Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (MHL discussion)

[jules21]

many or even most laws are made as a judgment call, as much as supported by empirical evidence.

And MANY of us strongly believe that judgment call was WRONG. Furthermore, if people want we can supply evidence to support our views.

i don't doubt it - but i'll save you the trouble

[jcjordan]

It is so sad that Australians value freedom so very little.

including the freedom to exercise poor judgment and make mistakes.

Actually..... yes! That is all a part of our freedom. I get to make my own mistakes, rather than have someone else say what mistakes I should and should not be making.

The problem is that we no longer take responsibility for our own mistakes and judgments. We always need to find blame with someone else 'the pothole cause me to fall off and be injured so I will sue the transport authority rather than accepting that we were not riding to the conditions or were not paying attention.

This is why we have so many laws around 'Safety' to protect against the never ending stream of lawsuits.

[jules21]

The problem is that we no longer take responsibility for our own mistakes and judgments. We always need to find blame with someone else 'the pothole cause me to fall off and be injured so I will sue the transport authority rather than accepting that we were not riding to the conditions or were not paying attention.

This is why we have so many laws around 'Safety' to protect against the never ending stream of lawsuits.

that's not quite right. you don't even need to blame someone, we have a no-blame system that guarantees tax-payers will pick up the bill for any type of stupidity which results in injury.

[human909]

The problem is that we no longer take responsibility for our own mistakes and judgments. We always need to find blame with someone else 'the pothole cause me to fall off and be injured so I will sue the transport authority rather than accepting that we were not riding to the conditions or were not paying attention.

This is why we have so many laws around 'Safety' to protect against the never ending stream of lawsuits.

I completely agree. But that is another discussion in another thread.

that's not quite right. you don't even need to blame someone, we have a no-blame system that guarantees tax-payers will pick up the bill for any type of stupidity which results in injury.

Sure when it comes to ROAD accidents TAC will cover medical, lost income, etc..... for accidents. Workcover will meet medical, lost income etc... for accidents. But heaven help you if you don't fall under either of those categories.

Again the whether this is a good system or not is another discussion in another thread.

[jules21]

Nonuse of bicycle helmets and risk of fatal head injury: a proportional mortality, case–control study

[greyhoundtom]

Nonuse of bicycle helmets and risk of fatal head injury: a proportional mortality, case–control study

This study quotes the following;

For example, in Victoria, Australia, helmet use increased from 31% to 75%, and cycling fatalities
decreased by 48%, after the introduction of mandatory helmet laws, despite an increase in cycling among adults.

I'm glad they at least got that part of their research data correct.

[human909]

Nonuse of bicycle helmets and risk of fatal head injury: a proportional mortality, case–control study

Seriously?

Not wearing a helmet while cycling was associated with an increased risk of dying as a result of sustaining a head injury.

If we had helmets for drivers and pedestrians then you would see similar results.

[DavidS]

Nonuse of bicycle helmets and risk of fatal head injury: a proportional mortality, case–control study

This study quotes the following;

For example, in Victoria, Australia, helmet use increased from 31% to 75%, and cycling fatalities
decreased by 48%, after the introduction of mandatory helmet laws, despite an increase in cycling among adults.

I'm glad they at least got that part of their research data correct.

That bit about the increase in adult cyclists is a shocker. Wonder if anyone has pointed out how wrong it is.

DS

[human909]

That bit about the increase in adult cyclists is a shocker. Wonder if anyone has pointed out how wrong it is.

Well it isn't wrong. That is if you believe the "surveys".

Surveys in Melbourne also indicated a 36% reduction in bicycle use by children during the first year of the law and an estimated increase in adult use of 44%. (Straight from the abstract of the reference given.)

I think that is entirely accurate. For years Melbournites were oppressed by being FORCED to choose of what to wear on their heads while cycling. Now they have the freedom of not having to choose what to wear on their head. They are also free to choose whatever colour helmet they want as long as it has an AS/NZS 2063:2008 sticker on the inside!

[jules21]

it's obvious! there were a whole lot of bikes lying around after kid stopped riding them, and adults jumped on them!

[TailWind]

Unforeseen consequences of the MHL:

Repeal!

[human909]

http://www.uab.edu/icrc/tornado_helmet_com.html

MHL for tornado country?

[human909]

OMGosh think of the children!

http://www.theage.com.au/national/call- ... 2cmrd.html

Call for helmets amid surge in skateboard injuries

DOCTORS are calling for children to wear protective gear while riding skateboards and scooters amid fears they are causing serious injuries and, in some cases, permanent disability.

The director of trauma at the Royal Children's Hospital, Dr Joseph Crameri, said there had been an increase in the number of children with injuries from fast-moving toys, including bikes, rollerblades, scooters and skateboards, during the week after Christmas.

About 35 children came in that week compared with an average of 25 in previous years. About one in five needed to be admitted to hospital for at least one night.

Dr Crameri said although he did not know what had caused the surge, it was a good reminder for parents and children that helmets and protective gear, such as knee and elbow pads, were important.

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''It's well accepted these days that kids who get on bikes wear helmets … but when kids sometimes get on scooters and skateboards and these sorts of things, there's not necessarily the same reaction to put a helmet on,'' he said. ''If they have a decent stack, they can get significant head injuries.''

Sydney neurosurgeon Brian Owler said he was seeing too many children injured while skateboarding. He said while broken bones were common, some children had died from their injuries or sustained blood clots on their brains from head injuries.

''There was one kid who ended up in a nursing home.''

Associate Professor Owler, who helped create the Don't Rush road safety campaign, said the message that helmets were important needed to be spread by young people. ''The only way that you can get teenagers to wear helmets is if other teenagers say it's a good idea.''

NSW Commissioner for Children and Young People Megan Mitchell said it was important for children to enjoy sporting activities outside, but parents should ensure they did so as safely as possible, by wearing helmets. She said injuries relating to so-called ''pedestrian conveyances'' - skateboards, scooters and rollerskates - had increased by an average of 2.6 per cent each year in the decade since 1998-99, while bicycle-related injuries dropped about 2.9 per cent each year.

Dr Crameri said among children coming into the Royal Children's Hospital, skateboards and scooters were collectively causing about 47 per cent of injuries compared with bikes, which were causing about 35 per cent. He said parents should also be cautious with motorbikes, which caused 12 per cent of injuries and quad bikes which caused 5 per cent.

Melbourne teenager David recommended protective gear after breaking his ankle in three places on Christmas Day while riding his mate's scooter at a skate park. The 14-year-old was taken by ambulance to the Royal Children's Hospital, where he underwent surgery. He is on crutches for six weeks and has to have more surgery in coming months. There is a chance the injury will stunt the growth in one of his joints, causing further problems.

''I won't be able to do any exercise for six months after the cast comes off. It sucks,'' he said.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/call- ... z2HlblsXA7


EDIT:
Does this forum really change OM.G to OMGosh? Religious influence wow!

[Mulger bill]

Wondering how young David from the last paragraph is going to get people to strap hemlets to their ankles?

And as for you, Dr Crameri you lost ALL cred with me when you called bikes toys

[human909]

Wondering how young David from the last paragraph is going to get people to strap hemlets to their ankles?

My thoughts exactly.

[il padrone]

She said injuries relating to so-called ''pedestrian conveyances'' - skateboards, scooters and rollerskates - had increased by an average of 2.6 per cent each year in the decade since 1998-99, while bicycle-related injuries dropped about 2.9 per cent each year.

Bicycle-related injuries have been falling as kids have dropped their use of bikes, due to a combination of the restrictive helmet law and parental paranoia. Other injuries have increased as the more acceptable (to parents) and helmet-free scooters and skateboards have become more popular.

BTW, I do seem to recall that scooter use does (legally) require a helmet. Never enforced of course. Must check on it.

[human909]

She said injuries relating to so-called ''pedestrian conveyances'' - skateboards, scooters and rollerskates - had increased by an average of 2.6 per cent each year in the decade since 1998-99, while bicycle-related injuries dropped about 2.9 per cent each year.

But society had been drilling into us all these years that decreasing injury rates are important! It is all about safety improvement!!!!

Kids will be kids. I'd love to see that trend reverse and see more kids getting injured! (as peverse as that sounds) More kids being more active will improve society in so many different ways beyond simply the direct health benefits.

[DentedHead]

Kids will be kids. I'd love to see that trend reverse and see more kids getting injured! (as peverse as that sounds) More kids being more active will improve society in so many different ways beyond simply the direct health benefits.

+100

My boy (8yo) has stacked his trike and BMX several times. Each time, I asked if he OK, then complimented him on the impressiveness of his (minor) injuries, and the stoicism with which he handled himself post-crash. We then stop for a few mins and discuss how the crash happened, and I'm careful to be specific about the cause. It's no good just saying "you went too fast around the round-about" when the actual cause was "you were turning at speed when you hit that gravel patch. That made your front wheel slip out" and he now see's stacks as a kind of lesson in physics. His attitude has changed from "I can't ride that far/up that hill/through that etc" to "Lets ride to there/up that hill/through that etc".

Don't get me wrong, I'll always make sure he wears a helmet even though I oppose MHL on principle (after all, kid-stacks are pretty much what they're designed for), but kids need to get out and push their physical boundaries even more than we adults do. Holding them back for fear of what are realistically minor injuries is, to my mind, detrimental to healthy growth and experience.

Dent.

[human909]

Holding them back for fear of what are realistically minor injuries is, to my mind, detrimental to healthy growth and experience.

Surely it is better to hold them back their whole childhood from independence, speed, physical danger and the risk of injuries. Then when they become and finally turn 18 and become an adult they will be well equipped to handle a V6 on the roads. This is especially so for young males as they abhor risk taking activities of all kinds.

Recently a "facebook friend" posted about being in the UK and the joy of riding helmetless. I'm sure you can all guess at most of the responses of her well meaning Australian friends expressing care and concern. I responded in kind by posting helmetfreedom.org videos.

[Mulger bill]

Kids will be kids. I'd love to see that trend reverse and see more kids getting injured! (as peverse as that sounds) More kids being more active will improve society in so many different ways beyond simply the direct health benefits.

+100

My boy (8yo) has stacked his trike and BMX several times. Each time, I asked if he OK, then complimented him on the impressiveness of his (minor) injuries, and the stoicism with which he handled himself post-crash. We then stop for a few mins and discuss how the crash happened, and I'm careful to be specific about the cause. It's no good just saying "you went too fast around the round-about" when the actual cause was "you were turning at speed when you hit that gravel patch. That made your front wheel slip out" and he now see's stacks as a kind of lesson in physics. His attitude has changed from "I can't ride that far/up that hill/through that etc" to "Lets ride to there/up that hill/through that etc".

Don't get me wrong, I'll always make sure he wears a helmet even though I oppose MHL on principle (after all, kid-stacks are pretty much what they're designed for), but kids need to get out and push their physical boundaries even more than we adults do. Holding them back for fear of what are realistically minor injuries is, to my mind, detrimental to healthy growth and experience.

Dent.

+Even more, well put Dent

[jules21]

Don't get me wrong, I'll always make sure he wears a helmet even though I oppose MHL on principle

so you've made your own MHL in the DH household, but you oppose MHLs? isn't that a contradiction?

[Percrime]

Don't get me wrong, I'll always make sure he wears a helmet even though I oppose MHL on principle

so you've made your own MHL in the DH household, but you oppose MHLs? isn't that a contradiction?

Not so. He opposes MHL in the democracy known as 'Oz' but enforces them for the subjects in the benign dictatorship known as the DH household.

[il padrone]

so you've made your own MHL in the DH household, but you oppose MHLs? isn't that a contradiction?

A 'personal choice' decision made by Dent on behalf of his son, in his legal role as 'parent'

[DentedHead]

Percrime and il padrone pretty much have it right. To be slightly more precise, "minors" in the DH household must wear helmets. Adults can make their own decisions. As for my opposition to MHL's, it's the "M" I oppose, not so much the "H". I'd likely wear one most of the time anyway, but I'm opposed to not being allowed that simple choice, as well as the perception that cycling is dangerous that MHL's encourage.


Dent.

[jules21]

As for my opposition to MHL's, it's the "M" I oppose, not so much the "H".

but it's mandatory for your kid(s). the only difference is, it's your decision, not the govt's. is that the issue? i'm not trying to take a shot at you, just trying to define what it is about MHLs that people object to.