There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Ross » Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:57 am

DentedHead wrote:Yet a surprising number of people believe we have no right or ability to police ourselves:

From the Moron Motorist thread regarding my suggested, minor vigilante-ism...
Ross wrote:There is NO excuse ANYTIME for vigilante justice.


Dent.


And I stand by that comment too. It makes the retaliator (is that a word?) as bad as the offender.
The police force and the court system have finite resources. They simply haven't got the resources to deal with every person that takes up 2 parking spaces or happens to drive too close to a cyclist. Perhaps the police should start investigating thse sort of offences more seriously and not worry about armed robberies, assaults and murders. Or maybe just sub-contract the justice of the minor offences such as parking to people like Dent who can be the judge, jury and executioner - multitasking, doing the job of 3 people - though the money saved in wages would probably be spent on thickshakes and black textas instead...
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby g-boaf » Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:06 am

winstonw wrote:
Alien27 wrote:Ohhh the 'STATE', must be a nasty piece of work that 'STATE'...


Save your sarcasm for the growing number of cyclists maimed or assaulted and unable to get the State to deal with it as they are contracted to do.


There is no particular 'contract' in that sense - but an understanding on our part that when we sign up, we will do our best to serve you given the resources we have available. While there might be a few bad apples (as there are in any organisation), the majority of us care a great deal about our work and serving the public.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Alien27 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:16 am

winstonw wrote:
Alien27 wrote:Ohhh the 'STATE', must be a nasty piece of work that 'STATE'...


Save your sarcasm for the growing number of cyclists maimed or assaulted and unable to get the State to deal with it as they are contracted to do.

[/quote]

Save your over simplification and finger pointing for the Daily Tele and Alan Jones

I probably shouldn't have had a shot at you but really "hang on......now let's get this straight"?

What is this 'STATE' anyway? Who were you trying to blame? Politicians/ Lawyers/ bureaucrats? the police? Voters that elect representatives that shape all the above? perhaps lobby groups and voters that make it imposable for politicians to raise taxes to fund a police force that can be everywhere at once and investigate every incident, along with a public prosecution and court system that can accommodate the increased workload, prisons that can accommodate the increased population etc, etc, etc...

Am I the state? what about you? what's the solution? how far do we go, do you advocate lobbying for a police man to every street corner? CCTV cameras covering every m2 of road?

I know your point is that we all need to be more politically active and press politicians to promote our own issues, fine, just dont expect a little sarcasm if you blame the 'STATE' or suggest it is a "ROGUE STATE that has abrogated its duties to its citizens".

We are one of the best if not the best country's in the world to live in. A lot of that is down to the fact that our political system is really top notch. Not perfect but a hell of a dam sight better than most, even just comparing it to western democratic systems we have a really really good system that works rather well.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Shifter » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:36 am

Ross wrote:The police force and the court system have finite resources. They simply haven't got the resources to deal with every person that takes up 2 parking spaces or happens to drive too close to a cyclist. Perhaps the police should start investigating thse sort of offences more seriously and not worry about armed robberies, assaults and murders.

Or the could create a greater public presence and start being preventative rather than reactive.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Xplora » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:51 am

Just had a quick look at the video. Offender is lucky he wasn't after me... I would have accelerated towards him when he left the car after all the chasing. I think with such video evidence it was clear that the driver could have been attempting to take my life, I mean I don't recall having anyone else chase me on the road like that?

Ross wrote:It makes the retaliator (is that a word?) as bad as the offender.


There is no real understanding of the offender being as bad as the retaliator in the public consciousness when there is a fair and reasonable expectation of punishment for the offender, and the state (cops) doesn't do its selfappointed job of granting justice. Morality isn't the same as justice in a secular context. There is nothing "just" about robbers, addicts and scumbags attacking people with no significant punishment or reparation. Paying the victim 5 bucks a week until the debt is paid for (if you can get it out of them!) isn't even close to fair and reasonable. I wouldn't be surprised if retaliation became more common if a relatively minor infringement for a clearly horrific attack was the only penalty applied. Justice WILL be handed out, and the cops surely understand that they must get involved otherwise it will be out of their hands (and I agree that state managed justice is preferable).

Alien27 wrote:We are one of the best if not the best country's in the world to live in. .... Not perfect but a hell of a dam sight better than most, even just comparing it to western democratic systems we have a really really good system that works rather well.

You need to expect more of your Parliament, you really should. Your participation in some other threads implies you are happy with the state to make unfounded restrictions on your liberty to your detriment; others strongly object to the state controlling our lives and the final insult is when they don't even bother to enforce the things they tell us we aren't allowed to manage ourselves.

It doesn't matter if we have a better system than most - the issue is that it is not good enough. You need to reconsider how much influence the state has on your life, because the current nanny state is a recent phenomenon.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby boss » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:30 am

When people start raving about nanny state... well...

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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby blkmcs » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:43 am

Xplora wrote:...You need to reconsider how much influence the state has on your life, because the current nanny state is a recent phenomenon.

The nanny state has been complained about since at least 1965 so hardly a recent phenomenon.
It is a phrase used by those without a cogent argument.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby boss » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:45 am

Duplicate post
Last edited by boss on Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby TimW » Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:50 am

Alien27"

I probably shouldn't have had a shot at you but really "hang on......now let's get this straight"?

What is this 'STATE' anyway? Who were you trying to blame? Politicians/ Lawyers/ bureaucrats? the police? Voters that elect representatives that shape all the above? perhaps lobby groups and voters that make it imposable for politicians to raise taxes to fund a police force that can be everywhere at once and investigate every incident, along with a public prosecution and court system that can accommodate the increased workload, prisons that can accommodate the increased population etc, etc, etc...

Am I the state? what about you? what's the solution? how far do we go, do you advocate lobbying for a police man to every street corner? CCTV cameras covering every m2 of road?

I know your point is that we all need to be more politically active and press politicians to promote our own issues, fine, just dont expect a little sarcasm if you blame the 'STATE' or suggest it is a "ROGUE STATE that has abrogated its duties to its citizens".

We are one of the best if not the best country's in the world to live in. A lot of that is down to the fact that our political system is really top notch. Not perfect but a hell of a dam sight better than most, even just comparing it to western democratic systems we have a really really good system that works rather well.



Amen well said :mrgreen:
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby greyhoundtom » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:20 pm

TimW wrote:
Alien27"

I probably shouldn't have had a shot at you but really "hang on......now let's get this straight"?

What is this 'STATE' anyway? Who were you trying to blame? Politicians/ Lawyers/ bureaucrats? the police? Voters that elect representatives that shape all the above? perhaps lobby groups and voters that make it imposable for politicians to raise taxes to fund a police force that can be everywhere at once and investigate every incident, along with a public prosecution and court system that can accommodate the increased workload, prisons that can accommodate the increased population etc, etc, etc...

Am I the state? what about you? what's the solution? how far do we go, do you advocate lobbying for a police man to every street corner? CCTV cameras covering every m2 of road?

I know your point is that we all need to be more politically active and press politicians to promote our own issues, fine, just dont expect a little sarcasm if you blame the 'STATE' or suggest it is a "ROGUE STATE that has abrogated its duties to its citizens".

We are one of the best if not the best country's in the world to live in. A lot of that is down to the fact that our political system is really top notch. Not perfect but a hell of a dam sight better than most, even just comparing it to western democratic systems we have a really really good system that works rather well.



Amen well said :mrgreen:

Bugger I've always thought a benevolent dictatorship would be the better option..........with me as the benevolent dictator. :wink: :lol:
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby InTheWoods » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:34 pm

greyhoundtom wrote:Bugger I've always thought a benevolent dictatorship would be the better option..........with me as the benevolent dictator. :wink: :lol:


Funny, I've often thought the same thing. Only I'm the benevolent dictator, not you, you rebel scum! :twisted:
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby winstonw » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:47 pm

Alien27 wrote:We are one of the best if not the best country's in the world to live in. A lot of that is down to the fact that our political system is really top notch. Not perfect but a hell of a dam sight better than most, even just comparing it to western democratic systems we have a really really good system that works rather well.


That's the typical naive view of those who have no idea what role economic security plays in maintaining social stability.
Take away our mining wealth and our county would fall as deep into social and moral decay as many parts of Russia.
If we are a good country to live in it is because of relative democracy and wealth.
A top notch political system means nothing if citizens are apathetic and uneducated....and that's the slippery slope Australia has been on for several decades now.
And it underscores, while even during a mining boom, we still run Current Account Deficits, and are dependent on the savings of foreigners to vendor finance our lifestyles, public hospitals, police force, etc.

I take it Alien, you're view is based on that of someone under 25, and you have no concept of how law enforcement has degenerated over the last 3 or 4 decades, and crime and disorder have increased.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby warthog1 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:59 pm

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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Xplora » Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:00 pm

blkmcs wrote:
Xplora wrote:...You need to reconsider how much influence the state has on your life, because the current nanny state is a recent phenomenon.

The nanny state has been complained about since at least 1965 so hardly a recent phenomenon.
It is a phrase used by those without a cogent argument.

Recent means "modern times" in this case. The nation as we understand it has only existed properly in the last 150 years. The state has historically been a lot less involved, and I think a lot of people don't really appreciate how stifling it is. We are capable of more than ever, but who actually gets to enjoy it? How many bogans have an iPad? Sociologically, there is an enormous underclass of people who aren't benefitting globally.

There is plenty of cogent argument to be had. I'm just mindful that this isn't a public space, the sandpit belongs to Chris and he's been clear that politics isn't something to be discussed ad nauseum. :mrgreen:

I accept there are lots of benefits to the current system, but the refusal to critique that system is simple retardation at a basic level. If anyone doesn't see a problem with the state refusing to allow them to retaliate in vengeance, and refusing to do anything about their complaints, then I just don't understand how they manage to eat their cereal in the morning.

This has real impacts on the cycling community.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Alien27 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:33 pm

I'm speechless...

I thought you would pull back a bit Winston but you went even further and while your guessing of my age and economic knowledge has been entertaining, I suspect that not much is going to be achieved continuing this line of discussion.

Lets leave it be, with a toast to Clive and Gina; Long may they live, prosper and keep us from famine, destitution and anarchy.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby jules21 » Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:36 pm

i just want to ride my bike
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby oldnewby » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:00 pm

what jules said.
"It is the unknown around the corner that turns my wheels"
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby elantra » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:06 pm

blkmcs wrote:
Xplora wrote:...You need to reconsider how much influence the state has on your life, because the current nanny state is a recent phenomenon.

The nanny state has been complained about since at least 1965 so hardly a recent phenomenon.
It is a phrase used by those without a cogent argument.

Got a reference, an evidence base or a concensus statement to support that deduction ?
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby il padrone » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:25 pm

winstonw wrote:A top notch political system means nothing if citizens are apathetic and uneducated....and that's the slippery slope Australia has been on for several decades now.
And it underscores, while even during a mining boom, we still run Current Account Deficits, and are dependent on the savings of foreigners to vendor finance our lifestyles, public hospitals, police force, etc.


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A misguided view of the Australian external sector. Australia has run current account deficits for many decades, probably since before Federation. It is immaterial to the economic performance overall (well actually it is often of benefit). As long as we can service the debts and investment income payments resulting (through an increased economy and greater export activity), then a CAD is beneficial in increasing our national living standards. The general level that is desirable is below 5% of GDP.

Currently running at about 3.5% of GDP so that is all looking pretty good :wink:

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Or are you going to tell all Australian businesses they are not allowed to source computer components from foreign importers? Not allowed to buy their clothing goods for resale from China? etc.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Marto » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:36 pm

Grumpy cat wishes you Happy Holidays!

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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:50 pm

winstonw wrote:
Alien27 wrote:Ohhh the 'STATE', must be a nasty piece of work that 'STATE'...


Save your sarcasm for the growing number of cyclists maimed or assaulted and unable to get the State to deal with it as they are contracted to do.

Be aware that your use of capitalisation in your post could imply a conspiracy theorist or big-brother statement or some other tangent. That is what took from your post and I suppose that winstow may have done the same. In which case all that winstow is doing is warning you off the tangent, perfectly legit and nothing personal.

These threads get hijacked and derailed too easily as it is. By Winstow, by me, by you and by many of the rest of us. And if we look at the recent posts in th is thread, mine included, then it has happened again.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:59 pm

blkmcs wrote:
Xplora wrote:...You need to reconsider how much influence the state has on your life, because the current nanny state is a recent phenomenon.

The nanny state has been complained about since at least 1965 so hardly a recent phenomenon.
It is a phrase used by those without a cogent argument.

Hear hear. I don't have an argument worth putting?. Or I am too busy to make it? Then I can appeal to the common angst against a nanny state, a term that can mean anything to anyone so everyone is goign to nod in sympathy even when what they are in sympathy with is not being presented.

Really, nanny state is becoming a motherhood statement and trotted out far to often. Intellectually lazy.

If one has an argument about something then put the argument. Leave my nanny out of it.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby il padrone » Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:12 pm

Xplora wrote:If anyone doesn't see a problem with the state refusing to allow them to retaliate in vengeance,

One step away from killing this thread :twisted:

Hello Mr Godwin


Robert Goddard had a different take on it.

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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby uncle arthur » Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:34 pm

winstonw wrote:
Alien27 wrote:We are one of the best if not the best country's in the world to live in. A lot of that is down to the fact that our political system is really top notch. Not perfect but a hell of a dam sight better than most, even just comparing it to western democratic systems we have a really really good system that works rather well.


That's the typical naive view of those who have no idea what role economic security plays in maintaining social stability.
Take away our mining wealth and our county would fall as deep into social and moral decay as many parts of Russia.
If we are a good country to live in it is because of relative democracy and wealth.
A top notch political system means nothing if citizens are apathetic and uneducated....and that's the slippery slope Australia has been on for several decades now.
And it underscores, while even during a mining boom, we still run Current Account Deficits, and are dependent on the savings of foreigners to vendor finance our lifestyles, public hospitals, police force, etc.

I take it Alien, you're view is based on that of someone under 25, and you have no concept of how law enforcement has degenerated over the last 3 or 4 decades, and crime and disorder have increased.


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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby blkmcs » Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:22 pm

elantra wrote:
blkmcs wrote:
Xplora wrote:...You need to reconsider how much influence the state has on your life, because the current nanny state is a recent phenomenon.

The nanny state has been complained about since at least 1965 so hardly a recent phenomenon.
It is a phrase used by those without a cogent argument.

Got a reference, an evidence base or a concensus statement to support that deduction ?

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