Close Gear vs Wide Range

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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby Krank » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:20 pm

So, Ronk -

I notice the 11-25 does nto have the 18t cog, whereas the 12-25 does have this 18t cog.

Your advice on why the 11-25 is recommended?

Does the absence of the 18t cog affect candence consistency?

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by BNA » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:22 pm

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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby Krank » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:22 pm

sogood wrote:
Krank wrote:When I read the reviews on the Oltre XR, most users use and state the importance of using the standard crankset, and I wonder why?

No ideas. But it's common for the "mine is bigger than your" set to portray the CT as being weak and the standard setup to be the "real man's" setup. If there's no logical sense, it makes no sense.


Thanks for this. Now clearer :-)

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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby TDC » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:30 pm

Hi Krank. Have a play around with the gear calculator and will get a feel for how the ratios change.

http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/
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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:33 pm

I like close ratios on my TT bike... thats why I run a 55 up front with an 11-21, needs replacing though and I might go bigger. Yes I very rarely get in the 11 or even the 12, but it keeps the chain line very straight... and the jump between gears is tiny.
I run an 11-28 on my Road Bike ( DA 10 speed ) usually with a 53/39, but sometimes I chuck the compact on... I used to run an 11-23 or a 12-27 for racing but in the end I couldn't be bothered and I don't seem to notice the jumps too much... I expect 11 speed will fill in a gap or two.
I have spent 3 or so months training on my CX bike... 46/38 with an 11-32 on the rear... it is surprisingly good, but the jump from 12 down to 11 is huge and I seem to spend a fair bit of time there on strava runs :lol: .
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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby RonK » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:35 pm

sogood wrote:
Krank wrote:When I read the reviews on the Oltre XR, most users use and state the importance of using the standard crankset, and I wonder why?

No ideas. But it's common for the "mine is bigger than your" set to portray the CT as being weak and the standard setup to be the "real man's" setup. If there's no logical sense, it makes no sense.

Agree - there seems to be some kind of machismo associated with using the big ring on a standard chain set.

I recall reading a magazine article where the writer met some retired pro cyclists on a Gran Fondo in the Italian Alps, and was astonished at their choice of compact chain sets. Tough magazine writer he, was riding a standard chainset.
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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby RonK » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:40 pm

Krank wrote:So, Ronk -

I notice the 11-25 does nto have the 18t cog, whereas the 12-25 does have this 18t cog.

Your advice on why the 11-25 is recommended?

Does the absence of the 18t cog affect candence consistency?

Krank

If you add a sprocket at the small end, you have to loose one somewhere else. The 18 is at the big end and doesn't matter much to loose it.

I say 11-25 because I can't recall a hill in the Top End that would justify a bigger sprocket.
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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby Krank » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:56 pm

Thanks boys,

I luv the idea of having the 11t (or even the 12t) as sacrificial cogs to allow more efficient chain action!!

ROnk - do you think I could even get away with a 11-23 in lieu of the 11-25 for up here?

I intend on doing group rides in Darwin and around the bay, etc..when i do drive to Darwin for the weekends..


toolonglegs - that's a huge front chainring when compared to the standard 53t...

How will the 11s change things (when comapred to 10s) for gear ratios, etc?

What cadence do you run and maintain?

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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:04 pm

Krank wrote:toolonglegs - that's a huge front chainring when compared to the standard 53t...

How will the 11s change things (when comapred to 10s) for gear ratios, etc?

What cadence do you run and maintain?

Krank


Yeah it gets comments... but then so does Tony Martins 58 :P . I run 180mm cranks on all my bikes except my CX bike... so a slightly bigger chain ring is normal. I am not a spinner and usually sit around 88-92 av cadence.
TBH I don't know where the gaps are in my standard road set up... but as I don't really notice the gaps with an 11-28 10s... I suppose 11s will just be a little bit nicer :) .
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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby Krank » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:08 pm

Thanks mate.

So, I am guessing you are around 6'6"??

I have never really focussed on maintaining cadence, but I now realise I need to do this to improve.

Tips on mentally staying tuned when cycling to focus on that av. cadence?

I am guessing it seems too easy to watch your cadence drop and not worry about putting in the extra effort to get back to your range...??



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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:33 pm

6foot4... I don't concentrate on cadence at all... I concentrate on the energy level I want to push at and the cadence takes care of itself, just sits quite happily in that range. I use speed and percieved effort for that... having used a power meter in days gone by helps a bit with that.
Just on the TT bike I think you feel the gaps more as you are usually on flattish terrain and riding solo so you are noticing slight changes much more.
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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby RonK » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:10 pm

Krank wrote:ROnk - do you think I could even get away with a 11-23 in lieu of the 11-25 for up here?

I think you should just stick to 11-25, at least to start with. A cassette is a maintenance item anyway, so you'll need to a replacement after two chains, probably around 10,000km. You can make a decision on a smaller cassette then.

Do you have any idea of the likely routes in Darwin. It is many years since I lived there last (1984) but I can probably still pinpoint where the few hilly bits are.
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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby sogood » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:12 pm

RonK wrote:I think you should just stick to 11-25, at least to start with.

+1.
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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby Krank » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:27 pm

RonK wrote:Do you have any idea of the likely routes in Darwin. It is many years since I lived there last (1984) but I can probably still pinpoint where the few hilly bits are.


i am now in training for this event in august this year:
http://www.santostopendgranfondo.com.au/course-map.htm

These are typical of the events likely to occur this year, that i want to participate in:
http://www.darwin.cycling.org.au/defaul ... s/20317/0/

I will try to locate the group ride routes later..

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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby Krank » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:32 pm

So, I guess all of my time in the 52/11 ratio (90% of my regular ride) has not really delivered improving results because I average around 70-80RPM..

On tomorrow's 100km training ride, I will try different gears for more % of journey..with the aim of sustaining higher cadence....

Thanks boys. Really appreciate your help.


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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:37 pm

Quick question mate... when you are quoting your average cadence over a ride, is that over the full ride or a section. Go and do a 20 minute personal TT on flattish or slightly rolling ground and see what your cadence is.
Apart from that forget about cadence... throw away your cadence meter if you have to... cadence really is not important. You spin what you spin... don't sweat it. Seriously.
Work on upping your sustainable power... nearly every thing revolves around the power level you can hold over longer efforts.
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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby Krank » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:42 pm

over full ride of 97kms..

agree = "nearly every thing revolves around the power level you can hold over longer efforts."

but, I would need to install an expensive power meter to obtain the accurate power levels measurements...

otherwise, any other equipment i can use to measure the power level over longer efforts?


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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:07 pm

Only pay attention to your cadence over say a 20 min effort etc... Too much cruising, stopping etc over a whole ride to use that as a basis for your av cadence. Your cadence is obviously higher than you think so I wouldn't be worried.
On the power meter... You don't need one. Just start by doing intervals over long periods, say 20-60 minutes. Flatter open roads make it easier ( or long hills ) ... Experiment by using only your speed and how you feel... Over 20 minutes heart rate will help maybe as well... But ignore heart rate to start with. Find a speed / work level you can sustain from start to finish... Don't go too hard at the start. Just say and try and hold 32kmph for 20 minutes with out killing yourself. Keep doing it till you know how it feels. Similar on shorter efforts. Ignore everything except how it feels and how hard you think you are pushing ( your perceived effort level )... Push yourself to your limits sometimes so you know how it feels.
Keep over loading yourself for say two or three days then have quiet day... Then repeat. If you get exhausted back off for a couple of days.
You will see gains soon enough.
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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby Krank » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:00 pm

Thanks Toolonglegs.

Sound advice and will start tomorrow!

Now I assume to be holding any speed over a timer interval, gear changes will need to be made during this time to absorb the variations (such as weather, how you feel, gradient, etc..) ???

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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:34 pm

Use speed etc but it is about the exertion level... speed can vary but try and keep the power constant.
Do some searches on training with Perceived Effort.
And have fun :D .
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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby Krank » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:43 pm

thanks mate :-)

will let you know how i get on..

I had a huge pain in my upper back/neck region yesterday after riding just 40kms.

Possible causes and fixes?

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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby zero » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:42 pm

Krank wrote:Thanks Toolonglegs.

Sound advice and will start tomorrow!

Now I assume to be holding any speed over a timer interval, gear changes will need to be made during this time to absorb the variations (such as weather, how you feel, gradient, etc..) ???

Krank


Yes, I used circular courses for that - centennial or heffron. can look at the average at the end of the lap to see how well you've paced the whole lap. Heffron generally consumes a little bit of speed, because it has more than 360 degrees turning per lap, has tighter radius corners and it is less sheltered against the prevailing wind than centennial park. On a really bad day I could be doing 25 into the wind, and 45 on the backside of the course, and I'd expect a poor average time due to the fact that windy days also consume power when travelling cross wind. Really looked forward to still days where I could hope for a faster time. It was much easier to set fast averages at centennial park.

For any particular time (I was using 20 minutes), you won't get the effort right first time out. You'll probably set 2 or 3 PBs in a row as you work out how hard you can go, then it gets harder from there.
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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby Krank » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:38 am

Thanks Zero - Interesting reading.

OK - Report Out Time (just returned from my 100km ride)

First up = I am in and have been in agony for the last 2 hours due to severe body soreness, back, numb hands. My bike is now unrideable until I rectify the fitment setup.

Second - I tries those interval speed regimes, and found it was a very different riding technique to what I normally ride, I was able to hold speed until the pain in my body set in real bad, and it was just a case of limping home in survival mode...

Anyway, I did not ride in the 11t cog once this morning, which is unique for me. :shock:

Questions -
= If I speed up (due to natural declines in the road), do I force myself to slow down to maintain my set speed?
- How is this interval training married into the rides when I ride with my training partner?
- What do I need to change on my bike setup to help alleviate my pain?

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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby Krank » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:44 am

RonK wrote:
Krank wrote:Do you have any idea of the likely routes in Darwin. It is many years since I lived there last (1984) but I can probably still pinpoint where the few hilly bits are.


Hi Ronk,

WRT to that first map route I posted yesterday for the 'Around the Bay' ride in Darwin, can you actually pinpoint the highest gradient and then make a correlation back to gear ratio I need?

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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby RonK » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:23 am

Krank wrote:
RonK wrote:
Krank wrote:Do you have any idea of the likely routes in Darwin. It is many years since I lived there last (1984) but I can probably still pinpoint where the few hilly bits are.


Hi Ronk,

WRT to that first map route I posted yesterday for the 'Around the Bay' ride in Darwin, can you actually pinpoint the highest gradient and then make a correlation back to gear ratio I need?

Krank

Hmmm, can't really help with that course. The last time I went that way was back in '84 on a fishing trip to Bynoe Harbour, and as far as I can recall it was pretty flat all the way.

I'm mostly familiar with the terrain around town and along the Stuart Hwy (pretty much the only roads then), but really the hills there are insignificant - my DCC coach made me ride them all on a fixie back in my early teens. I hated the fixie, but that's how I learned to spin by the way.
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Re: Close Gear vs Wide Range

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:37 am

Krank wrote:Questions -
= If I speed up (due to natural declines in the road), do I force myself to slow down to maintain my set speed?
- How is this interval training married into the rides when I ride with my training partner?
- What do I need to change on my bike setup to help alleviate my pain?


Only use speed as a guide... it is about the power you are exerting, that is what you want to keep constant which is why a flattish area helps to start with or a long hill. You just need to learn to push yourself harder over longer periods, not so hard that you kill yourself ( yet )... you will make big gains by doing long steady intervals like that.
But they are best done solo... unless your friend wants to sit on your wheel for twenty minutes etc. Remember group rides are quite often more social than hard work ( of course depends on the group ). You only need to be doing the interval stuff a couple of times a week to start with to see the benefits.
On the pain... can't help you much. Have you suddenly upped you kms / hours?. Changed something on your bike. If your hands are numb it is usually from too much pressure on them ( bars to low, poor core strength, spending all day in the drops ). Give us some more history and we might be able to help. Bad bike fit sucks... sometimes it only shows up when you start pushing a bit harder. Sometimes bike fit isn't the problem though, you have to give your body time to adapt.
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