There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby high_tea » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:02 pm

winstonw wrote:
high_tea wrote:The problem is poor enforcement. The solution is better enforcement, or possibly better laws.


The problem is poor enforcement, because scaling that doesn't work either.
And whose hands is the power scaled into? elites who too often are disconnected from what is happening on the frontline.
The reason they want to be elites is to escape the Madding Crowd because they detest it - There's no Gandhi in Western political history.

I say too much power has been taken away from local community, and as many university qualified idle elites jam themselves into the process to claim a piece of the pie. The point is, your system isn't working either high_tea. Look at what has happened before when elites skim the kitty and don't deliver what they set out to.

And why isn't it working? because elites don't really give a toss about cyclists getting knocked off bikes. All they care about is the integrity of the 'system'.

Uh, no. The problem is that the community doesn't really give a toss. So excuse me if I don't see community-based justice improving the situation. Agreed, it's a hard problem. I just think the Good Ole Days aren't likely to offer up a solution. The things you describe were tried and found wanting. If they're tried again, I reckon the exact same thing will happen.

Also, Road Rules (and related penalties) are something that benefit from uniformity: uniform rules and uniform enforcement. This is one of the things that Magna Carta at least attempted to do (check out the bits about weights and measures and fish-dams (really!)) along with circumscribing the ruler's power.
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by BNA » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:10 pm

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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby greyhoundtom » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:10 pm

I know I have only been a resident in Australia for 55 years, and therefore probably don’t know what I'm talking about, BUT I believe this is the greatest country on earth, and the greatest country on earth to live in.

I thank [fill in name of chosen deity] everyday that my parents were smart enough to migrate here, and that I have had a chance to live my life here.

I can’t believe the winging and whining about the totally inconsequential bits of bull dust I have read on this thread.

Life is far too short to waste time focussing on the minor irritations and the imperfections of others, take a deep breath, open your eyes, and then open them again, and look at the big picture of what you have, and everything you can do, and are free to enjoy.

A far as this insane idea of “the people” taking it on themselves to meet out justice on those they consider of having done the “wrong thing”, or when they believe the police are not doing enough, I for one don’t trust “the people” ...... might as well install a branch of the Stasi because that is how it would finish up.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby high_tea » Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:19 pm

Xplora wrote:high_tea, you do realise that Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights simply replaced one Rule of Law with another? I would argue that the Bill of Rights is precisely why America is an absolute basketcase that can't regulate guns effectlvely or with any gusto despite THOUSANDS of deaths each year. I would argue that modern representative democracy is choking to death because the Parliament doesn't represent the interests of the community any more than the courts do. We can talk about how they are the best we have, but there is no place to defend the point about retaliation etc as if the situation we have is acceptable. Society doesn't work unless it is regulated in SOME sense, and that means discipline. Either the courts and cops deal with it, or they accept that people will handle it themselves (for good or bad).


I was talking about the English Bill of Rights. Sorry, I should have been clear about that. I can honestly say I have no idea what you mean by "replaced one Rule of Law with another". The idea of one, limiting the monarch's powers beyond "somehow procuring the consent of the governed" and two, codifying those limitations was a bit of a racy one at the time of Magna Carta. The idea that the Crown was supreme over Parliament and judiciary (and could act as it pleased) kicked on for a few centuries. The Bill of Rights pretty much put it to bed.

I agree that the situation we have is unacceptable. I definitely agree that not enforcing breaches of the Road Rules is a bad thing I even agree that retaliation is acceptable, for non-violent and lawful values of "retaliation". But non-violent and lawful really limits your ability to make the other party give a tinker's cuss. So I still think we need better enforcement, better legislation and better attitudes. The last is the most important and the hardest.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby DentedHead » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:36 pm

Xplora wrote:I find it interesting that a few people have come out against Dent's proposal, yet seem to believe that their beliefs related to impotent police reports aren't "hand in hand" related to it? :idea:


greyhoundtom wrote:...I for one don’t trust “the people” ...... might as well install a branch of the Stasi because that is how it would finish up.


high_tea wrote:...I even agree that retaliation is acceptable, for non-violent and lawful values of "retaliation". But non-violent and lawful really limits your ability to make the other party give a tinker's cuss. So I still think we need better enforcement, better legislation and better attitudes. The last is the most important and the hardest.


And therein lies the biggest flaw in my theory (yes, I admit my theory is flawed, but my points remain valid). As high_tea said, our current, legal avenues of retaliation are pointless, as the kinds of people deserving of such retaliation simply wouldn't give a fat rats freckle. Were we to have the power to retaliate in any meaningful way, those same people would likely abuse that power. It's a fairly sizable Catch 22.

That said, it's not hard to avoid this kind of retaliation. A few posters asked how I would feel if someone were to pour a thick shake over my ride because I'd lent it against the window (for example). OK, I ride a trike, so getting in the way of cars or pedestrians when its parked is a more valid example in my case, and simply put, I avoid provoking this kind of retaliation the same way the rest of us do. I try to consider others. Most people do this without having to think about it. We don't have to stop and think "I won't park across that driveway, even though there's no other place close by to park" simply because most people aren't arrogant asshats. Sadly, a few people are.


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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby boss » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:33 pm

greyhoundtom wrote: this is the greatest country on earth, and the greatest country on earth to live in.


Word.

And not in a patriotic way. We just have it really good. But are fast becoming a nation of whingers. It's kind of pathetic really.

People are dying in any number of countries, being exploited, etc etc etc. Perspective, people.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby DavidS » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:58 pm

winstonw wrote:I think a lot of Australia's problems are due to progressive attitudes. There's been a blatant blurring of what is best re upbringing, ethics, law enforcement, etc, etc. It's a mistake to hog tie a whole nation to experimenting with this stuff. Why not let progressives do their experiments in individual LGAs. And leave room for those who don't buy into their ideals the freedom to hold to alternative values.


Oh the irony.

Many people talk about the good old days when things like one car just parked in the middle of 2 parking spots just wouldn't happen. There was more respect for other members of society. More community. Now, some of this stuff about the good old days is rose coloured hindsight, but I do think there was more consideration for others 20 or 30 years ago.

So the question becomes, what happened?

The political pendulum has shifted over the last 30 years and more. It has shifted substantially away from progressive ideas and more towards right wing ideologies such as free market fundamentalism. Along with this, and allied to this shift, has been a championing of individualism over community (eg, Thatcher's famous comment that there is no such thing as society, only individuals and families). This championing of individualism has led to more selfish attitudes. Back in the good old days you wouldn't park over 2 parking spots because you knew it would deprive someone else of a parking spot and that was unreasonable, now, with a retreat of progressive ideas, people just act selfishly and don't give a stuff if it inconveniences others.

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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby blkmcs » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:10 am

A fine example of selfish parking at the Morley Galleria today.
A friend parked the blue car and came back to find the silver car parked in a motorcycle bay.
My friend had to get in the passenger side then spend a long time slowly maneuvering out of the parking space making sure that she did not scratch the silver car.
Next time he parks like that he might not find the other driver so accommodating.

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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Percrime » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:10 am

Ha. WHen I was a kid we lived opposite a reception centre. We actually we lived opposite a paddock. Which eventually became a reception centre. Nice people. Well aware of the importance with playing nice with the neighbours.

One night dad came home to find a car parked. Yes..across the driveway.. Hmmmm this was 30 years ago. See inconsiderate pricks have always been here.

We jacked it up on a pair of trolley jacks. Pushed it down the road. Out into the middle of the main road. Set it down . Rang the cops and reported the abandoned locked car in the middle of the main road. They came Directed traffic. Sent tow truck.

It only happened once
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Ross » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:26 am

Xplora wrote:Just had a quick look at the video. Offender is lucky he wasn't after me... I would have accelerated towards him when he left the car after all the chasing. I think with such video evidence it was clear that the driver could have been attempting to take my life, I mean I don't recall having anyone else chase me on the road like that?


I've been following this incident on another forum and allegedly there may of been previous incidents between these two drivers.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby il padrone » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:25 am

winstonw wrote:Several generations now think big government should fix problems, rather than individuals, families, communities. They think this because they are 1. apathetic, disconnected, and into self; 2. feel disempowered by over-regulation and arrogant govt (such as does not adequately protect the rights of cyclists).

Life's pretty good in Somalia, so they say. No big government there....... no government at all :wink:

winstonw wrote:Progressive thought has attacked traditional values and replaced them with......nothing.....or at least, do whatever feels good. That's why younger generations are less considerate, including of the police. Progressivism is now an industry in its own right, easily manipulated by minority groups. Progressive parents don't teach kids restraint and discipline, they feed them cr#p food which compounds behavioral issues.

Or you could try Syria. They don't take no stick from progressives there :idea:
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Alien27 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:12 am

Small government... and lots if bike infrastructure and police everywhere looking out for cyclists interests and a legal system that chases down every offence without having to prioritise...
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby boss » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:07 am

Alien27 wrote:Small government... and lots if bike infrastructure and police everywhere looking out for cyclists interests and a legal system that chases down every offence without having to prioritise...


Sounds like big government to me :roll:
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby winstonw » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:04 pm

il padrone wrote:Life's pretty good in Somalia, so they say. No big government there....... no government at all :wink:


Progressive is another name for elites from one side of the political fence policing people's thoughts.....you know, like China has done in Tibet.
So off you go. Drop into a few monasteries and write back about all the monks who were abused by other monks, versus those abused by Chinese 'progressives'.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby skull » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:06 pm

has now been arrested and charged.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby winstonw » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:07 pm

Alien27 wrote:Small government... and lots if bike infrastructure and police everywhere looking out for cyclists interests and a legal system that chases down every offence without having to prioritise...


yeah, let's stick with big govt that cbf'd about cyclists, but still wants ever more tax revenue to tell us how they care more about us than we do ourselves! :roll:
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby il padrone » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:34 pm

skull wrote:has now been arrested and charged.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9egu3ds5KZQ

21 yo, tatts all over, fancy black SUV, garaged at Perth million dollar mansion, statements of similar repeated offences. Smacks of bikie gang member and/or ice-fuelled nutso.

Just hope the courts are not going to let this crazy out on bail!!
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby winstonw » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:59 pm

il padrone wrote:21 yo, tatts all over, fancy black SUV, garaged at Perth million dollar mansion, statements of similar repeated offences. Smacks of bikie gang member and/or ice-fuelled nutso.


Try Carbrook in Brisbane. I know the address, and there's nothing to affirm it is a bikie gang member.
just as easily a real estate agent.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Alien27 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:00 pm

winstonw wrote:yeah, let's stick with big govt that cbf'd about cyclists, but still wants ever more tax revenue to tell us how they care more about us than we do ourselves! :roll:


I didn't say i wanted big government, I'm just pointing out the conflict in your argument.

Saying your against big government is as big a cop out, as saying you hate the nanny state. It's just vague hogwash.

If there is a specific part of government you want to do away with, then make the case however saying you hate big government while at the same time wanting more intervention in a part of life that suits you, is just hypocritical.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby il padrone » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:22 pm

winstonw wrote:
il padrone wrote:21 yo, tatts all over, fancy black SUV, garaged at Perth million dollar mansion, statements of similar repeated offences. Smacks of bikie gang member and/or ice-fuelled nutso.


Try Carbrook in Brisbane.

Read-the-story. Car was garaged in Perth - what they said* :idea:

The now infamous black Nissan ute was garaged today at a sprawling Perth property while 21-year-old Edward Sullivan from Carbrook in Brisbane's south was being questioned by police.


* Don't ask me how this happened. Maybe Perth is a suburb of Brisbane ???

winstonw wrote:I know the address, and there's nothing to affirm it is a bikie gang member.
just as easily a real estate agent.

You must know some interesting real estate agents :o (21 yo, tatts-emblazoned, extreme aggression, behaving like they're on ice).

He lives in Carbrook..... how ironic :roll:
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby birdbrain » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:37 pm

Maybe the 000 operator should be charged with uselessness also :wink:
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby winstonw » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:38 pm

Alien27 wrote:If there is a specific part of government you want to do away with, then make the case however saying you hate big government while at the same time wanting more intervention in a part of life that suits you, is just hypocritical.


What is it you don't get about the govt not living up to its contractual duties?
Have the police ever said to you "listen mate, we aren't going to bother chasing this bloke who drove in a dangerous manner and caused you to crash and require 5 days off work and broke your bike, despite your video, because you don't pay us enough taxes"....
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Alien27 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:05 pm

The govt? Contractural duties? Come on Julia get on your bike with Swanie and chase down that mugger, otherwise Winston is going to sue you! Look it says here clause 237c of (drum roll) 'THEEE Connntraaaact' the government must no matter what chase down and prosecute every suspected crime in the country... and don't get to big while your at it...and don't drop the ball on that rape case either and, what's that you say Julia, wrong level of government, talk to Barry. Bugger, ok people pack up here, meet you all on Macquarie Street tomorrow. We are going to get that O'Farrell and his social contract breaking, big Government, viva the revolution!
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:49 pm

OK Winstonw, I THINK I understand the problems besetting us now. I t took a while but let's see if I have it right.

winstonw wrote:There's too much of this stuff these days. I'm always amused by the totally useless responses from 000 operators.

000 operators should be issued with assault rifles and the keys to an armoured assult vehicle. Got it.

winstonw wrote:
Alien27 wrote:Ohhh the 'STATE', must be a nasty piece of work that 'STATE'...


Save your sarcasm for the growing number of cyclists maimed or assaulted and unable to get the State to deal with it as they are contracted to do.

I always suspected that Alien had a disdain for maimed cyclists. Geeze Alien, get it together mate!

winstonw wrote: (to ALien, again)
That's the typical naive view of those who have no idea what role economic security plays in maintaining social stability.
...
I take it Alien, you're view is based on that of someone under 25, and you have no concept of how law enforcement has degenerated over the last 3 or 4 decades, and crime and disorder have increased.

Yeah Alien, while you are getting it together you might need to also do an economics degree.
winstonw wrote:(to Il PAdrone)
pfft....the same superficial, ill informed justification that is dragged out every time someone attacks the CAD.
You want to read deeper on the matter if you want better cycling infrastructure, upholding of the law, free health care, etc, etc.
Start with an understanding of how the Australian median house price blew out to many multiples of other OECD nations....and pushed the primary account so high it offset healthy (mainly mining) trade surpluses for years. ...

I was wondering where the price of my house factored into road safety. Good to be enlightened at last. (BTW Alien, you are holding your age very well.)
winstonw wrote:I take it your view is a growing 'culture' of road rage has nothing to do with underservicing by law enforcers. You'll have to flesh that idea out for me.

Is THAT what you meant Il Padrone. I hadn't realised the level of your ignorance. I feel so dumb that I didn't spot that myself.

This one does stump me though. These "progressives" are presumably those university educated elitist chattering class. But as was pointed out we sadly need to eduucate ourselves on economic theory, which I recall I got in large dose at university. Oh well, that was a waste of time then.

Seriously though winstonw, you might wanna tone it down a little and allow for a few alternate opinions.

And whatever you do, don't mention the war.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby il padrone » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:02 pm

Basil Fawlty: Is there something wrong?
German Guest: Will you stop talking about the war?
Basil Fawlty: Me? You started it.
German Guest: We did not!
Basil Fawlty: Yes, you did. You invaded Poland.
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Re: There's road rage, and then there's ROAD RAGE.

Postby Alien27 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:48 pm

jimboss wrote:
Alien27 wrote:Small government... and lots if bike infrastructure and police everywhere looking out for cyclists interests and a legal system that chases down every offence without having to prioritise...


Sounds like big government to me :roll:


Exactly, spot on :D
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