Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

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Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby mrgolf » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:10 pm

Hi. I have been running Hutchinson Fusion3 Tubeless on a set of Stans Alpha 340 for about a month now and I checked the tyre this afternoon and it seems to have a number of splits on the sidewall. Not cuts. Splits. I have run them at a max of 110psi and I only weigh 65kgs, so its not overloading or overinflating. There seem to be two kinds of split. Some are similar to perishing splits with no even or linear pattern to the split (i.e. it doesn't hold a consistent line around the radius of the tyre. In some places it stays on a specific radial line, but often wanders up and down the sidewall). These splits could look like cuts and they are not very deep They don't even penetrate the outer layer.

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=1C42B21E609BE3C2!293&authkey=!ANqDVoXwYjBVXPk

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=1C42B21E609BE3C2!290&authkey=!AMiApQ_WzxSttv4

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=1C42B21E609BE3C2!289&authkey=!ACVGhCTrvdIEgNk


The other splits are at the base of the sidewall just above the bead and are more concerning as they are quite deep. They tend to follow the radius of the rim, but at the end often change direction towards the rolling surface of the tyre. You can see the splits just above the edge of the rim in this pic. There are splits like this at many points around the tyre.

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=1C42B21E609BE3C2!292&authkey=!AJB-AW4spp2L6Yg

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=1C42B21E609BE3C2!291&authkey=!AOT9FHs8id_Ei28

The reason I think this is odd is because the front tyre shows no such issues. Yes, it is underloaded by comparison, but there is no sign of damage. They have travelled about 1500kms since install. Any ideas? Manufacturing issue? Don't ride that tyre again ever? Email pics to Hutchinson? Claim warranty? I run a set of Intensives on my commute bike, but no splits on them (only about 150kms...)

Also, when I deflated they tyre, it came off the bead instantly. I thought the bead was meant to hold in place instead of returning to the centre channel.
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by BNA » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:38 pm

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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby greyhoundtom » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:38 pm

They are certainly weird cuts ......... it just about looks like someone has taken a Stanley knife to the tire. :shock:
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby Crawf » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:39 pm

My Atoms, Fusions and Intensives all have similar cuts but none are on an angle like that first pic - mine all run straightish. Very weird.
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby Snicks » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:35 pm

Exactly the issue I used to have with mine, thus the reason I abandoned them not so long ago, however I never looked into exactly why they did that...
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby Pottsy » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:19 pm

I had a similar issue with my 2 sets of Hutchinson's. splitting on the tread.

I returned them & got 2 new sets under warranty. If you bought them in Aus i would return them. If not then good luck.

BTW 110 psi is overkill for tubeless. Im 70kg & was running 85-90 psi
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby mrgolf » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:21 pm

Hmmm... Any idea as to cause? I have been advised I shouldnt worry too much about it. I am ordering a new rear, though. Got a 350km ride coming up that needs security.

You arent the first person to suggest my pressures were too high. Problem is, I run 120 on tubed wheels on account of it running faster due to lower rolling resistance. When I ran the fusions at manufacturers recommended it felt more sluggish and like it required more effort. GPS was inconclusive, but I still prefer the harder feeling of higher pressure. I still cant accept that lower pressures wont end up giving higher rolling resistance. It seems completely counter intuitive.
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby twizzle » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:54 pm

Talking to someone connected with a shop, the owner had the same kind of issue when trialling the original fusion tubeless - splitting where the compounds joined. The local distributor was 'difficult' about it, so the shop never sold them to the public.

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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby Cruiserman » Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:01 am

With reference to Sheldon Brown - Such high pressures will assist if you ride on a wooden velodrome all the time otherwise it is counter productive. I have highlighted the relevent part of the short cut and paste from http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html

The higher the air pressure, the less the tire will deflect.
The trade-off with this is that if you pump the tire up too hard, you lose the benefits of pneumatic tires: the ride becomes excessively harsh, and traction will be reduced. In addition, extremely high pressures require a stronger (heavier) fabric and stronger (heavier) rim flanges.

When riding on a smooth surface, rolling resistance does decrease theoretically with any increase in pressure, but with modern, high-quality tires the rolling resistance at correct inflation pressure is already so low that the infinitesimal reductions gained are more than outweighed by the trade-offs.

In practice, riding surfaces aren't perfectly smooth, and overinflation actually increases rolling resistance, due to vibration.
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby jcjordan » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:40 pm

Cruiserman wrote:With reference to Sheldon Brown - Such high pressures will assist if you ride on a wooden velodrome all the time otherwise it is counter productive. I have highlighted the relevent part of the short cut and paste from http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html

The higher the air pressure, the less the tire will deflect.
The trade-off with this is that if you pump the tire up too hard, you lose the benefits of pneumatic tires: the ride becomes excessively harsh, and traction will be reduced. In addition, extremely high pressures require a stronger (heavier) fabric and stronger (heavier) rim flanges.

When riding on a smooth surface, rolling resistance does decrease theoretically with any increase in pressure, but with modern, high-quality tires the rolling resistance at correct inflation pressure is already so low that the infinitesimal reductions gained are more than outweighed by the trade-offs.

In practice, riding surfaces aren't perfectly smooth, and overinflation actually increases rolling resistance, due to vibration.


You need to take this theory with some additional thinking as there is a point where (depending on the wait of the rider) that two low a pressure becomes counter productive. Fir instance I can see a major change in handing if I let my tires drop to 110 psi from its normal 120.
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby Cruiserman » Mon Dec 31, 2012 11:37 am

jcjordan wrote:
Cruiserman wrote:With reference to Sheldon Brown - Such high pressures will assist if you ride on a wooden velodrome all the time otherwise it is counter productive. I have highlighted the relevent part of the short cut and paste from http://sheldonbrown.com/tires.html

The higher the air pressure, the less the tire will deflect.
The trade-off with this is that if you pump the tire up too hard, you lose the benefits of pneumatic tires: the ride becomes excessively harsh, and traction will be reduced. In addition, extremely high pressures require a stronger (heavier) fabric and stronger (heavier) rim flanges.

When riding on a smooth surface, rolling resistance does decrease theoretically with any increase in pressure, but with modern, high-quality tires the rolling resistance at correct inflation pressure is already so low that the infinitesimal reductions gained are more than outweighed by the trade-offs.

In practice, riding surfaces aren't perfectly smooth, and overinflation actually increases rolling resistance, due to vibration.


You need to take this theory with some additional thinking as there is a point where (depending on the wait of the rider) that two low a pressure becomes counter productive. Fir instance I can see a major change in handing if I let my tires drop to 110 psi from its normal 120.


Not really the salient point in the comment was "correct inflation pressure" as distinct from maximum inflation and/or under inflation.
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby mrgolf » Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:00 pm

Does the same logic apply to tubulars and tubed clinchers?
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby Cruiserman » Wed Jan 02, 2013 5:28 pm

mrgolf wrote:Does the same logic apply to tubulars and tubed clinchers?


Yes however tubed clinchers run the risk of pinch flatting a non issue with tubeless.
Tubulars are assisted in staying on the rim by the higher pressures and they do not put massive pressure on the wall of the rim. Pinch flats are greatly reduced ( but not eliminated as there is a tube in there) with the tubular due to the absence of the rim walls required for the clincher.
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:54 pm

Road tubeless = epic failure
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby mrgolf » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:19 pm

keyboard warrior = epic failure.

Either enlighten us with a succinct description of your negative experience or dont bother posting. Unless I have missed that you are the god of cycling whose opinion should be listened to and agreed with/ adhered to. I like discussion, but not unnecessary negative verballing. No actual offence meant. Just saying....

In other news, the splits haven't gotten any bigger and the tyres are still working a charm. I still havent reduced my pressures, though. I could be convinced to go as low as 100psi, but not much lower...
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby twizzle » Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:46 pm

Having played with them... road tubeless appears to be a solution looking for a problem.


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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby jacks1071 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:59 am

mrgolf wrote:keyboard warrior = epic failure.

Either enlighten us with a succinct description of your negative experience or dont bother posting. Unless I have missed that you are the god of cycling whose opinion should be listened to and agreed with/ adhered to. I like discussion, but not unnecessary negative verballing. No actual offence meant. Just saying....

In other news, the splits haven't gotten any bigger and the tyres are still working a charm. I still havent reduced my pressures, though. I could be convinced to go as low as 100psi, but not much lower...


There is a mega thread in the shed section where you'll find details on my experiences. I'll recap for you briefly :-)

Most people try tubeless because they think it'll mean they never get another flat tyre. In my experience going from durable training "tubed" tyres to the somewhat less durable tubeless tyres provided exactly the opposite to what I was hoping for. Ie. My puncture rate increased.

Yes, some punctures self healed but they were punctures that otherwise wouldn't have existed with a more durable tyre. Other punctures didn't heal and sprayed my buddies and I in sealant.

After you've had to slosh through the sealant to stick a tube in the tyre on the side of the road once or twice you'll be looking for the trash can.

I tried two models of tyres (Intensive & Fusion 2) and I used both Stans and Joes Road Racer sealant. I ran this setup on a few different sets of wheels and formed my opinion over a few thousand kms.

I like the theory behind road tubeless, the idea of less punctures is romantic but in my experience the tyres are rubbish. Sure some people will swear by it but it didn't take me long to go back to tubes. If you want less punctures, buy a training tyre.
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby twizzle » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:48 am

Panaracer Race Type D. I've done ~900km in the last two weeks without a puncture, despite Chrissy and New Year road decorations. Best "training" tyre I've come across so far... but you have to search to get them cheaply and they wear quickly.


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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby skull » Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:19 am

twizzle wrote:Panaracer Race Type D. I've done ~900km in the last two weeks without a puncture, despite Chrissy and New Year road decorations.
Sent from my iThingy...


Now that summernats is on there will be quite a lot more side of road ornaments most likely.

I just did a bulk order of conti gatorskins thru wiggle. $30 each.

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Last edited by skull on Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby sumgy » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:13 am

twizzle wrote:Having played with them... road tubeless appears to be a solution looking for a problem.


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Having read lots about them on various forums I came to the same conclusion.
I am yet to see a valid benefit of them over tubed tyres.
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Re: Fusion 3 Tubeless issue

Postby mrgolf » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:18 pm

Thanks for the detailed rundown, Jacks1071

For the record, I ran GP4000s, Attack/ Force and Ultremo ZX. I flirted with Gatorskins a couple of times, but didnt see an advantage in durability or puncture resistance. I had a brilliant run with most of these tyres and assume they fit the category of race tyres. I haven't had an issue with the Fusion3's or Intensives (other than the aforementioned splits) so far, but have flicked a few bits of glass out of the rolling surface. I would have done a couple of thousand kms on the Fusions so far. A more measured judgement of success can be made in about 6 months time.

I imagine it wouldn't be fun to get covered in sealant when changing tubes. I hope I dont suffer that ever, but accept I will at some point.
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