Diet for endurance energy levels.

[Wakatuki]

If this is in the wrong section please move it, sorry.. Didn't think halfway cafe was correct either.

Has anyone here any knowledge on diets/ nutrition?
I have been on Atkins diet since June 2012 and lost 19~20kg’s I am really stepping up the fitness now. Due to my weight loss and renewed energy I have applied to become a QLD police officer at the tender age of 39! A plan once crushed in the UK (lack of support, ex-wife!)

Up until August last year I was doing no physical exercise at all. But after getting on my bike I have found a new craving for life. The only issue I have is I burn out quick, I recover quickly too, but struggle with anything more than 6 minutes real hard running (beep test) and this is not enough to get me in.
My current cycling regime is fine I can hill climb, sitting, using 39/27 climbing Strava graded hills of 4 and 3 for about 7ks then the road runs out. I descend about 4k’s and then go again. Then descend fully to home, approximately 14ks completed. I cycle the flat at the coast 45k’s not really raising a sweat, but put me in the gym or jogging/running/swimming out of puff very quickly.

I believe my diet is to blame; I eat about 30 net carbs a day. I have read that low carbs results in low glycogen in the muscle, resulting in poor endurance. I am happy to stack in the carbs, good carbs and lower the fat content but has anyone else got more advice, I would really prefer to avoid Gatorade etc for pre/during/ post exercise work outs. I eat anything, no allergies, passed my Police PEMS last week so healthy in that regard, lung tests and everything else is good.

My Stats :
Height 188cm
Weight 99kg
Rest BPM 59~60
Chest 114cm
Gut 106 (muffin top man)
Hip 97
Strong legs (210kg) incline squat, poor upper (40kg bench) pfffttt
1k run best is 6.01 but soon dropped after that… 3.7k total 27.32, disgraceful.
20 press-ups, 70 sit-ups, Plank 2:30, Swim 500m per day in about 8 minutes as cool down.
Welcome advice from all, omnivore diet information please… not going vegan!

[Mrfenejeans]

How much do you cycle on average per week? and per day? do you ride longer on the weekends?

[Sparx]

Fading during a beep test is not lack of carbs, unless you have been exercising prior to taking the beep test. Even on a low carb diet you will have suffiecient stores for around 2 hrs of low intensity exercise.

I reckon lack of running fitness is your problem. Start on a more running specific training programme and you should see results. You can do long slow runs to get your endurance up and mix it up with some intervals, speed work and fartleks.

Beep test is not really a test of endurance, even though it may feel like it!

Build up your running slowly, it's a lot harder on the body than cycling.

[twizzle]

Yep, the protein gets converted to glucose via the liver (just at a much lower efficiency), so you still refuel the muscles - but running uses different muscles to cycling. I ride pretty hard, but I suck at stairs and running because I'm Type-I slow-twitch dominant, I don't have much Type-II anaerobic muscle.

Re. the diet, have a read of "The smarter science of slim" and "The Paleo Diet" (Cordain). But I don't think your diet is specifically holding you back, except possibly in terms of micronutrients and that's not going to cause problems with the beep test.

[Wakatuki]

Thanks for the replies, as I thought, the problem is ME..

Kick up the @rse promptly given, weekend rider only until beep test level reached, THAT IS MY PUNISHMENT

[Puffy]

The comment "unless you have been exercising before the test" is key. You need to have a full fuel tank before you start the test. With only 30g carbs and an active exercise reigime you might not be meeting this requirement if say, you've done a workout the day before. I have read a lot from AIS and they give recommended levels of carbs for a given sport (running in your case for the test).

Why not try something? It won't ruin your diet (only one meal), but it will show if the lack of carbs is to blame. The night before the practice test, have a good plate of carbs, eg pasta. Wake in the morning and you'll know you have a full tank and do the test, see if it helps. My personal experience riding 2-300kms over 3-4 days a week is that without a high carb meal the night before, my performace suffers on the following moring ride. Have a read of this, and also poke around the generic diet pages they have on offer.

http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition ... /sprinting

[moosterbounce]

I've been seeing a nutritionist recently as I was tending to bonk by Wednesday when hit the high carb and high sugar foods on thursday. Anyway, yes, there were problems with what I was eating, but also when. I prefer to exercise in the evening, yet I ate my 2 biggest meals for breakfast and lunch (often by around 10.30am) so was not fueled when exercise time came. I managed for a few days on reserves, then my body told me to revert to easy carbs as I was in desperate need.

I now eat much better and more timely, accommodating snacks morning and afternoon.

Something like this may help you.

Also, I'd give the couch to 5k program a go to build up running fitness. It's very good and aims for 3 runs a week. When you build your distance/time, you could move to a shorter "sprint" session with say 500m faster than normal and 500m slower than normal to recover, and then keep a distance session happening. If you look into the program, don't feel you have to start at week 1. Try week 3 or 4. And don't be scared to repeat a week if you aren't confident. Better to repeat than struggle and think you've failed

[Wakatuki]

Thank you for the information.
I exercise daily in the morning between 5:30 and 6:45 generally, I do not eat before I go out.
I started C25K this morning, starting at week 3 day 1, this is my level, it was hard enough to make me want to quit, but pushed on. Covered 3.7k's
Once home 100 sit-ups, no planking today! 25 press-ups and the swim. This is and has been my normal routine for a while, only increasing reps, and time spent.
Breakfast is normally 3 eggs scrambled.
Lunch a salad with, chicken, or some meat. Sometimes with cheese.
Eve meal, steak, chicken or fish with steamed or wok'd veggies.
2 protein shakes in the day to take off the snack vibes. I'm using USN IGF-1. 350ml serve.
I did cycle daily until I realized it was not helping my running, I was really hoping it would, so as already mentioned cycling will be relegated to Sunday saunters with the wife, covering about 40k's at the coast or 20-25 in the hills.

I am going to try a pasta meal Thursday night and see if Friday is any different. See below

The comment "unless you have been exercising before the test" is key. You need to have a full fuel tank before you start the test. With only 30g carbs and an active exercise reigime you might not be meeting this requirement if say, you've done a workout the day before

I work out every day

I have read a lot from AIS and they give recommended levels of carbs for a given sport (running in your case for the test).

Why not try something? It won't ruin your diet (only one meal), but it will show if the lack of carbs is to blame. The night before the practice test, have a good plate of carbs, eg pasta. Wake in the morning and you'll know you have a full tank and do the test,

Thanks Puffy..

And I am willing to drop/change diet for performance as long as weight (fat) does not increase.

[clackers]

Up until August last year I was doing no physical exercise at all.

I don't think it's diet, Wakatuki.

You will have 90-120 minutes of glycogen whatever you're eating/not eating.

To me, you haven't yet acquired an aerobic base fitness level - the volume of lower intensity activity hasn't been enough up to this point.

Maybe your heart rate gets too high, you start "burning your matches", and within a few minutes, you can't maintain what you're doing.

Get yourself a heart rate monitor and limit the amount of time you spend in the anaerobic zone to a few well chosen intervals.

You're a big boy, so to do well at a beep test, you'll need to do gym work on the legs (forget the upper body for now), improve the heart and lungs to provide the power to those legs, and yes, lose kgs so there's less of you to move.

Cycling can be fantastic for all of this. Starting the hobby in my forties, I lost ten kilos in two years without cutting back on beer, pizza and KFC.

[Wakatuki]

Maybe your heart rate gets too high, you start "burning your matches", and within a few minutes, you can't maintain what you're doing.

Get yourself a heart rate monitor and limit the amount of time you spend in the anaerobic zone to a few well chosen intervals.

You're a big boy, so to do well at a beep test, you'll need to do gym work on the legs (forget the upper body for now), improve the heart and lungs to provide the power to those legs, and yes, lose kgs so there's less of you to move.

Ok that has pretty much made my mind up, I use Strava in the background and C25K over the top of the GPS info, unfortunately I only have an iPhone 4, so not ant compatible. Looking at the Garmin 500 Edge with premium hrm... Is this going to the run suitable for measuring heart rate or do we have a cheaper option? Will be getting a 500 sooner or later, but if a watch is more suited to running for heart *alerts* I am happy to spend up to $100. Will always carry the phone as it barks training instructions at me!

*** EDIT Ignore this ^^^mate is posting me his Polar 1 watch for runnning with, good show *** I will now keep saving for the Garmin.

[twizzle]

Beep test training.

[BrisVegas]

good luck with it mate, I'm watching with interest. I'm the exact same height, weight and age, so I know where you're coming from. I've lost about 20kgs from my worst, but sounds like you and I have similar issues around lack of aerobic "fitness". I tend to bonk and cramp up in the 3rd and 4th hour of long rides.

For me, I don't think there's a simple answer other than to increase both the length and intensity of the cardio (riding) I do. Don't forget to have some rest days to give your muscles a chance to build a bit.

[iaintas]

Have a read of a book by Steve Phinney called "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" has some interesting concepts on low carb endurance athletes. I have over the last two weeks cut out cards and starchy vegetables without any issues, felt a few withdrawals every now and again, but overall i have not had any problems with endurance or speed and am currently at the lowest weight at 61kg. For me it makes sense but others i am sure will see and feel things differently.

[Wakatuki]

Carbing up will let you know how Saturday goes.
> twizzle The Beep Test link was interesting, the article did sound very familiar to my situation, almost like I have no second gear!

Have a read of a book by Steve Phinney called "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" has some interesting concepts on low carb endurance athletes. I have over the last two weeks cut out cards and starchy vegetables without any issues, felt a few withdrawals every now and again, but overall i have not had any problems with endurance or speed and am currently at the lowest weight at 61kg. For me it makes sense but others i am sure will see and feel things differently.

Will be hunting this book down unless there is a second hand copy available

[twizzle]

At the start of July, I spent the night in hospital, the next day I went proper paleo and cut out all the shite in my diet. I lost 6kg in 30 days before the digestive system caught up, I've since lost another 6kg. I have lost some sprint power, and my threshold power is down a little, but the weight loss more than compensates for the other losses. I still uses sports drinks for rides, but that is pretty much the limit of my "bad calories" intake.

From the 'second gear' point of view... I am a type-I aerobic muscle dominant. I rarely go lactic, my sprint power is non-existent, about 60% of what the other guys have. But, with lots of training, the limit of aerobic endurance goes up, so you get faster while still using the aerobic engine. Enough to pass the beep test? Don't know. If it's to weed out the unfit, that's one thing, but if they are using it to select people with good-to-excellent type-II anaerobic muscle tissue, then perhaps it's not meant to be.

[gassyndrome]

2 weeks in and I'm down 3kgs eating primal/paleo. Good stuff!

[Wakatuki]

then perhaps it's not meant to be.

It was that attitude that got me into this mess.

8 Months in weight loss and 6 into exercise and I feel better than anytime after the age of 23, very sad, but true. The carbs did nothing but the rest day made me REALLY want to exercise last night, but I saved it till this morning , should not have, this morning was a tough one. Did set PB on the one mile though, no idea how.
Cycling with the wife tomorrow so more gentle than hard work, but excercise none the less, the more she enjoys cycling the more I she understands the expense! Getting some nice feed back and support from other members, thank you. Nice to see other weight loss and other low carb users doing well. Although I stated Atkins, I am not super book strict, but that is the main path I follow. I do have a lower fat option when possible. I cheat with wine at weekends too, and if any opens Doritos or crackers with cheese or dips I succomb to carbs. I must avoid parties
Thought I missed pies until the other day, YUK. Will stick to lamb kebabs for Australia Day.
I will never be smaller than a large, it is impossible at my frame size, as my moobs have shrunk and are replaced by muscle in the shoulders and chest my shirt size is going up again, I have lost my 2nd belly too...you know, the belly under your belt, the tickle tackle obscurer!
Had a chat with police recruiting and had a good boost, the requirment on the day is 7.1, not far away. At 40 (me in late April) 6.3. which has been my average, well that is a pass. I am not happy with that though and will continue to push on to 8. So on the the day 7.1 happens be it a good day or not. Keep you posted. Keep smiling

[clackers]

All the very best with this, W ... a career change is an exciting thing!

[twizzle]

2 weeks in and I'm down 3kgs eating primal/paleo. Good stuff!

I should probably also have mentioned I'd already lost 22kg over six years by getting into cycling, and I do 13K-k's a year - the recent weight loss (12kg) has been purely diet related.


Sent from my iThingy...

[iaintas]

sorry wakatuki, i only have it as an eBook so cant give you my copy! There is some interesting research into Keto adaption in long distance endurance sports, if you think about it we are designed as long distance runners (we used to outrun prey for days on end) so why is carbo loading become the new way of doing what we have done naturally on fats and proteins for millions of years. surely we cant do better than evolution!

[gassyndrome]

2 weeks in and I'm down 3kgs eating primal/paleo. Good stuff!

I should probably also have mentioned I'd already lost 22kg over six years by getting into cycling, and I do 13K-k's a year - the recent weight loss (12kg) has been purely diet related.


Sent from my iThingy...

Oh yeah, completely understood. I have always been relatively active and even being ultra sloppy with my diet since being a teenager was only 15% bf, but i could never bring myself to truly cut out the crap. Dropped about 7/8 kg when first picked up cycling but then plateaued and got slack sometimes.

Got sick (as usual) just before xmas this year and just thought there's got to be something out the to explain why I always feel 'off'. Cue Marks Daily Apple, Gary Taubes etc: Cutting out grains/bread/pasta and any sugar (not from fruit) means no blood sugar spikes, hugely reduced hunger and a crazy sense of mental strength. No brain fade late in the afternoon is a very welcome benefit!

13k kms is very impressive!

[Wakatuki]

Update:
How am I doing, I HATE RUNNING, but I keep getting better!
I have dropped, cycling all but the Sunday jaunt with the wife.
I have skipped a few days with the storms but I was surprised at my running today, several PB’s. I live in a hilly area so I tend to zig zag around the estate avoiding them.
Now as far as diet goes, I have become very strict on my carbs reducing them to 30ish a day and feel much better for it. The strangest change was from a Liptons Green Tea with Mint half an hour before running, I seem to breathe much better.
I will be working on my speed sessions when I can run 5ks. I think that’s a mental issue though. I burn up real quick when running fast. It has helped my cycling a lot, climbing while standing and using the BIG RING tadaaa.

[Sparx]

Good stuff! Don't avoid those hills - embrace them!! Hill running is probably one of the best things you can do - sky rockets the heart rate with out too much effort. Then keep running when you get to the top - this teaches your body to recover while still keeping going.

[Wakatuki]

Update again,
Finally got a HRM. So will see how that goes, resting rate between 59-67. According to the torture instructions my moderate intensity level of 70-85% will result in a beat off 130-155, which is where I would need to sit, the aerobic zone? Correct?

My jog this morning covered 5.5k's with 3.5k's being a solid 20 minute session, my best yet. To be honest I could have gone further but I am using C25K, so I am doing as I am told! After a 5 minute walk, I was still further from home than expected so I ran then jogged alternately between lampposts until I was about 2 minutes walk from home. Feel good, the knees are reminding me of my age with a dull ache. But I think as someone has already put, the only way you get better, is to do it more!

[BrisVegas]

good on you mate. glad you're not ramping up the distance too quickly. That's where injuries start.