Help with spoke length

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Help with spoke length

Postby rifraf » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:14 pm

Hi,
I'm hoping someone can offer a little help with checking spoke lengths before I order some spokes for a wheel build.
I wish to build up some touring wheels using Velocity Dyad rims, a son28 centerlock disk hub and my Rohloff hub.

I've tried using Freespoke.com
It tells me for the son28 centerlock disk hub and a 700c Velocity Dyad rim 36 spoke utilising a 3x build;

Left Right

Spoke length 284.9mm 285.2mm

Bracing angle 4.5° 5.1°

Tension distribution 100% 88%

Spoke head clearance 2.52 mm 2.52 mm

I'm guessing I order to the nearest even spoke length?
Will 286mm be the correct spoke length to get?
Last edited by rifraf on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by BNA » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:16 pm

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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby rifraf » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:16 pm

Ha! All my carefully spaced work has gone out the window but I think its still readable. :(

Freespoke gives me the same spoke measurement as the Rohloff site for the IGH and Dyad rim of 262mm for a 2x build.

That seems straight forward enough or might there be something I've overlooked :?: (as per usual :roll: :lol: :lol: )

Left Right

Spoke length 262mm 262mm

Bracing angle 6.6° 6.6°

Tension distribution 100% 100%

Spoke head clearance 10.96 mm 10.96 mm
Last edited by rifraf on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby RonK » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:37 pm

Something seems odd about that spoke length calculation. Can the offset be that small?

I would have ordered 285 mm.

Assuming this is for 26" rims, my front (Son 28) wheel is 3x and the rear is 2x.
Last edited by RonK on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby rifraf » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:41 pm

RonK wrote:Something seems odd about that spoke length calculation. Can the offset be that small?

I would have ordered 285 mm.

I think the spokes I'm ordering only come in 2mm increments - I'll have to check
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby rifraf » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:46 pm

RonK wrote:Assuming this is for 26" rims, my front (Son 28) wheel is 3x and the rear is 2x.


No it for 700c which I'm thinking is correct for 29er

3x for the front and 2x for the rear
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby RonK » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:03 pm

Looking at the diagram in the link that Alex posted (if it's the right hub), there is only 2mm flange offset, so perhaps the small difference in spoke length is correct. It might be fiddly to build a wheel with a 2mm dish, with the distribution of spoke tension that is recommended. I wonder if it's worth the trouble, but I can't really say.

Tsk, tsk, the complications you introduce to have disc brakes.

The Rohloff/Andra build required 238mm spokes.
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby Baalzamon » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:09 pm

I worked out 285.4 & 285.2mm for the front

RonK wrote:The Rohloff/Andra build required 238mm spokes.
Yep but that is for 26"
One calc for the rohloff is suggesting 262mm spokes for the Velocity dyad

So Aidan seems our 2 calcs are in agreement
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby RonK » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:09 pm

Well, I think 285mm would be fine for both sides of the front, dished or not.
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby rifraf » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:13 pm

I just found the Son/Schmidt calculator

http://www.nabendynamo.de/service/speic ... er_en.html

I offered up the ERD of 596mm PCD of 54 Distance flange a - center:25 Crossings x3 Spokes 36

This offers a calculated spoke length of 286.6

"Preferred spoke length = 286/285

I'm assuming I go for 286 if only even spoke lengths are available in my spoke choice?
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby rifraf » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:17 pm

Baalzamon wrote:I worked out 285.4 & 285.2mm for the front

RonK wrote:The Rohloff/Andra build required 238mm spokes.
Yep but that is for 26"
One calc for the rohloff is suggesting 262mm spokes for the Velocity dyad

So Aidan seems our 2 calcs are in agreement


Magic, that appears to be the rear out of the way - thank you :!:

RonK wrote:Well, I think 285mm would be fine for both sides of the front, dished or not.


The CX-Rays only come in 2mm increments and I'm hoping not to have to suffer the cost of getting them shortened and rerolled like last time.

In that case it would appear I have to decide to order a little short at 284mm or long at 286mm hmmmmmmmmm :?
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby RonK » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:24 pm

rifraf wrote:
Baalzamon wrote:I worked out 285.4 & 285.2mm for the front

RonK wrote:The Rohloff/Andra build required 238mm spokes.
Yep but that is for 26"
One calc for the rohloff is suggesting 262mm spokes for the Velocity dyad

So Aidan seems our 2 calcs are in agreement


Magic, that appears to be the rear out of the way - thank you :!:

RonK wrote:Well, I think 285mm would be fine for both sides of the front, dished or not.


The CX-Rays only come in 2mm increments and I'm hoping not to have to suffer the cost of getting them shortened and rerolled like last time.

If they are sold in even numbered increments then I would order 286mm lengths. But CX-Rays would be a waste of money. DT Champion or Competition or Sapim Race will be fine.
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby rifraf » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:44 pm

RonK wrote:If they are sold in even numbered increments then I would order 286mm lengths. But CX-Rays would be a waste of money. DT Champion or Competition or Sapim Race will be fine.

Lets be honest, plain gauge no name stainless would probably be fine for my use but..........
Wheels are something I dont mind spending extra on. I've had a great run from my wheelbuilder.com set and I'm hoping to replicate the trouble free
existence I've experience I've had so far with them. If it wasn't that I don't want my Rohloff out of my sight, I'd just box and mail my hubs to wheelbuilder to once again take care of. The person I dealt with has left so I don't have the same confidence with regards to posting Rohloff and Son28 to America. :|

Thanks heaps for the help and suggestions :D
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby RonK » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:12 pm

For a 29er you may want to consider the Velocity Cliffhanger rims as used on the Comotion Divide.
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby rifraf » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:25 pm

RonK wrote:For a 29er you may want to consider the Velocity Cliffhanger rims as used on the Comotion Divide.


I havnt ordered yet as I'm waiting for my next pay so I'll definitely have a squiz at the cliffhangers.

The Divide looks like a great bike with excellent spec. Shame theres such little around here to go look at except the standard stuff eg. Giant etc.

Not that theres anything wrong with the offerings but if you want something outside the box your left a little wanting is my experience "so far".

Thanks for the suggestion :)
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby rifraf » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:38 pm

RonK wrote:For a 29er you may want to consider the Velocity Cliffhanger rims as used on the Comotion Divide.

Interestingly enough, well for me anyway, they spec either Dyad or Velocity's 26" extrusion version the Aeroheat more than any other rim in their lineup
of tandams and singles. Not suggesting that they dont with good reason prefer the cliffhanger to the Dyad for the Divide, but like so much of the limited detail they offer in their online communication medium, they lack information and reasoning whilst producing a premium priced product whose potential customers
might balk at someone making their decisions for them willy nilly. Wheres the spoke count and wheres the brand/model of the spokes? for starters.
Wheres their half price frame and fork combos :?: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Lovely bits of kit for sure but a frustrating lack of detail for those like me that need a little convincing to part with huge wads of dosh.

Velocity Cliffhanger
SIZE: 700c

BSD: 622mm

ERD: 585mm

WEIGHT: 648grams

SIDEWALL: Machined and Non Machined sidewall available.

DRILLINGS: 32h, 36h, 40h, 48h

COLOURS: Black anodised,



Dyad 700c Technical Information

SIZE: 700c

BSD: 622mm

ERD: 596mm

WEIGHT: 480grams

SIDEWALL: Machined sidewall & Non machined sidewall

DRILLINGS: 32h, 36h, 40h, 48h

COLOURS: Black anodized, Silver anodized
Last edited by rifraf on Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby RonK » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:14 pm

rifraf wrote:Not suggesting that they dont with good reason prefer the cliffhanger to the Dyad for the Divide, but like so much of the limited detail they offer in their online communication medium, they lack information and reasoning whilst producing a premium priced product whose potential customers might balk at someone making their decisions for them willy nilly. Wheres the spoke count and wheres the brand/model of the spokes? for starters.

Well, I'm not aware of any complete bike where the buyer gets to choose his own specification. I do know that Comotion will build wheels to your specification and customise just about anything else, because all the bikes are built in house, not mass-produced by some factory in Taiwan or China.

As a matter of fact, Neil Gunton had his wheels built with 40 spokes, but since you want Rohloff that will not be an option.

But all your ruminations have been about buying a frame, not a complete bike, and you've already acquired the major components, so, so what if the complete bike spec is not finely detailed.

My personal choice would be the Velocity Chukker - I have them on my Sabbath, they have a deep profile and are very strong.
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby rifraf » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:37 pm

RonK wrote:
rifraf wrote:Not suggesting that they dont with good reason prefer the cliffhanger to the Dyad for the Divide, but like so much of the limited detail they offer in their online communication medium, they lack information and reasoning whilst producing a premium priced product whose potential customers might balk at someone making their decisions for them willy nilly. Wheres the spoke count and wheres the brand/model of the spokes? for starters.

Well, I'm not aware of any complete bike where the buyer gets to choose his own specification. I do know that Comotion will build wheels to your specification and customise just about anything else, because all the bikes are built in house, not mass-produced by some factory in Taiwan or China.

As a matter of fact, Neil Gunton had his wheels built with 40 spokes, but since you want Rohloff that will not be an option.

But all your ruminations have been about buying a frame, not a complete bike, and you've already acquired the major components, so, so what if the complete bike spec is not finely detailed.

My personal choice would be the Velocity Chukker - I have them on my Sabbath, they have a deep profile and are very strong.


Well actually I get the impression that Co-motion allow for a lot of customisation which is great and much better than most of the competition. :D
My complaint is minor in that their floorshop stock standard, is on their website, might do with a little more detail which is where the devil is in :wink:
Most of the bikes I've looked at online tell me which spokes and tyres (including size) they use/allow so I was a little surprised that they dont although it might come down to which company is offering the best price at the time. :idea:
In fact to many buyers this is very important eg. Surly Ogres come factory with 2.35 tyres but the spec sheet informs the buyer they can fit up to 2.5's.
As a Co-motion Rohloff Divide frame is available bare, options are always interesting to me right up until the last possible moment when I hit the buy now button.
Frame weight would be nice to have as a comparison too. I suppose they dont want to frighten off potential buyers with the scare that is chrome-molly even if it is Reynolds tubing of a very high standard. :lol:
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby rifraf » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:51 am

Purely on a humorous note, I downloaded the Divide Rohloff pdf from Co-motion and its spec sheet suggests DT540/Rohloff Hubs; Aeroheat Rims. Tyres: Continental Town and Country 26"x2.1. This is an interesting spec for a 29er. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby HappyHumber » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:22 pm

Just laced up some 700c Cliffhangers to a pair of Deore disc hubs. Originally wanted some Psychos, but they only had 32h available when my hubs are 36h. I'm yet to tension & true, as my cheapie wheel stand is in a partial state of assembly undergoing some life saving mods.

They sure feel tough!
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby rifraf » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:46 pm

Hi Kym,
where did you source the cliffhangers? And of course how much? What determined your purchase decision? The Dyads, are for me, a bit more of a known quantity and marginally lighter than the Cliffhanger. Pricewise , Jensonusa are about $52 from memory on the Dyads plus shipping of course but if I buy a frame through them, then there is no difference throwing in the rims. No suggestion the Cliffhanger arnt a great rim, I just want to see a similar bang for buck. :D
I too will be using 36H.
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby RonK » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:18 pm

rifraf wrote:In fact to many buyers this is very important eg. Surly Ogres come factory with 2.35 tyres but the spec sheet informs the buyer they can fit up to 2.5's.

I've been meaning to ask you about this but keep forgetting. Why do you think you need tyres this wide anyway? Are you planning a desert tour?

After my backroad experiences with 32mm tyres last tour I'll be taking the 2" tyres off the Pioneer and putting the 1.6" tyres back on. Unless most of your ride is going to be on soft unsealed roads, there is no sense in pushing fat, slow and heavy tyres.
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby HappyHumber » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:46 pm

rifraf wrote:where did you source the cliffhangers? And of course how much? What determined your purchase decision? The Dyads, are for me, a bit more of a known quantity and marginally lighter than the Cliffhanger. Pricewise , Jensonusa are about $52 from memory on the Dyads plus shipping of course but if I buy a frame through them, then there is no difference throwing in the rims. No suggestion the Cliffhanger arnt a great rim, I just want to see a similar bang for buck. :D

The couple of times I've used Velocity rims I've ordered them through my LBS. They're basically their own distributor in Australia in so far as I can tell. I hadn't come across any online source for them.

My criteria basically was a wide 622mm/700c/29er rim. I'll admit straight out the bike build is more an exercise of form over function. I just wanted a bigger diameter wheel, being able to running lower pressures. The frame basically has clearances for 2.5" tyres, despite being a fairly plain looking with a traditional horizontal top tube. The build is intended to be a sort of homage to the old baloon tyred scorchers from the earlier 20th century.

I doubt these wheels will see the serious kilometres as you're intending yours, so I'm not sure how comparable our usage will be.
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby rifraf » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:39 pm

RonK wrote:
rifraf wrote:In fact to many buyers this is very important eg. Surly Ogres come factory with 2.35 tyres but the spec sheet informs the buyer they can fit up to 2.5's.

I've been meaning to ask you about this but keep forgetting. Why do you think you need tyres this wide anyway? Are you planning a desert tour?

After my backroad experiences with 32mm tyres last tour I'll be taking the 2" tyres off the Pioneer and putting the 1.6" tyres back on. Unless most of your ride is going to be on soft unsealed roads, there is no sense in pushing fat, slow and heavy tyres.


Hi Ron,
yeah I want to try some off road touring.
I actually want to follow in the tyreprints of some of Coops smaller tours.
I hear ya and agree, theres little advantage on the tarmac to anything wider sized.
Even on that though I wont be going back to the 1.1 high pressure tyres I used to run.
The Moulton is fine for the tarmac and gravel trails but I need something that can tow a trailer off road for trips like the Munda Biddi and Mawson, which the Moulton isnt quite up to. Its great for what it can do and has vastly exceeded my expectations but it does have limits and I wish to go past them. Much taller and wider tyres I'm hoping will also make up somewhat for the lack of suspension I'm used to riding on an onroad dually. :)
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Re: Help with spoke length

Postby rifraf » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:36 am

HappyHumber wrote:

My criteria basically was a wide 622mm/700c/29er rim. I'll admit straight out the bike build is more an exercise of form over function. I just wanted a bigger diameter wheel, being able to running lower pressures. The frame basically has clearances for 2.5" tyres, despite being a fairly plain looking with a traditional horizontal top tube. The build is intended to be a sort of homage to the old baloon tyred scorchers from the earlier 20th century.
I doubt these wheels will see the serious kilometres as you're intending yours, so I'm not sure how comparable our usage will be.


Sounds great 8) What frame are you going for :?: Will you be having racks or fenders :?: 2.5 tyres :shock: I thought I was being adventurous with the 2.35's (probably Schwalbe Big Apple Kevlarguard 29Er Tire 29X2.35 to start with) . I've hardly done any kilometers, serious or otherwise since I got to WA as my extra 10kg would suggest. I'm just now starting to shake a leg and make decisions with regards bike build. Doing nothing will kill me so gotta start planning the next tour. :roll:
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