Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

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Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby lammy » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:59 am

I have been looking around recently for ways to improve riding power and speed as I just started using Strava and comparing my segments with others (its a slippery slope I know). My speed is definately increasing but quite slowly. I ride a lot to work and at weekends, but I am pretty sure there is much more unleashed potential and power locked in these old legs yet!!

After reading around I am 100% convinced, improving my nutrition, sleep, recovery and HRM training this will work.

Problem is there are so many different opinions on using heart rate monitors and HIT, I struggling to find anything that fits in with my time, riding & commute, therefore from today decided on the following and wanted to know if anybody done anything similar and got some results.

Objective = Increase average from 29-30kph to 32-33kph & lower my average heart rate on rides.

Time = 4 Weeks.

Cycling Australia official Heart Rate Zones =
50-64% Zone 1
64-74% Zone 2
75-84% Zone 3
85-91% Zone 4
92-100% Zone 5.

Commute/Training =
Sun - 100km ride in Zone 2, with 10 x 30-40 second sprints in Zone 5.
Tues to Fri 2 x 25km rides in Zone 2 with 6 x 30-40 second sprints in Zone 5.
Mon - 2 x 25km rides regular pace to determine results

More sleep 7-8 hours.
Protein shake after each ride for recovery & small amount carbs.
1 bottle water per hour on all rides even my commutes, I never usually drank
More carbs before, during and after ride. fig biscuits, museli bars, bananas
Try not to over eat after rides.
Go from 78-80kg to 73-75kg.

I will post any results and links to Strava it should be interesting, love to hear if this is going to work or be an epic fail!!!
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by BNA » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:29 pm

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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby george-bob » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:29 pm

sounds like a solid plan! you could also include some hill reps for strength as well as some constant speed efforts for endurance (30minutes zone 3, for instance).

i will be keeping an eye out for your outcome.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby sogood » Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:40 pm

lammy wrote:Objective = Increase average from 29-30kph to 32-33kph & lower my average heart rate on rides.

Time = 4 Weeks.

Commute/Training =
Sun - 100km ride in Zone 2, with 10 x 30-40 second sprints in Zone 5.
Tues to Fri 2 x 25km rides in Zone 2 with 6 x 30-40 second sprints in Zone 5.
Mon - 2 x 25km rides regular pace to determine results

1) Riding more will improve your performance, even if without HRM.
2) Using speed average as a determinant of performance can be inaccurate, one that can be drastically affected by road condition, wind, general weather etc.
3) If you want to use scientific methods and structured training, then it's important to get the detail right. For a start on HR based training, you must know your HRmax accurately (by proper test), or all that zone talk are meaningless. Age table is waste of time if you are serious.
3) "100km in zone 2/25km in zone 2 etc". That's pretty long for HR. For long endurance rides and given your relatively light schedule, don't hold back to zone 2. Make use of the distance and time to induce more adaptation.
4) HR based training are best known in association with interval training (similar to power based training). You should Google the term "Interval Training" and reconsider your plan. For a rough plan of 3 sessions, you should probably look into 1 endurance ride (100km) and for the remaining two days, consider 2x20 intervals on those days at threshold levels. Then rest and eat well in the remaining 4 days.
5) 4 weeks will show results, but you should set your sight longer if you really want to jump that 3km/h.

Hope this helps.

BTW, there's a training sub-forum on this site and your post is probably best in there. You should also read up on others' posts on similar.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:06 pm

lammy wrote:Objective = Increase average from 29-30kph to 32-33kph & lower my average heart rate on rides.

Time = 4 Weeks.

Go from 78-80kg to 73-75kg.

Hmmm.

In 4 weeks you expect to increase speed (ceteris paribus) by 10%, which would require ~ 27% increase in sustainable power output and drop 5kg.

Unless your current fitness state is poor relative to where you have been in the past, and you already know are a fast responder to training, I think you might be a little ambitious on both fronts. It's not impossible (it would be for many people though), but it would be an impressive improvement.

Dropping 5kg in 4 weeks is too much too quickly while you are also attempting to improve sustainable power.

I also think you should reconsider the sprint intervals, and do some efforts that will have more profound and lasting impact on your sustainable aerobic power.

As to the specifics, impossible to comment without a much greater knowledge of you and your training history.

The general principles of ride more, ride more frequently, and progressively increase the workload with appropriate recovery as needed will go a long way.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby sogood » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:29 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:In 4 weeks you expect to increase speed (ceteris paribus) by 10%, which would require ~ 27% increase in sustainable power output and drop 5kg.

You are so evil to put it in that context... 27% increase in power. Ouch! :roll:
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby lammy » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:46 pm

No issues with the weight loss. 5kg in 4 weeks is doable for me.

I now think perhaps 4 weeks might be optimistic though. The good news is don't have any time constraints, I am doing this for me, not for a race, so I am going to give this a go anyway and see what happens.

25% increase is worrying though just for an extra 2kmh ouch, going to have to ride a more aero style too. I would like to know the added power achieved by losing 5kg is though. Not sure how true this is anymore but I watched an interview with lance armstrong he says 1kg weight loss up a 10km HC climb is worth 1 min. Probably more lies :roll:
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby sogood » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:53 pm

lammy wrote:25% increase is worrying though just for an extra 2kmh ouch, going to have to ride a more aero style too. I would like to know the added power achieved by losing 5kg is though. Not sure how true this is anymore but I watched an interview with lance armstrong he says 1kg weight loss up a 10km HC climb is worth 1 min. Probably more lies :roll:

I think you should read a bit more into the basic science of it.

1) More aero riding is cheating. That speed gain is not from you. By swapping for a TT bike and full aero gear, one can achieve a much greater speed improvement with exactly that same fitness.
2) 5kg weight loss will not add power but may in fact lose power. This is because weight loss is likely to be mostly fat and some muscle.
3) Weight is only relevant when you are going down or up a hill of significant gradient. Even then, it's likely to be a lot less time benefit than what you are thinking. LA's statement is no lie.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:50 pm

Speed up HC climbs is directly correlated with one's sustainable power to weight ratio, as gravity is the dominant resistance force (~90% of the energy demand). The speed-power relationship is quite linear on steep gradients. 10% more power =~ 10% more speed.

Speed on the flat is directly correlated with power to aero drag ratio, as air resistance is the dominant resistance force (80-90% of the energy demand). However the force of air resistance is not linear with speed. 10% more power =~ 3.5% more speed.

Overall the power-speed relationship can be expressed as a cubic equation with many variables.

Train to get powerful, eat to get lean.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby ChrisDelaneyAU » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:00 am

Lammy,

Best advice I could give... ride regularly with guys who are faster than you. Cling to their wheel, eventually you'll get fitter! Hills are also a great addition to any ride.

HR data is an ok guide but can be inaccurate, affected by temperature, hydration level and other physiological factors.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby lammy » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:24 am

Lol its turning into a bit of a science thesis, when all I wanna do is ride and get quicker in a different manner than just riding constantly fast every day.

Well 3 rides in already and the hardest thing is to keep below 74% MHR, with mountain bikers and hybrids passing me. However.... and more surprisingly I am paying particular attention to my breathing climbing hills to keep my heart rate down, plus noticing and adjusting my pedal strokes now I am moving slower. My average is way down but.... mmm this just may work!! Like Einstein said, the definition of madness is doing the same experiment over and over again and expecting a different result!
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Derny Driver » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:19 am

lammy wrote:
After reading around I am 100% convinced, improving my nutrition, sleep, recovery and HRM training this will work.


Im not convinced and neither is Alex who is one of the best cycle coaches in australia.
Take his advice to "ride more, ride more frequently, and progressively increase the workload with appropriate recovery as needed"
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:54 am

lammy wrote:Well 3 rides in already and the hardest thing is to keep below 74% MHR,

This is not necessary, practical, nor recommended, neither is it reflective of how we actually ride (or race for those that race).

Treat HR guidelines as just that, and don't be concerned with short term fluctuations above/below a general training level (e.g. on shorter hills). If you really are meant to not have extended periods of high HRs on a given day's ride (which is OK), then avoid routes with longer climbs where possible. On shorter hills you can get up them at a moderate effort level without attacking them but expect HR to still go above the overall session target for a few minutes.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby wardie » Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:09 pm

Just buy one of Alex's training plans and I'm sure you'll achieve all you want plus more.

Edit to add - this is not a sarcastic comment in anyway even though it may read as such.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Derny Driver » Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:47 pm

wardie wrote:Just buy one of Alex's training plans and I'm sure you'll achieve all you want plus more.

Edit to add - this is not a sarcastic comment in anyway even though it may read as such.

Its a good comment. There are 2 ways of achieving improved performance in cycling.
1. Ride your bike a lot, and throw away the HRM and the computer. I have 15 year old kids who race A grade, can do a 40km Time Trial in an hour, who ride old hand me down bikes with no computers or gadgets. No training plans required, just sensible advice followed.
2. If you want to go with the scientific method then half arsed advice passed on from internet forums wont cut it. Do it properly and speak to a person who knows about such things. A powermeter doesnt do anything for anyone unless it is used correctly. Heart rate monitors are next to useless in terms of improving performance.

Its great that this forum appears to be inhabited by lots of ordinary people who just love riding bikes. Its an eye opener to me because my involvement is purely road and track racing. Reading about people wanting to improve their skills and their fitness levels is fantastic. But I have no comprehension about why a person would be interested in improving average speeds or times on their training rides or way to work. Maybe that is how people try to measure improved personal performance or fitness? If so, it is wrong on so many levels.

lammy Im not trying to put anyone down, good on you for having goals and for making an effort to achieve them in some sort of systematic way. But to be honest, your "program' is terrible. Doing full gas sprints every 4km ...dont do that. Think seriously about getting an accredited coach to help you with a plan. Or just ride your bike a lot and dont overthink things too much.
Another thing to consider is joining your local cycling club. On the riding you already do you would be sweet to race. Like everyone, you will get your butt whipped by old blokes and little kids in D grade for a while, but the improvements will come quickly. You will move up grades and improve heaps. You will get real advice from the good riders and the club coaches, and test your performance and fitness on a weekly basis by bashing yourself up against other blokes of your age and ability. The masters racing scene is brilliant and you will never look back.
There are better things to aim for on your bike than knocking off Strava segments and doin 'fast' times in training.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby lammy » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:27 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
wardie wrote:Just buy one of Alex's training plans and I'm sure you'll achieve all you want plus more.
Its great that this forum appears to be inhabited by lots of ordinary people who just love riding bikes. Its an eye opener to me because my involvement is purely road and track racing. Reading about people wanting to improve their skills and their fitness levels is fantastic. But I have no comprehension about why a person would be interested in improving average speeds or times on their training rides or way to work. Maybe that is how people try to measure improved personal performance or fitness? If so, it is wrong on so many levels.

lammy Im not trying to put anyone down, good on you for having goals and for making an effort to achieve them in some sort of systematic way. But to be honest, your "program' is terrible. Doing full gas sprints every 4km ...dont do that. Think seriously about getting an accredited coach to help you with a plan. Or just ride your bike a lot and dont overthink things too much.
Another thing to consider is joining your local cycling club. On the riding you already do you would be sweet to race. Like everyone, you will get your butt whipped by old blokes and little kids in D grade for a while, but the improvements will come quickly. You will move up grades and improve heaps. You will get real advice from the good riders and the club coaches, and test your performance and fitness on a weekly basis by bashing yourself up against other blokes of your age and ability. The masters racing scene is brilliant and you will never look back.
There are better things to aim for on your bike than knocking off Strava segments and doin 'fast' times in training.


Thanks and great post. I cycle for what it gives me back, its just fun to get out there and try something new and better ones self. Measure 'better' how you want, in trophies, races, gradings, a PB, or just a self of achievement. If this doesnt work, its not a waste, any bike riding is good bike riding to me. Some great points though and I might even join a club as you suggest, seems I may get more out of it than I realise.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Derny Driver » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:51 pm

lammy wrote: any bike riding is good bike riding to me. .

Very true. I got injured in 2002 and my bike riding now is confined to about 5km on a cruiser on a bike path about 3 times a year. I miss the training and the racing, so yes, you are lucky to be fit and healthy and able to ride. Many cant. I still get my kicks by being involved in the sport in other ways.
Cycling has taken me to fantastic places and I have met just the BEST people through it.
Good luck lammy : )
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:49 pm

Derny Driver wrote: I still get my kicks by being involved in the sport in other ways.


I take it you drive a derny? Do you just run motorpace and kieren, or do you actually do derny racing?
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Derny Driver » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:20 pm

bigfriendlyvegan wrote:
Derny Driver wrote: I still get my kicks by being involved in the sport in other ways.


I take it you drive a derny? Do you just run motorpace and kieren, or do you actually do derny racing?

Hello BFV ... there is no derny racing in Australia unfortunately, I wish there was. And the only real dernys in Australia are at Dunc Gray and Adelaide velodromes (not sure about melbourne). I have my derny drivers ticket and I have ridden those beasts, they are very crude machines with a lawnmower lever throttle. Actually - here is some old footage of me on one at DGV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s-sIP3uSt0

My preferred derny pacing machine is a Korean built 125 motorscooter fitted with a roller. Yes I do heaps of motorpacing work, I run weekly track sessions for our club, 2 hours behind the moto, plus other sessions as required. For track championships, motorpacing is fantastic, I have given my time to help riders achieve State, National and World titles, its no secret that motorpacing gives us the edge over our competitors. Currently we are doing track training for the NSW and Australian Teams Pursuit Titles which are coming up soon in Sydney.
On the road, some of my friends have aspirations in National Road Time Trials (like the one on a few days ago) and my phone rings hot in the weeks preceding big races. I do road pacing on some quiet country roads where there is little or no traffic. My son also rides and I do some pacing for him sometimes.

So some big titles get won, and I get to share in the celebrations because I am unfit to race myself and have reinvented myself as a derny driver instead. I get to mix and rub shoulders with some seriously talented cyclists, way out of my league, but they appreciate what I do for them, and I enjoy helping them achieve their goals. I get to go to all the big races and events, carry bags, pump tyres, get coffees for people, encourage and try to inspire the riders to do well. I also get asked to ride the derny at country track carnivals, for the keirin and motorpace races, and again, I feel very privileged to be involved like that. As I said its a great sport and being a derny driver enables me to stay involved in it.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:43 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
bigfriendlyvegan wrote:
Derny Driver wrote: I still get my kicks by being involved in the sport in other ways.


I take it you drive a derny? Do you just run motorpace and kieren, or do you actually do derny racing?

Hello BFV ... there is no derny racing in Australia unfortunately, I wish there was. And the only real dernys in Australia are at Dunc Gray and Adelaide velodromes (not sure about melbourne). I have my derny drivers ticket and I have ridden those beasts, they are very crude machines with a lawnmower lever throttle. Actually - here is some old footage of me on one at DGV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s-sIP3uSt0

My preferred derny pacing machine is a Korean built 125 motorscooter fitted with a roller. Yes I do heaps of motorpacing work, I run weekly track sessions for our club, 2 hours behind the moto, plus other sessions as required. For track championships, motorpacing is fantastic, I have given my time to help riders achieve State, National and World titles, its no secret that motorpacing gives us the edge over our competitors. Currently we are doing track training for the NSW and Australian Teams Pursuit Titles which are coming up soon in Sydney.
On the road, some of my friends have aspirations in National Road Time Trials (like the one on a few days ago) and my phone rings hot in the weeks preceding big races. I do road pacing on some quiet country roads where there is little or no traffic. My son also rides and I do some pacing for him sometimes.

So some big titles get won, and I get to share in the celebrations because I am unfit to race myself and have reinvented myself as a derny driver instead. I get to mix and rub shoulders with some seriously talented cyclists, way out of my league, but they appreciate what I do for them, and I enjoy helping them achieve their goals. I get to go to all the big races and events, carry bags, pump tyres, get coffees for people, encourage and try to inspire the riders to do well. I also get asked to ride the derny at country track carnivals, for the keirin and motorpace races, and again, I feel very privileged to be involved like that. As I said its a great sport and being a derny driver enables me to stay involved in it.


DD, if you ever want to come out to Lidcombe and ride in front of us, you're more than welcome. I love being motorpaced at DGV, but those of us in the old and fat grade don't always get to do that often. It's great to see you're still in the sport. Derny drivers are wonderful creatures.

As for no derny racing, it's a shame, but I understand why. Reading Opperman's autobiography again recently has me gagging to see some.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Derny Driver » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:30 pm

bigfriendlyvegan wrote:
DD, if you ever want to come out to Lidcombe and ride in front of us, you're more than welcome. I love being motorpaced at DGV, but those of us in the old and fat grade don't always get to do that often. It's great to see you're still in the sport. Derny drivers are wonderful creatures.

As for no derny racing, it's a shame, but I understand why. Reading Opperman's autobiography again recently has me gagging to see some.

Saw derny racing at the Gent Six Day a few years ago, man, it is SPECTACULAR stuff. Absolutely brilliant.

Actually I was just asked today if I could do a derny session at southern Highlands (bowral) some time. I could do something at Tempe too I guess, just a matter of finding the time. So many fantastic and fun drills you can do with a scooter or small motorbike on the track.

To return the thread back to what I was saying to lammy about setting some goals which are higher than a Strava hunt or a PB training ride, last year I took 4 old blokes from my club, 3 B graders and a C grader, and we trained for weeks for the 150+ NSW Team Pursuit titles. 150+ means that the 3 youngest riders ages must total 150 years. They were aged 54, 47, 50 and 55. We practised, practised, practised. Standing starts. Swapping turns. We did sessions at DGV to get used to the banking. We borrowed wheels off people. I worked out all the gearing, lap times and schedules, how many laps each person was to do etc. And on the day guess what, they won and they had smiles like Cheshire cats for months afterwards. I have a nice photo of the 4 with their gold medals. They went on and came 3rd at Nationals ...this year they are hoping to go even better and win the National title. So much fun, comraderie ... yeah we know its not exactly sheep station stuff but its still pretty cool, setting a goal, working hard, and achieving it.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:14 am

Derny Driver wrote:To return the thread back to what I was saying to lammy about setting some goals which are higher than a Strava hunt or a PB training ride, last year I took 4 old blokes from my club, 3 B graders and a C grader, and we trained for weeks for the 150+ NSW Team Pursuit titles. 150+ means that the 3 youngest riders ages must total 150 years. They were aged 54, 47, 50 and 55. We practised, practised, practised. Standing starts. Swapping turns. We did sessions at DGV to get used to the banking. We borrowed wheels off people. I worked out all the gearing, lap times and schedules, how many laps each person was to do etc. And on the day guess what, they won and they had smiles like Cheshire cats for months afterwards. I have a nice photo of the 4 with their gold medals. They went on and came 3rd at Nationals ...this year they are hoping to go even better and win the National title. So much fun, comraderie ... yeah we know its not exactly sheep station stuff but its still pretty cool, setting a goal, working hard, and achieving it.


For the general population out there, DD might be new to this forum, but he's definitely one worth listening to on a wide range of cycling topics. His level of experience, knowledge and enthusiasm just doesn't grow on trees.

BTW DD, I (as a member of the Master's Commission) am trying to organise some Sunday mornings at DGV exclusively for Masters TP training in lead up to State and the the National Masters TP championships. It's looking 90% sorted but I still need to confirm a few things (Sunday access is bureaucratically problematic).

I'll be there as supervising CA coach/rep, access will be via NSWIS coach (who's also an RST coach), and it means we can have track clear and dedicated for team pursuit-specific drills. Plus Sunday means it will be easier for teams coming from further afield to get some time on the 250m boards. I'll also provide assistance/coaching advice/support to those that would like it. Costs will simply be to cover the standard DGV track hire fees (although I'm going to try and fix that to a per team rate, rather than per individual).

I'd love to use the derny for warmup (they do have a more normal 4 stroke moto at DGV now) as it controls things nicely. Ever since my leg thingy, I can't ride the DGV dernys as my knee won't bend far enough to use the pedals. I'd need a special derny leg (believe me I've actually tried to make a special short leg for it!).

Will let you know more once I've confirmed.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Derny Driver » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:17 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
For the general population out there, DD might be new to this forum, but he's definitely one worth listening to on a wide range of cycling topics. His level of experience, knowledge and enthusiasm just doesn't grow on trees.

BTW DD, I (as a member of the Master's Commission) am trying to organise some Sunday mornings at DGV exclusively for Masters TP training in lead up to State and the the National Masters TP championships. It's looking 90% sorted but I still need to confirm a few things (Sunday access is bureaucratically problematic).

I'll be there as supervising CA coach/rep, access will be via NSWIS coach (who's also an RST coach), and it means we can have track clear and dedicated for team pursuit-specific drills. Plus Sunday means it will be easier for teams coming from further afield to get some time on the 250m boards. I'll also provide assistance/coaching advice/support to those that would like it. Costs will simply be to cover the standard DGV track hire fees (although I'm going to try and fix that to a per team rate, rather than per individual).

I'd love to use the derny for warmup (they do have a more normal 4 stroke moto at DGV now) as it controls things nicely. Ever since my leg thingy, I can't ride the DGV dernys as my knee won't bend far enough to use the pedals. I'd need a special derny leg (believe me I've actually tried to make a special short leg for it!).

Will let you know more once I've confirmed.

haha thanks for the rap Alex ..yes let me know and I'll make sure we bring our track teams up for some practise. Im happy to do the warm-ups if you like. My new little derny is the smoothest thing, I wonder if they would allow it onto the boards? Be better than the moto they use there. Smaller and quieter. I could put it in my van and bring it up.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby sogood » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:16 am

Going off topic, is there an electric derny bike on the horizon? I always thought that drafting a combustion engine is not too healthy for the rider in tow.
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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby foo on patrol » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:07 am

I can't answer the first part of your question Sogood but we trained behind my TS250 two stroke for an hour or more at times with my dad riding it. I put around a mtr of copper pipe on a elbow to fire the exhaust up into the air and you never had any problems. :mrgreen:

For the record, those that have not done motor paced training, you don't know what you are missing out on. :wink: :mrgreen:

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Re: Confusing Heart Rate Training & HIT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:53 am

sogood wrote:Going off topic, is there an electric derny bike on the horizon? I always thought that drafting a combustion engine is not too healthy for the rider in tow.

No worse than riding on the roads with vastly more traffic.

I've never noticed exhaust from a motor bike or derny when motorpacing.
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