Living with a velomobile

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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Riggsbie » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:18 pm

So did you manage to get out for another ride ?


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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Aushiker » Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:41 pm

mozart wrote:yes I did meant GST + 5% Customs duty


There is no duty payable. You can claim a refund from Customs unless of course you wish to make a donation to their Christmas fund.

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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby chuckchunder » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:25 am

Aushiker wrote:
mozart wrote:yes I did meant GST + 5% Customs duty


There is no duty payable. You can claim a refund from Customs unless of course you wish to make a donation to their Christmas fund.

Andrew


Um.... not sure about that - my understanding is that bicycles and other cycles are dealt with in the Australian Tariff at 8712.00.00 - with a 5% rate of Duty applicable. A velomobile would appear to be correctly assessed under this classification. Bicycles are subject to the duty, but are also subject to Tariff Concession Order TC 0104891, which reduces the Duty to 0%. A velomobile is not a bicycle, there is no Tariff Concession for velomobiles (that I can find), therefore 5% duty is payable. Can't see any other way round it, but happy to be corrected : )

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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Aushiker » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:37 am

chuckchunder wrote:
Aushiker wrote:
mozart wrote:yes I did meant GST + 5% Customs duty


There is no duty payable. You can claim a refund from Customs unless of course you wish to make a donation to their Christmas fund.

Andrew


Um.... not sure about that - my understanding is that bicycles and other cycles are dealt with in the Australian Tariff at 8712.00.00 - with a 5% rate of Duty applicable. A velomobile would appear to be correctly assessed under this classification. Bicycles are subject to the duty, but are also subject to Tariff Concession Order TC 0104891, which reduces the Duty to 0%. A velomobile is not a bicycle, there is no Tariff Concession for velomobiles (that I can find), therefore 5% duty is payable. Can't see any other way round it, but happy to be corrected : )


If a Velomobile is not a bicycle then I would suggest that there are bigger issues to worry about than the 5% duty.

That notwithstanding I am very interested in seeing the legislation or more likely the Federal regulations which makes a three wheel human powered vehicle something other than a bicycle. Can you point to same, particularly the Federal regulations which define the tariffs and hence define a bicycle for duty purposes. I am only familiar with the Road Traffic Codes such as the Western Australian Road Traffic Code which defines a bicycle as:

bicycle means a vehicle with 2 or more wheels that is built to be propelled by human power through a belt, chain or gears (whether or not it has an auxiliary motor) and —
(a) includes a pedicab, penny-farthing and tricycle; but
(b) does not include a wheelchair, wheeled recreational device, wheeled toy or any vehicle with an auxiliary motor capable of generating a power output over 200 watts (whether or not the motor is operating);


Struggling to see given this definition how a velomobile is not a bicycle but interested in your take on it.

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Andrew
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Aushiker » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:02 am

I think I have answered my own question in that I have found the Vehicle Standard (Australian Design Rule - Definitions and Vehicle Categories) 2005 which under 4.2.1 defines a pedal cycle as

A vehicle designed to be propelled through a mechanism solely by human power.


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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby chuckchunder » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:38 am

Aushiker wrote:
Struggling to see given this definition how a velomobile is not a bicycle but interested in your take on it.

Regards
Andrew


hhmmm....... the Road Traffic Code definition is to allow ease of regulating particular types of vehicles and defining them together makes sense (well to me anyway). That way when you use the word "bicycle" in the Code, it means tricycles etc as well. Narcotics in the Customs Regs for example includes cannabinoids, which are clearly not narcotics, but if you see the word "narcotics" in the Regs cannabinoids are generally included. You'll note in the heading at 8712.00.00 that the Tariff refers to Bicycles and other cycles including.....tricycles. The tariff is about classifying things for assessment of tax, but unlike the two example above it is not necessary to lump things together for ease of regulation in this context - its not saying everything in this classification is a bicycle (like the Road Traffic Code), its saying bicycles and similar/like things are included in this classification and taxed at this rate. Concessions are then made for specific goods (scroll down the doc I linked to, to the Tariff Concession Order's(TCO) for that classification ie 8712.00.00 - four front wheels???). My simplistic understanding is that Tariffs are used to protect local industry, and that TCO's are usually applied for by commercial importers for goods for which there is no local industry to protect (whether there is a local bicycle manufacturing industry to protect may be worth another thread!!). My guess is no-one has ever commercially imported velo's, hence no TCO.

Hope that makes some sense?
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Aushiker » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:23 am

chuckchunder wrote:
Aushiker wrote:
Struggling to see given this definition how a velomobile is not a bicycle but interested in your take on it.

Regards
Andrew


hhmmm....... the Road Traffic Code definition is to allow ease of regulating particular types of vehicles and defining them together makes sense (well to me anyway). That way when you use the word "bicycle" in the Code, it means tricycles etc as well. Narcotics in the Customs Regs for example includes cannabinoids, which are clearly not narcotics, but if you see the word "narcotics" in the Regs cannabinoids are generally included. You'll note in the heading at 8712.00.00 that the Tariff refers to Bicycles and other cycles including.....tricycles. The tariff is about classifying things for assessment of tax, but unlike the two example above it is not necessary to lump things together for ease of regulation in this context - its not saying everything in this classification is a bicycle (like the Road Traffic Code), its saying bicycles and similar/like things are included in this classification and taxed at this rate. Concessions are then made for specific goods (scroll down the doc I linked to, to the Tariff Concession Order's(TCO) for that classification ie 8712.00.00 - four front wheels???). My simplistic understanding is that Tariffs are used to protect local industry, and that TCO's are usually applied for by commercial importers for goods for which there is no local industry to protect (whether there is a local bicycle manufacturing industry to protect may be worth another thread!!). My guess is no-one has ever commercially imported velo's, hence no TCO.

Hope that makes some sense?


Well I will be applying for a concession as per the very documents you referred to and as per the Department of Transport vehicle importation requirements (which Customs refer to BTW) and the ADR. If others which to simply pay the 5% that is there choice of course

I have seen nothing which suggests that a velomobile is not a pedal cycle (ADR, Department of Infrastructure) or a bicycle or cycle as per the tariffs (Customs) and I suspect that Customs would have a problem trying to argue otherwise before the AAT.

Cheers
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Rhubarb » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:38 am

When I imported mine in July I recall the conversation with the importer who said he would have to check what duty was payable at which point I just told him nil as it was legally a complete bicycle and thus eligible for the concession. He asked me to forward the link referred to above which I did to speed things up.

I paid 10% GST plus some agent fees but no 5% import duty.
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Aushiker » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:56 am

chuckchunder wrote:
Aushiker wrote:
mozart wrote:yes I did meant GST + 5% Customs duty


There is no duty payable. You can claim a refund from Customs unless of course you wish to make a donation to their Christmas fund.

Andrew


Um.... not sure about that - my understanding is that bicycles and other cycles are dealt with in the Australian Tariff at 8712.00.00 - with a 5% rate of Duty applicable. A velomobile would appear to be correctly assessed under this classification. Bicycles are subject to the duty, but are also subject to Tariff Concession Order TC 0104891, which reduces the Duty to 0%. A velomobile is not a bicycle, there is no Tariff Concession for velomobiles (that I can find), therefore 5% duty is payable. Can't see any other way round it, but happy to be corrected : )


Thinking about this a bit more, but if a velomobile is not a bicycle or cycle as you suggest then the 5% duty you refer to cannot also be applied as it applies to bicycles and cycles (Customs cannot arbitrarily assign tariffs, well legally at least) just as the concession cannot be applied for the same reason as you argued.

So unless a velomobile is either a pedal cycle or another vehicle type as defined under the importation of vehicle rules (DoI) then it is either an illegal import (clearly not) or it is subject to a duty under a different tariff which may be more than 5% or of course not all. Also if it is not a vehicle as per the ADR then there are questions as I stated early about their use on the roads.

So for me I will happily import my pedal cycle, aka a velomobile.

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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby DentedHead » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:56 am

Tariff Concession Order's(TCO) for that classification ie 8712.00.00 - four front wheels???)


I saw this too, and noticed it was "four front wheels with a diameter not exceeding 160mm". http://www.streetsurfer.com.au/

I thought they were made here though. Do these tariffs apply to export as well?


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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:28 pm

This is what I quoted to the import agent Khuene & Nagel.
So far as I know none of us with the RE Mangos paid any duty.

I certainly didn't anyway.

Duty=$0.00
GST $1082
Customs clearance $110
Electronic entry charges $55.20
=$1258.31

The Mango is a bicycle complete and should only attract GST.

This is the section I quoted as I recall.

Under Tariff Concession 0104891 (Tariff Code: 8712.00.00), duty
is not charged for complete bicycles.

Have a look here.

http://www.bicycles.net.au/2010/08/ulti ... as-orders/

John
Last edited by John Lewis on Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby chuckchunder » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:31 pm

OK I'm confused.

I didn't think that I argued that a velo is not a cycle, but that it is not a bicycle. Bicycles have two wheels, velos like the Mango have three, and are enclosed, it is therefore a velomobile. Or a tricycle at least. My argument is that the velo is classified under 8712.00.00 because it is a "Bicycle or other cycle....". I further argue as it is not a bicycle, it would not be covered under the TCO referring to Bicycles because it has three wheels and is enclosed and is therefore a velomobile. If the TCO for Bicycles applied to anything under that Heading, then there would have been no need for the later importers of cycles with four front wheels, or 7 seats, to bother applying for a TCO.

Customs advises that an importer is required to classify imported goods correctly under a self-assessment regime. That means that an incorrect classification won't be detected unless the specific Import Entry is audited. That is why John and Rigsbie did not pay Duty, but mozart did. My guess is that the Broker if questioned would say "the importer told me it was a bicycle"...........

Regardless, to be certain you would need to get a Tariff Advice from Customs before importation.

cheers
glen
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Bartek » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:04 pm

hopefully I wont pay any GST!

John my Mango should arrive mid January, so how much notice do I need to give Khuene & Nagel is it just a case of letting them know when the crate is shipped or do they need prior notice or do I just ask them to handle it when it arrives?
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Riggsbie » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:09 pm

I didn't pay import duties on my Mango, just GST !


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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:58 pm

Bartek wrote:hopefully I wont pay any GST!

John my Mango should arrive mid January, so how much notice do I need to give Khuene & Nagel is it just a case of letting them know when the crate is shipped or do they need prior notice or do I just ask them to handle it when it arrives?


I paid GST just not any duty.

First I knew velo had arrived was when K & N phoned me. They then emailed docs which I printed, signed and scanned then emailed back. That sped things up. Docs were authority for them to act o my behalf.

I did mention that bike complete stuff to them but I think they were on top of that.

They emailed an invoice and I sent it via bank draft. Could have used credit card or whatever.
K & N were extremely helpful and I commend them for their good work.

John
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Baalzamon » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:25 pm

I might add I happened to be at Johns place when he got the phone call from K & N. Think I should have turned up sooner :)
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Bartek » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:05 pm

John Lewis wrote:
First I knew velo had arrived was when K & N phoned me.


Did you inform them prior to its arrival or did Sinner arrange that?
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Rhubarb » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:28 pm

Bartek wrote:hopefully I wont pay any GST!



Good luck with that. What's your argument going to be? "no GST on basic food, ie mangoes ?"
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Joeblake » Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:54 pm

Rhubarb wrote:Good luck with that. What's your argument going to be? "no GST on basic food, ie mangoes ?"


Personal mobile global climate change de-intensifying, physical health improving module, with psychological stress reduction capacity? :wink:


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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:11 pm

Bartek wrote:
John Lewis wrote:
First I knew velo had arrived was when K & N phoned me.


Did you inform them prior to its arrival or did Sinner arrange that?


That was all arranged from Sinner's end. I think K & N were the shipping agent they used.
At that time communication with Sinner was hopeless so I had no idea of what was going on. Much improved these days though since Harma took the reins.

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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby mozart » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:13 pm

John Lewis wrote:
First I knew velo had arrived was when K & N phoned me. They then emailed docs which I printed, signed and scanned then emailed back. That sped things up. Docs were authority for them to act o my behalf.

I did mention that bike complete stuff to them but I think they were on top of that.

They emailed an invoice and I sent it via bank draft. Could have used credit card or whatever.
K & N were extremely helpful and I commend them for their good work.

John



Sorry I could't get back to on computer that been away , family friend passed away over weekend.

I'm totally confused now . this is actually what happened to me is like John had did. Had telephone call from K & N then they sent me email with the documents that which I printed off & scan and sign & sent email back, I did mention it was bike. I pick up mail today, paperwork from K & N , it say velomobile on paperwork that maybe why that I have to pay the 5% ? .

Anyway back to to the the mango finally got out for a ride this morning ,15 km It took a little while to get used to this steering I did't have time set up video camera I made sort clip of ride, http://youtu.be/pssu8EXthYg next time it be longer
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby John Lewis » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:14 pm

mozart wrote:
John Lewis wrote:
First I knew velo had arrived was when K & N phoned me. They then emailed docs which I printed, signed and scanned then emailed back. That sped things up. Docs were authority for them to act o my behalf.

I did mention that bike complete stuff to them but I think they were on top of that.

They emailed an invoice and I sent it via bank draft. Could have used credit card or whatever.
K & N were extremely helpful and I commend them for their good work.

John



Sorry I could't get back to on computer that been away , family friend passed away over weekend.

I'm totally confused now . this is actually what happened to me is like John had did. Had telephone call from K & N then they sent me email with the documents that which I printed off & scan and sign & sent email back, I did mention it was bike. I pick up mail today, paperwork from K & N , it say velomobile on paperwork that maybe why that I have to pay the 5% ? .

Anyway back to to the the mango finally got out for a ride this morning ,15 km It took a little while to get used to this steering I did't have time set up video camera I made sort clip of ride, http://youtu.be/pssu8EXthYg next time it be longer

Hi Jim,

Sorry you have lost a friend. Condolences.

I looked at my paperwork and it says on one of them Sinner Bike. The other says bicycle. No mention of velomobile.

If you PM your email address I'll send you a copy of my paperwork for comparison.

Maybe you can chase it up with K &N.

Liked your little video. You are managing faster than I did. Think my best average was 22 over about 12 km. The fastest of that was in a quartering headwind. I think I was getting some sail effect to lessen my effort.
My first time at speed over 50kmh I lost it and was over 2 lanes on the road. Scary.

What area is that you were riding? Looks like a nice quiet rural setting.

John
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby mozart » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:18 am

I just been talking to K & N , the reason that I have to pay duty because it is not a two wheels bicycle, velomobile goes under a three wheels tricycle there duty on velomobile :(

Thanks John for information and for you help.

James
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Rhubarb » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:52 am

mozart wrote:I just been talking to K & N , the reason that I have to pay duty because it is not a two wheels bicycle, velomobile goes under a three wheels tricycle there duty on velomobile :(

Thanks John for information and for you help.

James


Hhmmmm - You're the 6th or 7th to import a mango into Aus now but the 1st to pay import duty. I think you've been fleeced.

Edit - I don't mean to be nasty BTW. I'm trying to say you're a victim here of some dodgy interpretation. Its not huge in the scheme of things but worth pursuing if you can. Good luck mate.
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Re: Living with a velomobile

Postby Aushiker » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:34 pm

mozart wrote:I just been talking to K & N , the reason that I have to pay duty because it is not a two wheels bicycle, velomobile goes under a three wheels tricycle there duty on velomobile :(


Interesting response. Do you by chance have the HS Commodity Code (required for determining the duty and for importation) or the duty code that they are using to determine what duty applies to a tricycle. They should supply this to justify the duty payable notice anyway.

The reason I ask is there does not appear to be a HS commodity code for tricycles, except for those for children aged up to three years old; well according to the Duty Code Calculator. I don't currently have Excel installed so cannot check the ABS code listing.

BTW if the Duty Calculator is correct, import duty of 5% is actually payable on bicycles so it may be a mute point anyway. It appears that the concession has expired.

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