Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby gabrielle260 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:27 am

schroeds wrote:There is miles of op-ed being written right now about Armstrong, and I'm not going to add to it, well not yet :wink: What I'm thinking about is if and how these events affect our cultural standards of ethics and our view of the value of truth. If you can absolve yourself of past crimes by putting on some showbiz sparkle, 'fessing up while lookin' good, and then get on with your life with a smirk, dusting your hands with a 'job done' attitude as Lance seems intent on doing (and we've seen plenty of similarly high flying corporate mea culpas in recent years), does that not somehow reduce the implied seriousness of the fact that you treated the truth with such disregard?

Clayton M Christensen, one of the world's leading thinkers on innovation said: 'It's easier to hold to your principles 100% of the time. The boundary - your own personal moral line - is powerful if you don't cross it; if you have justified doing so once, there's nothing to stop you doing it again. Decide what you stand for and then stand for it all the time.'

It's a bit like the kids story, every time you cuss a fairy dies. Well, every time a high profile person gets away with stuff the rest of us would go to jail for, does the value of truth not die a little?

And if we end up in a society where truth is no longer important, our moral corruption leads us ... where.... :shock:

Schroeder - I think the general world wide reaction to Oprah Part 1 shows that we are not at that stage yet.
From what I have seen only Pat Mcquaid has praised Lance's performance.... The rest of the world has seen through it.
But great post, though!
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby sogood » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:16 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
sogood wrote:It's interesting how Betsy Andreu is coming out so hard over this. She must be one upset woman/wife. Why isn't Frankie coming out? Or is Betsy speaking on behalf of both of them?

What is your point???

Just an observation. Where are LA's past direct associates? Interviewing Betsy is as if the media was aiming for more sensationalistic drama than opinions.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby sogood » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:23 am

schroeds wrote:And if we end up in a society where truth is no longer important, our moral corruption leads us ... where.... :shock:

Very well said. But when Presidents and PMs can lie to the world, leading to illegal wars and innocent deaths and get away with it, what's LA's crime in comparison? And then there are the perpetrators of sub-prime and other major financial deceits, how many of them get nailed? Only when there's a focus, so comes the emotions and agitations. Such is the moral standing of our society at this point in time.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby RonK » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:27 am

toolonglegs wrote:
sogood wrote:It's interesting how Betsy Andreu is coming out so hard over this. She must be one upset woman/wife. Why isn't Frankie coming out? Or is Betsy speaking on behalf of both of them?

If you didn't believe the lie for so long you would know all about Betsy :P .

Quite so. And now LA has fessed up, denial has given way to justification.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby schroeds » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:45 am

sogood wrote:
schroeds wrote:And if we end up in a society where truth is no longer important, our moral corruption leads us ... where.... :shock:

Very well said. But when Presidents and PMs can lie to the world, leading to illegal wars and innocent deaths and get away with it, what's LA's crime in comparison? And then there are the perpetrators of sub-prime and other major financial deceits, how many of them get nailed? Only when there's a focus, so comes the emotions and agitations. Such is the moral standing of our society at this point in time.


Yep, and add Enron, Clinton, 'non-core' political promises etc etc...I totally agree...there's an insidious dishonesty 'bracket creep' at work that results in people like LA getting off all too lightly. The way I see it, it's our job not to forgive and forget. Guys like that who hold themselves up as worthy recipients of our admiration need to get the message that they must earn it and deserve it, and if we've given it to them under false pretenses, we want something back in return....we've been robbed.

A nicely executed PR job just doesn't cut it.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby sogood » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:17 pm

Part 2 of the interview...
"Oprah: Who is that guy?"

Ok, Lance Armstrong is transforming and recasting. Standard PR process.
Last edited by sogood on Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby AUbicycles » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:26 pm

Lance Armstrong on whether he wants to compete again "I think I deserve it".

This doesn't sit well with me at all... he has had a major stake in damaging the sport and the last thing I would say is that he has earn't a chance or deserves anything... the people he destroyed and disadvantaged deserve something first.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby sogood » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:36 pm

AUbicycles wrote:Lance Armstrong on whether he wants to compete again "I think I deserve it".

This doesn't sit well with me at all... he has had a major stake in damaging the sport and the last thing I would say is that he has earn't a chance or deserves anything... the people he destroyed and disadvantaged deserve something first.

Isn't that typical of so many Americans? A stereotypical American in business and show business and personal life. A cultural thing? But I agree, it doesn't sit well with my personal modus operandi and expectations.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:52 pm

<removed>

Forget the whole cheating thing and a couple years away to secretly develop better concealment methods and strategies if you're caught, make it a felony crime with real penalties for transgression.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby ozzymac » Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:19 pm

As I posted in other thread :


I am confused by everybody's reaction to this.

What has Armstrong done differently to anyone else?

He lied....

So did everyone else before they got caught.

Only difference I can see is that he managed to get away with it for longer and the process of proving it took longer.

Didn't Contador do the same thing?

How long did it take to convict him?

And what sort of punishment did he receive?

Armstrong's conviction just took longer, same offence but a much bigger punishment.

Is this just a case of the tall poppy syndrome?

Not quite sure I understand how certain riders get months of the bike and another rider gets a life ban.


Now I'm not a Armstrong fanboy, just think punishments should be the same for everyone.

If you are caught drug cheating in any sport it should be a life ban, no ifs or buts.

So have we now set an example by the Armstrong ban? Will it now be life bans for everyone?

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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby ming » Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:23 pm

Well, Well, Lance admits to doping ! I watched edited parts of the interview .Lance came across to me as if there was form of justification in drug taking, quote " i didn,t take anything that wasn,t available to other cyclists." unquote. What about the cleanskin cyclists in the Tour De France who trained their guts out to participate with no hope of winning. The cycling organisation ,the doctors ,the managers and the money men who corrupted the sport should be held to account .
When huge sponsorship money , National Pride,corporation pressure to succeed, are at stake, the sport becomes corrupt. Ok Lance did some great things for TDU ,anti cancer, livestrong, etc . But where do you draw the line between, whatever it takes to win or competing for the sake of the ideals of the sport.I fear the cycling may not recover from this exposure and it seems like the olympic cycling community might bear the brunt of the backlash. Geoff.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby schroeds » Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:23 pm

Oh boy where to start.

To keep it brief: he didn't 'just lie like everyone else'.

He gained more, he lied bigger. he led the lie. He co-erced others to dope and lie. He attacked, slandered and sued anyone who tried to tell the truth.

He got more, he should lose more.

It's a worry that Oprah's interviews have left you with the impression that lance is no different to anyone else because it means he's won.

And if he's saying he deserves to compete again, that means he also thinks he's won.

Sickening.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby ozzymac » Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:48 pm

schroeds wrote:Oh boy where to start.

To keep it brief: he didn't 'just lie like everyone else'.

He gained more, he lied bigger. he led the lie. He co-erced others to dope and lie. He attacked, slandered and sued anyone who tried to tell the truth.

He got more, he should lose more.

It's a worry that Oprah's interviews have left you with the impression that lance is no different to anyone else because it means he's won.

And if he's saying he deserves to compete again, that means he also thinks he's won.

Sickening.



BUT!!

You are missing the point.

What did he get banned for?

I thought it was for doping, drug taking etc.

It wasn't for lieing or suing etc.

All i am saying is you can't ban one doper for 6 months and then just because someone knew how to get away with it for longer suddenly ban them for life.

As I said my opinion is that dopers, drug cheats should all be banned for life not just the tall poppy of the bunch.


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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby sogood » Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:07 pm

ozzymac wrote:As I said my opinion is that dopers, drug cheats should all be banned for life not just the tall poppy of the bunch.

I would support that. But when the criminal justice system doesn't support the death penalty, this type of severe therapy is unlikely to happen either. The other aspect to recognise is the plea bargaining system in the US. It's perfectly aimed to allow smaller fries to get away for less and allow the regulators to hit their perceived big fishes hard. Is that fair? I don't know.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby RonK » Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:13 pm

ozzymac wrote:All i am saying is you can't ban one doper for 6 months and then just because someone knew how to get away with it for longer suddenly ban them for life.

As I said my opinion is that dopers, drug cheats should all be banned for life not just the tall poppy of the bunch.

He got life because he did not respond to the charges and confess and recant. It has clearly been stated that if he had, the life ban would not have been imposed.

However, I agree that all dopers should be banned for life, not only from riding, but from any kind of participation in the sport.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby schroeds » Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:54 pm

I agree too, but I also acknowledge the importance of the big fish, the public execution, the scapegoat, the show trial, the example, call it what you will. It's important symbolically, it send an unignorable message to others who might be tempted and it reassures us that something is being done.

Fair? I don't know either, but I don't think life's fair sometimes, and if you put yourself in the situation where you're the biggest benficiary of dishonesty, it's not unreasonable that you become the biggest victim when justice strikes.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby zero » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:09 pm

ozzymac wrote:As I posted in other thread :


I am confused by everybody's reaction to this.

What has Armstrong done differently to anyone else?

He lied....



He ran a 10 year cheating system that eventually involved his entire team, and even when presented with the body of evidence, he failed to show up and follow due process, instead he went to try and legally challenge the jurisdiction of USADA. Hincappie actually showed up and told the truth. There is no evidence other cheats that have suffered more minor bans were involved in team level cheating, or involving multiple riders (or even that they were any good at it).
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby sogood » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:14 pm

schroeds wrote:...I also acknowledge the importance of the big fish, the public execution, the scapegoat, the show trial, the example, call it what you will. It's important symbolically, it send an unignorable message to others who might be tempted and it reassures us that something is being done.

This is a dangerous path to take. Although it "works" and satisfies public demands, it is not proper rule of law and we all know where that leads.

An independent reconciliation commission is what cycling needs now. Dig up all dirt, implement changes (from riders to UCI) and draw a line in the sand. LA is but a part of a far larger problem in the sport of cycling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_ ... _de_France
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby scotto » Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:40 pm

schroeds wrote:There is miles of op-ed being written right now about Armstrong, and I'm not going to add to it, well not yet :wink: What I'm thinking about is if and how these events affect our cultural standards of ethics and our view of the value of truth. If you can absolve yourself of past crimes by putting on some showbiz sparkle:

Well we must be less bothered by dopers when you consider those who made deals to help get lance got only 6 months, and a doper can be cheered on and crowned ad the Olympic champion last year.
I reckon lance seems to look like he may come out of this a little better than I thought. I sure hope so. He's no different to any other cheat, and we seem happy to welcome them back to society,
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby schroeds » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:20 pm

sogood wrote:
schroeds wrote:...I also acknowledge the importance of the big fish, the public execution, the scapegoat, the show trial, the example, call it what you will. It's important symbolically, it send an unignorable message to others who might be tempted and it reassures us that something is being done.


This is a dangerous path to take. Although it "works" and satisfies public demands, it is not proper rule of law and we all know where that leads.


It's the path we're on...I'm not talking lynch mobs, I'm talking throw legal resources at the biggest offenders.....like it or not this approach is alive and well in our 'system' of justice. ..integral to it probably. The law serves the people and should be responsive to community standards, although it should not be applied capriciously in response to pubic pressure alone. There are a range of punishments available to the legal system for most crimes and I think it's reasonable that the legal system has the discretion to apply the law more assiduously in some instances.

hence the big fish showtrial. Not that it always works...OJ Simpson and president Clinton for example.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby sogood » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:31 pm

schroeds wrote:...hence the big fish showtrial. Not that it always works...OJ Simpson and president Clinton for example.

There again lies the problem. Little fries get away and super fries get away. Then why would any one want to be a middle fry? To police the problem well, there needs to be an uniformly applied rule. It can be as harsh as one wants, but it must be fairly applied. To date, the punishments have been too lenient. Those punishments are but a flea bite for present day top end riders with salaries in 7 figure terms. That risk vs reward ratio must be shifted to ensure riders/teams are risk averse.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby schroeds » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:47 pm

ah cut to the chase let's burn the bugger at the stake...worked for Joan of arc :twisted:
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby sogood » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:01 pm

schroeds wrote:ah cut to the chase let's burn the bugger at the stake...worked for Joan of arc :twisted:

LOL. That'll satisfy a lot of people both within and out of the cycling community. Is it the correct outcome? I don't think so. If one wants to uphold the rules of competition, then one better adhere and administer according to the rules.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby biker jk » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:08 pm

schroeds wrote:ah cut to the chase let's burn the bugger at the stake...worked for Joan of arc :twisted:


No need for such drastic measures. Some gaol time for perjury would be adequate punishment.
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Re: Holy showtime Batman - Lance to admit doping?

Postby vander » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:47 pm

biker jk wrote:
schroeds wrote:ah cut to the chase let's burn the bugger at the stake...worked for Joan of arc :twisted:


No need for such drastic measures. Some gaol time for perjury would be adequate punishment.


Yea a few years in jail, plus having to give every cent he earned back (as he has never had a real job and has made all his money of his fraud of a cycling career). As well as never being able to compete again.
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