Surly Troll Rohloff build

Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:31 pm

RonK wrote:
Rohloff-specific frames are inevitably more expensive - the market is much smaller. But for the extra money you get custom dropouts, eccentric bb's and dedicated cable routing.

True enough, but is it money well spent. You can only answer for yourself and your needs as can anyone.
I think Surly is paving the way for money well spent in the ways I think suit me. I think your bike is grand and I've thought long and hard as to if its benefits were what I wanted. I also did this with a number of other wonderful frames (not all of them Rohloff specific). I'm still somewhat undecided.

What I want, for what I want to pay in truth isnt out there so its a matter of finding the best compromise for my perceived bang for buck vs weight and features/versatility.
Quite frankly, if my Moulton was just slightly better at load baring (specifically water) and with a tad better off road ability whilst using the fenders (it would be adequate with 20x2.1 tyres) I'd stick with that.

For me it gets worse, the newer Moulton TSR, my bikes evolution, has less off road ability due to its smaller tyre clearances much to my horror. I once had thoughts of buying the Avon Valley Cyclery Rohloff TSR but it turns out the max tyre limit is 20x1.6 my research suggests. I dont care if the standard of finish is much better than its aged predecessor, my APB, I'd rather refurbish my frame and retain its ability to choose fatter tyres. Its a shame as parting with the dosh for the new bike would be less of a headache than a frame restoration of the old one and probably the new would work out cheaper, much more convenient and be a better bang for buck. :|
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby RonK » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:00 pm

Well, as a former Surly owner, I was underwhelmed by the poor finish and lifeless ride quality.

Since you like folders the Airnimal Black Rhino should appeal to you - it certainly interested me...
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:16 pm

RonK wrote:Well, as a former Surly owner, I was underwhelmed by the poor finish and lifeless ride quality.

Since you like folders the Airnimal Black Rhino should appeal to you - it certainly interested me...

Part of the reason I'm considering moving away from the Moulton is issues buying proprietary parts. :twisted:
You'd think getting a suspension spring would be a matter of a quick phone call. No too hard. :roll: I waited to leave on my tour for one, holding me up for weeks, only for the wrong spring to arrive despite my many calls and emails.
I want to spend more time riding and less time maintaining me thinks and I agree that the Airnimal looks a great beast :D but I think I want to try getting what comfort I can from fat tyres and get away from suspension and its moving parts.
As its probable my wanting some frame customisation, I think a new paintjob will be necessary anyway and from your comments I doubt it will be hard to improve on the factory finish.
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby RonK » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:27 pm

rifraf wrote:I think a new paintjob will be necessary anyway and from your comments I doubt it will be hard to improve on the factory finish.

Too right - my Surly was rusting from lack of paint within months. And the paint is soft and scratches easily. It comes as no surprise that Surly say the warranty does not cover paint. But it was the dead ride quality that provided the incentive to pass it on.
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:46 pm

RonK wrote: But it was the dead ride quality that provided the incentive to pass it on.


I been down the track of chasing that before and at the time of my purchase of my mountainbike (now gone) I wouldnt settle for anything less than Reynolds 531 Magnum tubing. I'm now of the personal opinion that its a quality "more" relevant "to me" in a higher pressure tyred and lighter weight bike than the ones I'm considering.
I parted with a 4130 heavy Haro Extreme Competition mountainbike to buy the 531 Peugeot and I got to say whilst both were XT equiped and the Haro a ton heavier, the Peugeot was not the more inspiring to ride. Ride it I did as I didnt have the money to roll the dice again and I toured on that bike and rode it on trails between NZ, England and Ireland inspite of its 531 and not because of it. My friend who went on and on about ride quality doesnt get asked his opinion on anything anymore and as time goes on I find I'm mostly overall happy with the decisions I make although to make them, I take 10 times as long as anyone else I know which can be a burden. The Peugeot was the lightest bike in its class back in the day according to the literature I was swamped with by my friend. I somewhat hated that bloody bike and used to eye with envy another friend who I unloaded the Haro on who still has it to this day and wont ride anything else.

Dont get me wrong, I enjoy reading your opinions and have indeed made some of my purchasing decisons based almost entirely on what you've suggested and will again ask what you think as I value your opinions and the logic they represent.
Just not when it comes to bike frames. I want to make my next bike more about the ride and not the brand or weight. I'm going to let how I feel about the bike determine what I ride.
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:15 pm

I honestly couldn't tell you what the attraction to the Haro was other than pure s*#@eating grin inducing fun factor.
It was heavy and I'm sure the frame would have felt as dead to you (as it did to my friend) but I still think of that bike with fondness. It looked just like:
Image
pic curtisy of: http://www.retrobike.co.uk/botm/botm-no ... mpetition/

I'll also add that my friend who so loved the Reynolds and Tange Prestige now hardly ever rides his bikes due to
some obsessive compulsion to have them looking pretty and dust free inside his house. After every ride he spends at least one hour cleaning them which is of course counterproductive to wanting to go for a half hour spin.
I hate wet weather but funnily enough it was a joy to ride the Haro in what ever the elements were doing. I think its first cleaning was a hose off the day before I sold it.
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby RonK » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:31 pm

rifraf wrote:I think your bike is grand and I've thought long and hard as to if its benefits were what I wanted. I also did this with a number of other wonderful frames (not all of them Rohloff specific). I'm still somewhat undecided.


Well, I was surprised that you considered a VN. The Thorns are not much more expensive than the Surly, and if you think the Nomad is too heavy there are lighter models such as the Raven Tour.
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:40 pm

RonK wrote:
rifraf wrote:I think your bike is grand and I've thought long and hard as to if its benefits were what I wanted. I also did this with a number of other wonderful frames (not all of them Rohloff specific). I'm still somewhat undecided.


Well, I was surprised that you considered a VN. The Thorns are not much more expensive than the Surly, and if you think the Nomad is too heavy there are lighter models such as the Raven Tour.


The price while always relevant was of slightly less concern than the grin factor I'm searching for.
I presented the possibility here:
rifraf wrote:Looks like planet-x-bikes have some discounted stock:
http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/FRV ... om_bracket
554.99 UK pounds delivered if I'm not mistaken. :o
Food for thought?

At the time, I believe all their sizes were the same instead of just their XL being discounted to $813.90
It was better priced than the Thorn Nomad frame.

I suspect its the arrogance or irreverence in the build of the Surly reminiscent of the Haro that I'm responding to in my like.
The "go our own way" dispite the pedigree of established methods of mainstream and exotica brands.
Theres something to be said for cheap n cheerful as long as the emphasis is on the cheeful (IMHO)

Again, you've seen me waffling about my latest purchases of Rohloff, tent, bivvy bag, sleeping bag etc.
Its not about trying to save a paltry couple of hundred dollars on a frame. I genuinely like the quirkyness of of the Surly.
Could I change direction? Certainly I could. If the decision was 100% made my order would be in.
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby RonK » Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:35 pm

Ah, I get it now. But I'd never have thought you'd fall for the Surly "we're different" and "bikes with attitude" marketing spin :roll: :) :) :)
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:24 pm

RonK wrote:Ah, I get it now.

I'm not sure that you do. Look again at the Haro. The product "is" the marketing spin and not anything that may
be on their or anyone elses website. The spiel is before your eyes and has to be expressed by yourself.
Ah its alright, I realise its too esoteric for me to adequately articulate. :(

RonK wrote: I'd never have thought you'd fall for the Surly "we're different" and "bikes with attitude" marketing spin :roll: :) :) :)

I doubt that the tattoo'd goateed spin doctors at Surly could sell me water if I was dying of thirst Ron, but we could share a beer or three. :wink:
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby alexf » Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:00 pm

why did i get a troll? I Iiked the orange colour. except i missed out on it and will have to settle for black instead. i liked the idea of a rohloff equipped bike with disc brakes. Also, i liked the tyre clearance plus all the other options with the track drop outs. i read reviews which said the troll handled very well off road, andd wee wantedd bikess that could handle the worst conditions.

so, the next stage is to get the front dynamo wheel, for $325 we can get a son28 disc 32 spoke laced to an andra rim. Do people think this is strong enough? The dishing seems to be minor since you can use the same length spokes.
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:49 pm

alexf wrote:why did i get a troll? I Iiked the orange colour. except i missed out on it and will have to settle for black instead. i liked the idea of a rohloff equipped bike with disc brakes. Also, i liked the tyre clearance plus all the other options with the track drop outs. i read reviews which said the troll handled very well off road, andd wee wantedd bikess that could handle the worst conditions.

so, the next stage is to get the front dynamo wheel, for $325 we can get a son28 disc 32 spoke laced to an andra rim. Do people think this is strong enough? The dishing seems to be minor since you can use the same length spokes.


Hi AlexF
Surly were sure onto a winner with that orange colour. I saw it for the first time here on the forum when Wingnut posted pics of his Troll.
Man that orange sets off the black bits on the bike really well. I understand that attraction completely. I too like the clearances to allow for big rubber.
I think the Troll can handle up to 2.70 tyres which is a pretty big footprint IMHO. Those dropouts sure allow for a lot of options should you care to throw a stick at them. The reviews have indeed seemed largely positive. When can we expect some pics? As for the son28, what sort of weight are you going to have up front?
I'd be inclined to go the 36H as I have an idea that the front wheel will be asymmetrical due to the disk on one side so thus not as strong as the rim brake version.
Same length spokes on the disk version? Tell me more. Which crankset will you be looking at to achieve your 54mm(?) chainline? :D
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:43 pm

RonK wrote:Well, as a former Surly owner, I was underwhelmed by the poor finish

At least one Nomad rider had a similar issue
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/reviews/ ... ted=0&v=10
Sydney Winer
"The downside is a second rate powder coated paint job - definitely not up to task for the price of the bike. It's scratch prone, flakes off stainless parts like the dropouts and in a couple of places like around some cable guides the powder coat had clumped, the fused outer surface has broken leaving an 'ulcer' - a hollow bubble once the unfused powder has emptied. A bit of dust was baked onto the top tube too. Indide frame and fork especially seems insuficiently rust treated to me but then I'm comparing the bike to my old Miyata 1000, possibly the only zinc treated touring frame ever."
Kyle Archer
"Yes, something I should have added - the paint job is entirely rubbish, I even had mine resprayed white while I worked there, and now it is also flaking off."

I'm not attacking Thorns, just suggesting that there are probably many different variables when it comes to a paint job including whose doing the painting on the day. Hopefully as there is more and more competition bike brands of all budgets will improve quality control procedures.
I read other posts on forums questioning some of Surly's finish so am forewarned.
Not a concern for you Ron being paint free, but I'm sure there will be something VN works at improving with regards to quality control.
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby alexf » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:58 pm

son's website calculator gives the same spoke length for the disc versions http://www.nabendynamo.de/service/speic ... er_en.html

i could get the 36 spoke version but it would cost 40 more. we might have to skimp and get the shimano versions instead.

The 32 spoke ones from bike components are laced to an andra 30 rim, which is why i thought it would be strong enough.
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:29 pm

alexf wrote:son's website calculator gives the same spoke length for the disc versions http://www.nabendynamo.de/service/speic ... er_en.html

i could get the 36 spoke version but it would cost 40 more. we might have to skimp and get the shimano versions instead.

The 32 spoke ones from bike components are laced to an andra 30 rim, which is why i thought it would be strong enough.

40 more?
Where from? They appear to be the same price in Euros from:
http://www.starbike.com/p/SON-28-center ... ub-4729-en
Bike24 only has the 32H version at the same price.
This equates to 229 Euro minus the 19% VAT 41.27 Euro plus 29.50 Euro for postage.
A total of 217.23 € which at todays rate is $276.767 AUD

I'm sure there is nothing wrong with the Shimano but if the Son is a bit pricey consider the SP brand available on Ebay for around $130.
Some of the posters here have them. Shutter Precision is the brand and from memory they have double the warranty of the Shimano - 2years as
opposed to the Son28's 5 year warranty.

Might you be referring to http://www.bike-components.de/shop/language/en ? I looked at their complete wheel page but the component list was in German
and I struggled to understand.
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby alexf » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:09 am

https://www.bike-components.de/products ... frad-.html is the one iI was looking at, 360 including the rim, spokes,. building and delivery.
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:54 pm

alexf wrote:https://www.bike-components.de/products/info/p30535_Son-28-Disc-Center-Lock---Andra-30---Sapim-Race-Laufrad-.html is the one iI was looking at, 360 including the rim, spokes,. building and delivery.

Hi AlexF, thanks for the link. I'll get one of the translating services onto it a bit later. :D
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby alexf » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:29 pm

Life is depressing. After waiting a month for my Troll to come, I have had to cancel my order since Surly won't be making anymore of these till March. We are now ordering Thorn Ravens instead... :|
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:18 pm

Hi alexf
What about Jensonusa.com?
Whoops just spotted that they only have XL in stock.
Hmmmmmm
Ahh what about:
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/coolanga ... 1012927354
Not sure how far you are from Coolangatta.
PlanetX had some good looking specials on Pioneer and other Ti frames from Van Nicholas
like the Zion 26er Rohloff frame
http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/FRV ... om_bracket
Pioneer
http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/FRV ... om_bracket
Did you try http://www.bikeman.com/BK0092F.html to check stock as I remember someone here giving them a thumbs up for service.
If you'd consider paying the local price of $749. you may be able to pick up a Troll here in Aus.
Cheers
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby alexf » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:03 am

Thanks Aidan. For some reason I didn't find the Bikeman link when I went through the depressing amount of sites on googlewhich had the troll 18" backordered. The shipping on bikeman is $235 though, which brings the price up to $700. For $300 more I think the raven frame shipped is better value, especially since I can minimise costs by getting Thorn to do some of the fitting for me so I buy the right parts from stage 1.

It's too late now to think of a titanium frame :p

The second hand thorn nomad is a great price. If only it were more local + fit issues of course. I specced our complete bikes at $4k each. Btw, starbike now ship rohloff to Australia again, which is where we will buy our second hub from.
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:49 am

alexf wrote:Thanks Aidan. For some reason I didn't find the Bikeman link when I went through the depressing amount of sites on googlewhich had the troll 18" backordered. The shipping on bikeman is $235 though, which brings the price up to $700. For $300 more I think the raven frame shipped is better value, especially since I can minimise costs by getting Thorn to do some of the fitting for me so I buy the right parts from stage 1.

It's too late now to think of a titanium frame :p

The second hand thorn nomad is a great price. If only it were more local + fit issues of course. I specced our complete bikes at $4k each. Btw, starbike now ship rohloff to Australia again, which is where we will buy our second hub from.


Hi Alex,
sorry - I didnt realise you wernt aware that starbike has again started selling Rohloff.
That is where I recently got mine from.
My disk for it arrived from wiggle this morning with a Surly tugnut for aligning a wheel in their horizontal dropouts.
Also some cleats for my shoes that I needed and a new bottle cage as I damaged on my trip over here (WA) and finally remembered to get a replacement.
If I was still in NSW I'd be going for a squiz at that Nomad for sure.
If those Van Nicholas frame specials included a 29er Pioneer or Zion I think I would have been hooked.
I spotted a (to me) very tasty Surly Ogre in this thread that had me lusting:
http://forums.mtbr.com/bikepacking-bike ... 36924.html
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby alexf » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:38 pm

When I ordered the rohloff from Bike24 in December, Starbike were not shipping to Australia. But now they are!?

I also had a look at the maximum chainring ratios, is it me or has rohloff dropped the specs so you can use smaller front chainrings now?
http://www.rohloff.de/en/products/speed ... index.html
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby il padrone » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:32 pm

Herr Rohloff changed the specs for minimum gearing late last year. Some take the view that they were always very much on the conservative side. If you look at one of St John Street Cycles guides to 'Living With a Rohloff' there is a photo in there of Andy Blance, store co-owner and bike designer riding a Nomad in the Andes with very low gearing - I'm guessing about 36-21.
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby rifraf » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:11 am

Hi Alex,
you've not been keeping up with our busy reading schedule. :wink: I posted this thread toward the end of Dec: viewtopic.php?f=77&t=59772 about the Rohloff ratio revision. I wouldnt have considered it viable for 700c (29er) without it coming down. :D

Also in the beginning of Dec (4th) I posted: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37092&start=225 that I'd received my Rohloff from Starbike successfully. :D I posted in the Thorn Nomad build thread because thats where it was first noticed by Polishbiker that they had ceased shipping Rohloff to Australia. :shock:
I tried 18th November and my order went through. I was wondering right up till the last minute and its arrival what would be the case. :!:
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Re: Surly Troll Rohloff build

Postby Aushiker » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:24 pm

A heads-up. If someone is looking for a Rohloff hub a second hand one has come up on eBay ..

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