Maintaining higher average speeds?

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Re: Maintaining higher average speeds?

Postby Xplora » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:27 pm

I'm not sure hills are necessary, the action is simply effort to the pedals. Hills and gravity force you to push a LOT harder than the flats. You really can get the same effect from pushing 50/12 or 53/11 or whatever you have access to. Wind resistance will help the same way gravity does. The disadvantage is that the extra speed and distance required is much more difficult to get safely than the hills, I've found. Doing 50kmh is fun, but you lose a lot of room for error than 20kmh, especially when the whole point is to make you sore and tired :shock:
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by BNA » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:32 pm

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Re: Maintaining higher average speeds?

Postby poohkies » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:32 pm

Xplora wrote:I'm not sure hills are necessary, the action is simply effort to the pedals. Hills and gravity force you to push a LOT harder than the flats. You really can get the same effect from pushing 50/12 or 53/11 or whatever you have access to. Wind resistance will help the same way gravity does. The disadvantage is that the extra speed and distance required is much more difficult to get safely than the hills, I've found. Doing 50kmh is fun, but you lose a lot of room for error than 20kmh, especially when the whole point is to make you sore and tired :shock:



u would love darwin, the bike paths are long and staight for km's at a time, so no problem killing your self and not having to worry about crossing roads or bends etc
i've no idea what my ring gears are! should really look into that, i'm just try to keep my cadence in the 80's and don't change down till i'm in the 90's to keep it in the 80's if that makes sense, i've im riding with a slower rider i just keep my cadence in the high 80's low 90's to get my fitness up
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Re: Maintaining higher average speeds?

Postby boss » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:17 pm

Xplora wrote:I'm not sure hills are necessary, the action is simply effort to the pedals. Hills and gravity force you to push a LOT harder than the flats. You really can get the same effect from pushing 50/12 or 53/11 or whatever you have access to. Wind resistance will help the same way gravity does. The disadvantage is that the extra speed and distance required is much more difficult to get safely than the hills, I've found. Doing 50kmh is fun, but you lose a lot of room for error than 20kmh, especially when the whole point is to make you sore and tired :shock:


Sure, hills aren't neccessary. But they make it harder to slack off, and get you pushing lots of power through the pedals for extended periods of time.

And, regardless of training benefit, riding into a headwind sucks and is super demoralising.

Either way, I'm telling you what's worked for me. Take it or leave it, you're free stick with you're headwinds while I enjoy the view from up in the hills!
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Re: Maintaining higher average speeds?

Postby Xplora » Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:11 pm

Nah not talking headwinds. They suck the chocolate salties... there is a lot of wind you have to push at 45kmh even on a quiet day. :)
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Re: Maintaining higher average speeds?

Postby poohkies » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:46 am

Xplora wrote:Nah not talking headwinds. They suck the chocolate salties... there is a lot of wind you have to push at 45kmh even on a quiet day. :)


came live in darwin, no wind, but the air is so humid that is like pushing through a wall
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Re: Maintaining higher average speeds?

Postby g-boaf » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:14 pm

jimboss wrote:
Xplora wrote:I'm not sure hills are necessary, the action is simply effort to the pedals. Hills and gravity force you to push a LOT harder than the flats. You really can get the same effect from pushing 50/12 or 53/11 or whatever you have access to. Wind resistance will help the same way gravity does. The disadvantage is that the extra speed and distance required is much more difficult to get safely than the hills, I've found. Doing 50kmh is fun, but you lose a lot of room for error than 20kmh, especially when the whole point is to make you sore and tired :shock:


Sure, hills aren't neccessary. But they make it harder to slack off, and get you pushing lots of power through the pedals for extended periods of time.

And, regardless of training benefit, riding into a headwind sucks and is super demoralising.

Either way, I'm telling you what's worked for me. Take it or leave it, you're free stick with you're headwinds while I enjoy the view from up in the hills!


I've been doing a lot of riding into head wind recently and it is very awful. Xplora's trick of bigger gears and high speeds works well too. In my week off I've been punishing myself that way until my legs just said no more. :oops:

Hills are a lot safer than 45km/h though. :) A few repeats of a local hill usually does the trick. :)
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Re: Maintaining higher average speeds?

Postby poohkies » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:55 pm

well upping the cadence as per what jimboss said to do has done wonders, i've upped my average buy over 1.4km/h and that's mid month hopefully i'll be in the 35's for my daily commute buy 1st :)
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Re: Maintaining higher average speeds?

Postby 15wilsonwu » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:01 pm

Just a thought, would sprint training on a trainer/roller be similar or identical to sprint training on a flat outdoors?
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Re: Maintaining higher average speeds?

Postby sogood » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:07 pm

Xplora wrote:I'm not sure hills are necessary, the action is simply effort to the pedals. Hills and gravity force you to push a LOT harder than the flats. You really can get the same effect from pushing 50/12 or 53/11 or whatever you have access to...

Only if one is honest. One can't cheat when pedaling up a hill. One little slacking off and the bike will dramatically slow or stop. On the flat, it's possible to take mini breaks without losing significant speed.
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Re: Maintaining higher average speeds?

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:08 pm

15wilsonwu wrote:Just a thought, would sprint training on a trainer/roller be similar or identical to sprint training on a flat outdoors?

No... you can't really sprint train on a trainer... you won't put out anywhere near the power you will on the road, the bike doesn't move underneath you so you can't replicate road riding.
Rollers out of the saddle full blast... needs a lot of skills, but rollers probably don't have enough resistance either.Although as you are a junior your sprints will probably be 160rpm seated on restricted gears... so maybe.
Sprint training is best done on the road or track.
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Re: Maintaining higher average speeds?

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:18 pm

poohkies wrote:We don't have to many hills up here,

doing the velodrome training has really help sprints obviously, but I can hit 54 and that's about it, for about 200metres and i'm screwed, i'm been more concentrating on keeping my average over longer distances, saturdays ride was 82km at and average of 29, kept slowing everyone down as they tend to speed of and at the 50km mark they are screwed, we sat at the 30km/h mark and we maintainted that hte whole ride! was really happy

If you want to improve a heart monitor is a great thing to have, this will also tell you how your fitness is going! on my 80 km ride
i got the following info
z1 - Endurance 0 - 112 04:55
z2 - Moderate 112-148 2:20:41
z3 - Tempo 148-166 26:51
z4 - Threshold 166-184 :22 hit 170bpm
z5 - Anaerobic 184 + 00:00

I'll let your know what my heart rate is like tomorrow after velodrome training! i only do about 15km over 2hours but my god does it hurt!


Beware of your shorter intervals... VO2 up to full gas. Your HR responds too slowly to be used accurately in shorter intervals. Sprint efforts, 1 minute power, even VO2 5 minute type efforts are better done by "perceived" effort than heart rate,HR won't be anywhere near the zone at the start of these efforts. ie: you could start and finish full out Anaerobic 1 minute efforts before your heart rate even hits that zone.

On the hills vs flats... power is power, but hills will have you probably pushing a lower cadence with a higher torque, you need to replicate that a bit. The reason IMO many people get sore backs etc once they hit the hills is their core fatigues due to the higher torque they are exerting... as the core muscles fatigue during the climb the pain starts to creep in.
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Re: Maintaining higher average speeds?

Postby 15wilsonwu » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:38 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
15wilsonwu wrote:Just a thought, would sprint training on a trainer/roller be similar or identical to sprint training on a flat outdoors?

No... you can't really sprint train on a trainer... you won't put out anywhere near the power you will on the road, the bike doesn't move underneath you so you can't replicate road riding.
Rollers out of the saddle full blast... needs a lot of skills, but rollers probably don't have enough resistance either.Although as you are a junior your sprints will probably be 160rpm seated on restricted gears... so maybe.
Sprint training is best done on the road or track.


I wouldnt be able to replicate road riding but wouldnt the max power output be the same?

oh and, 160rpm seated :?
I was dreaming for more of a Cavandish sprint finish :mrgreen:
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Re: Maintaining higher average speeds?

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:56 pm

Watch a age group finish... It is a full speed spin seated... No Cavendishing for you for a wee while ;-) .
Do your sprint training on the road... It can't be done well or safely on a home trainer
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Re: Maintaining higher average speeds?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:30 am

15wilsonwu wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:
15wilsonwu wrote:Just a thought, would sprint training on a trainer/roller be similar or identical to sprint training on a flat outdoors?

No... you can't really sprint train on a trainer... you won't put out anywhere near the power you will on the road, the bike doesn't move underneath you so you can't replicate road riding.
Rollers out of the saddle full blast... needs a lot of skills, but rollers probably don't have enough resistance either.Although as you are a junior your sprints will probably be 160rpm seated on restricted gears... so maybe.
Sprint training is best done on the road or track.


I wouldnt be able to replicate road riding but wouldnt the max power output be the same?

Unlikely, since most trainers are unable to provide the equivalent inertial load that a rider outdoors would experience. Peak power comes during hard accelerations, moving a large mass from one speed to a higher speed quickly. Most trainers simply do not have the resistance curve to replicate the physics of a hard acceleration.
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