anyway. Honestly I'm not that scary unless I loose my temper which I seldom do :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:01 pm

dynamictiger wrote:Came across this behaviour for the first time on about the 27th or so. On my way to work various cycling groups going the opposite way. I got reasonably annoyed when one of these groups decided they had right of way through some bollards on a shared psp. So I just stopped and put both feet on the ground. I did form a reasonably effective roadblock and strangely wasn't given much cheek to my face anyway. Honestly I'm not that scary unless I loose my temper which I seldom do :twisted: :twisted:


This. If you're stopped you can't be bullied off the path. If your bike happens to be standing on the back wheel in the granny ring so the first thing they'll contact in a collision is 50-53 sharp teeth, so much the better. :twisted:

I'll lay any odds you like they drive their smokeboxes in a similar fashion :roll:
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Marty Moose » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:27 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
dynamictiger wrote:Came across this behaviour for the first time on about the 27th or so. On my way to work various cycling groups going the opposite way. I got reasonably annoyed when one of these groups decided they had right of way through some bollards on a shared psp. So I just stopped and put both feet on the ground. I did form a reasonably effective roadblock and strangely wasn't given much cheek to my face anyway. Honestly I'm not that scary unless I loose my temper which I seldom do :twisted: :twisted:


This. If you're stopped you can't be bullied off the path. If your bike happens to be standing on the back wheel in the granny ring so the first thing they'll contact in a collision is 50-53 sharp teeth, so much the better. :twisted:

I'll lay any odds you like they drive their smokeboxes in a similar fashion :roll:

There was a thread about an aggressive cyclist on hear a while ago, most assumed he was mentally ill. If you behaved like that I'd hope you get what you deserve from an angry bunch.That type of suggestion makes you no better than the clowns on the wrong side of the path.

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Re: Enough is enough

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:02 pm

88mph wrote:Riding south on the Kwinanna Fwy PSP last week with a group of about 5 riders approaching.............Can you believe it? 3 a breast at the front of the group.

The worst part is, they didn't even move over for me, essentially forced me off into the dirt.

Apart from being seriously unsafe, its just downright rude.


I defy anyone to identify an organised group that does this however. I see the described behaviour a lot. Andit worries me as it worries others. But they do not appear to be anything except loose riders who stupidly bunch up. I maintain that we should not bundle them all together with the many organised moderate speed, predictable and well adjusted other group just because at some moment in time there are a large number of idiots that like to race and pass others . Not any more than I should bundle together everyone that rides a CF bike, rides in full team gear, rides flat bars, etc etc etc.

In this thread I see very little effort to differentiate. As I see in motorists who bundle all those on bikes as being one and the same with each other.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Marty Moose » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
88mph wrote:Riding south on the Kwinanna Fwy PSP last week with a group of about 5 riders approaching.............Can you believe it? 3 a breast at the front of the group.

The worst part is, they didn't even move over for me, essentially forced me off into the dirt.

Apart from being seriously unsafe, its just downright rude.


I defy anyone to identify an organised group that does this however. I see the described behaviour a lot. Andit worries me as it worries others. But they do not appear to be anything except loose riders who stupidly bunch up. I maintain that we should not bundle them all together with the many organised moderate speed, predictable and well adjusted other group just because at some moment in time there are a large number of idiots that like to race and pass others . Not any more than I should bundle together everyone that rides a CF bike, rides in full team gear, rides flat bars, etc etc etc.

In this thread I see very little effort to differentiate. As I see in motorists who bundle all those on bikes as being one and the same with each other.


The group that was involved in the accident on the PSP was the RIDERS CHOICE group ride. The Midland Jnr who caused this was on an organised RIDERS CHOICE group ride. Groups are at fault hopefully this will change their habits from now on.

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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:47 pm

Marty Moose wrote:There was a thread about an aggressive cyclist on hear a while ago, most assumed he was mentally ill. If you behaved like that I'd hope you get what you deserve from an angry bunch.That type of suggestion makes you no better than the clowns on the wrong side of the path.

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Your opinion. I'm just stationary on the path on the correct side of the centre line. Never had time to actually get off the bike yet. Done my time as a doormat for jerks, aint gonna happen again.

Anyway, 'drather be the assertive cyclist than THESE poor buggers. :roll:
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Marty Moose » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:12 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
Marty Moose wrote:There was a thread about an aggressive cyclist on hear a while ago, most assumed he was mentally ill. If you behaved like that I'd hope you get what you deserve from an angry bunch.That type of suggestion makes you no better than the clowns on the wrong side of the path.

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Your opinion. I'm just stationary on the path on the correct side of the centre line. Never had time to actually get off the bike yet. Done my time as a doormat for jerks, aint gonna happen again.

Anyway, 'drather be the assertive cyclist than THESE poor buggers. :roll:

Non of these people were stationary intentionality trying to cause as much damage as they can to another. Right our wrong side of the path two foolish actions can only equal foolish.

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Re: Enough is enough

Postby dynamictiger » Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:34 am

Marty Moose wrote:Non of these people were stationary intentionality trying to cause as much damage as they can to another. Right our wrong side of the path two foolish actions can only equal foolish.


However they were more than prepared to ride straight over the top of me through a space designed for one person... deliberately causing as much damage as they can to another.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby bardygrub » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:00 am

All of you lot get out on the country roads and do some real k's and stop being show ponys riding in town :P :P :P
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Marty Moose » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:46 am

dynamictiger wrote:
Marty Moose wrote:Non of these people were stationary intentionality trying to cause as much damage as they can to another. Right our wrong side of the path two foolish actions can only equal foolish.


However they were more than prepared to ride straight over the top of me through a space designed for one person... deliberately causing as much damage as they can to another.

I'm not saying I have a solution to the problem it comes down to the individual.There is a vast difference between stopping with both feet on the ground and holding up a chainring at someone. Their actions sound ignorant not malicious.

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Re: Enough is enough

Postby roller » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:15 am

a white line on the ground can turn normal humans into primitive territorial animals, white line fever i believe they call it.

potential scenes from PSP use in the future:

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Re: Enough is enough

Postby herzog » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:23 am

That does seem to be where the Perth scene is headed by the looks of things.

Some sort of circuit breaker is needed now.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Thoglette » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:42 pm

herzog wrote:That does seem to be where the Perth scene is headed by the looks of things.

Some sort of circuit breaker is needed now.


Like the so called "organised groups" (including local "fast" groups and touring teams) getting the heck off the PSPs and back on the road.

1/2 smiley only.

I occasionally ride around the river with a semi organised group (averaging below 24kph) and that's almost too fast for much of the South Perth section with just five or so of us. Thirty people steaming at well over 30kph is just madness.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby elStado » Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:00 pm

Thoglette wrote:I occasionally ride around the river with a semi organised group (averaging below 24kph) and that's almost too fast for much of the South Perth section with just five or so of us. Thirty people steaming at well over 30kph is just madness.


+1

These large fast groups need to get off the paths and go onto the roads where they belong. And the smaller/slower groups still need to adhere to path etiquette and ride in single file.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby just4tehhalibut » Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:45 pm

MarkG wrote:Also to the genius on the recumbrent who decides "why not stop on the middle of the PSP to adjust my bike" use your brain.

He's only riding a 'recumbrent' if he owns a recumbent and lives in Brentwood?

Actually it is getting to sound like maybe riding a recumbent trike with front fairing or full body covering, so that you take up the whole width of your half of the bike path, maybe that is genius. Means that approaching groups can't stray into your lane and anyone who does bounces off your fairing. A cargo bike with the horizontal racks for big loads, takes up most of the lane, looks massive, like a road train coming at you, this would also work. Commuting to work might mean riding something designed like it was out of "The Cars That Ate Paris". Or we look at ways to get the groups off the bikepaths. Dedicated training circuits for groups on the roads as like they've done in the triathlete mecca of the Gold Coast, maybe?
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby MarkG » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:59 pm

Huh ?
I couldn't care less what they are called, he's a moron none the less.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby just4tehhalibut » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:01 am

Whatever.
Scenario: at the next election the major parties realise that cycle safety is an important issue and will decide the election (I said scenario, not reality). Election won, the winning minority govt tries to implement their promises and immediately bans groups from using the Kwinana Freeway bikepath. Of course they enforce this by employing all the Mr AngryPants they can find, giving them stormtrooper uniforms and boxing gloves and sending them out onto the paths. Laws are also introduced to ban recumbrents. Groups can no longer use the bike path, where do they ride?

Well, most groups are regular, organised training rides, most routes fixed and mainly on roads, not paths. So it wouldn't take too much to change the routes to avoid bike paths. If the laws were changed and you had to it wouldn't take too much to reroute groups off the paths. It isn't happening now but maybe the feedback on this forum is saying that time is coming, if you're a member of one of these group rides it'd be cheaper over the long term to look for route alternatives than keep defending your group's presence on ever more populated turf. Also in the long term the members of your group are going to come from those individual weekend riders and weekday commuters that right now are getting squeezed out and cheesed off. If we don't keep cycling as enjoyable then group rides will go the way of club racing in WA.

So find a route around the river that is fast, safe, better for group rides (you can ride two abreast legally and appropriately, for a start). Then work to get this route given dedicated signage for other road users, "caution, athletes train on this road" is an example from QLD. And a step further, get those roads improved to cope with groups of bikes. We've put up with a lot of crap as cyclists in Perth, the freeway system cuts through the middle and the alternatives we're given are designed for the Sunday cyclist, not going anywhere or in a hurry. Problems with the bike network are usually only done when a nearby road gets an upgrade or fobbed off forever. The paths under Canning Bridge on both sides have always been dangerous and nothing is ever done to improve sightlines or the approaches when it would just take a couple of boardwalks. Perth isn't getting any smaller, even the roads that groups are riding now are going to get less friendly if we do nothing to preserve them for cyclists. Pick a road route and do something about it.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Roinik » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:04 pm

What about some cats eye's down the centreline? Dangerous - yes, however I hate riding over those damn things and I'm sure I'm not alone.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Easy rider » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:51 pm

I think cats eyes would only encourage the outside tit in a two abreast group to stay into the oncoming lane instead of more or less following the dividing line.

For me on the Mts Bay Road path, two abreast groups are mainly a problem when someone tries to overtake me within my lane at the same time as I'm passing two riders together in the other lane.

Many overtakers seem unwilling to wait mere seconds until the oncoming lane is clear, resulting in four bikes across one path with a busy road inches away. Just a clip on the arm or handlebar can have drastic consequences to your steering I've discovered. I ride as far to the left as I can without colliding with truck mirrors and wide loads coming head on down the road. Riding to work used to be so relaxing.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby JBark » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:30 pm

Easy rider wrote:I think cats eyes would only encourage the outside tit in a two abreast group to stay into the oncoming lane instead of more or less following the dividing line.


Funny you mention that, I was about 50m behind a pair of riders last week doing exactly that from when I turned on at Canning Bridge to when I turned off down in South Lake. That's roughly 10km with one rider spending 100% of his time in the other lane, forcing all oncoming riders/pedestrians to move as far left as possible. Normally, I wouldn't be able to keep up with better riders to witness such a long stretch of asshattery, but the strong headwind slowed them down and the lights at Leach and South meant that I kept catching up to them.

And we wonder why pedestrians hate us so much, when we've got ambassadors like this giving us all a bad name.
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Re: Enough is enough

Postby Jonno » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:35 pm

Same issues have been around for a while, this was a former teacher of mine:

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western ... 1112546611

His was caused by poor maintenance among other things, so I encourage you all to keep onto your local councils regarding visibility.

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