Old is new...

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Old is new...

Postby RonK » Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:47 pm

Gasp! Just when the disc brakes zealots have been preaching to us that discs will be the next braking advance on pro team bikes, Ridley changes to...linear-pull brakes. :lol: :lol: :lol: What's the odds others will follow?

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by BNA » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:32 pm

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Re: Old is new...

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:32 pm

Giant Propel...

I'm guessing that it's done more for the aero than braking advantages.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Old is new...

Postby RonK » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:00 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Giant Propel...

I'm guessing that it's done more for the aero than braking advantages.

Fair guess - it's no surprise that the pro teams are more interested in going faster than stopping.
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Re: Old is new...

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:52 am

There are very good technical reasons not to have road disk brakes. Listen to this velocast spinoff for such a discussion (link to mp3). It's quite eye opening.
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Re: Old is new...

Postby simonn » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:32 am

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Re: Old is new...

Postby il padrone » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:36 am

Looking at the road bike ride I posted here it's pretty obvious discs for road bikes are mostly overkill. Most notably the first thing to give out is not your brake power but rather the tyre traction. Disc brakes do nothing to help this.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: Old is new...

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:36 am



Yep, I put a link directly to that mp3.
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Re: Old is new...

Postby simonn » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:33 pm

bigfriendlyvegan wrote:


Yep, I put a link directly to that mp3.


Hmmm... was broken, for me at least. Interesting podcast. I think I shall subscribe.
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Re: Old is new...

Postby RonK » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:34 pm

bigfriendlyvegan wrote:


Yep, I put a link directly to that mp3.

No doubt these guys will be crucified for their heresy. But their comments are pretty much the same as I've made elsewhere on this forum.
The most telling comments: "a new product to empty your wallet" and "a solution to a problem that doesn't exist".
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Re: Old is new...

Postby Xplora » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:54 am

Braking tracks on your rim wear out and if I could buy a set of Zipps that would last for 10 years after replacing the rotors a few times, I would gladly pony up the dollars for Zipps or Enves. Carbon doesn't age or wear out from bumps but nothing can prevent abrasive wear from braking.

That said, I'll be waiting a long time for Zipp to put discs on a 404. A LONG time.
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Re: Old is new...

Postby Nobody » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:07 pm

RonK wrote:The most telling comments: "a new product to empty your wallet" and "a solution to a problem that doesn't exist".
As someone who has crashed into the side of a car in the wet because my brakes didn't work, I hardly think there isn't a problem rim brakes in the wet.* Initial bite is important with emergency braking. You need to be able to decelerate instantly in an emergency, not wait for the front rim to dry first.

Having said that, it really depends on your setup and circumstances. My current wet bike (when the roads are wet as I don't generally ride when poring rain) is good with V brakes and 50mm tyres. The wide tyres shield the rims to some extent from getting too wet.

I started with front disc on a road/CX bike because I had trouble getting enough leverage from the hoods to get the back wheel of the ground under braking with caliper brakes. I tried better pads but it still didn't work well for me. After using disc for a couple of years, I then decided to go back to rim brake on the front with the spare wheels and CX fork I had. This was the result, so I went back to disc.

As is the same with many things, if you don't like discs, no-one is making you buy them. Rim brakes aren't going to go extinct just because some people prefer discs on the road.


*Under certain circumstances
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Re: Old is new...

Postby DarrylH » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:44 pm

There are very good technical reasons for pro-tour riders not to have road disk brakes. For the rest of us who are not worried about aero and who don't ride on closed roads, they do have advantages. The velocast blokes did concede that they were good on "city bikes" and that is about what many of us use our road bikes for. I regularly do a 15km run to the CBD on shared paths and my time on a MTB with knobblies and discs is about 2-3 min slower than on either my 2012 CF roadie with dual pivot brakes or my 1991 steelie with dual pivot brakes (they both feel the same). The difference is that when I approach a blind 90 deg turn into an underpass I have to start braking about 5 meters earlier on the roadies, with less confidence in the result. I would estimate that on a roadie with discs, I would be about 10min faster than on my MTB. And no, I am not in a hurry but we all benefit with high intensity training rides - I always say that I am training for something more important than the Olympics - the next 20yrs of my life.
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Re: Old is new...

Postby RonK » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:02 pm

Nobody wrote:
RonK wrote:The most telling comments: "a new product to empty your wallet" and "a solution to a problem that doesn't exist".
As someone who has crashed into the side of a car in the wet because my brakes didn't work, I hardly think there isn't a problem rim brakes in the wet.* Initial bite is important with emergency braking. You need to be able to decelerate instantly in an emergency, not wait for the front rim to dry first.

Go back and read the OP properly - you will see that the subject is brakes on pro team bikes.

But anyone planning to ride a CX bike on the road would be wise to remember that these bikes and their brakes are designed for low speeds.

Oh, and if you cannot stop in the wet and have a collision, perhaps you should question your own judgement.
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Re: Old is new...

Postby Nobody » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:57 pm

Any other judgements? :roll:
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Re: Old is new...

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:39 pm

RonK wrote:Oh, and if you cannot stop in the wet and have a collision, perhaps you should question your own judgement.


Go back and read his post properly-Emergency Braking. You know, the Jeebers moment when every microsecond and centimetre counts. Maybe if Nobody and myself were mind readers we'd be able to foresee the event in time to scrub the rims dry.
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Re: Old is new...

Postby RonK » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:36 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
RonK wrote:Oh, and if you cannot stop in the wet and have a collision, perhaps you should question your own judgement.


Go back and read his post properly-Emergency Braking. You know, the Jeebers moment when every microsecond and centimetre counts. Maybe if Nobody and myself were mind readers we'd be able to foresee the event in time to scrub the rims dry.

Emergency braking: When it's wet SLOW DOWN. Exercise some judgement and ride at pace where you can stop safely in an emergency.

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Re: Old is new...

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:20 pm

I'm thinking of a front disc on my Azzurri commuter similar to what you are running Nobody. My reason is that the rim brakes are wearing the bejeezus out of my front rim. The wet rim picks up grit that ends up becoming embedded in the pads. The noise coming from the rim on one of my kangaroo populated steep descents during my commute sounds terrible. The rim is getting chewed up fast. :(
Are discs a bit more durable or cheaper to replace if not?
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Re: Old is new...

Postby Nobody » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:45 am

warthog1 wrote:I'm thinking of a front disc on my Azzurri commuter similar to what you are running Nobody. My reason is that the rim brakes are wearing the bejeezus out of my front rim. The wet rim picks up grit that ends up becoming embedded in the pads. The noise coming from the rim on one of my kangaroo populated steep descents during my commute sounds terrible. The rim is getting chewed up fast. :(
That's one reason (other than unpredictable braking) why I swapped to disc first on the MTB. Got tired of wearing away my front rim in the wet.

warthog1 wrote:Are discs a bit more durable or cheaper to replace if not?
Discs are about $30. A steel one should last a long time. A new Avid one is ~1.82mm by my digital vernier calipers. Mine is down to ~1.74mm now with about a guestimate of 2/3 to 3/4 of the pads used. Although I haven't found a minimum spec, I'd probably replace at about 1.5mm for safety which may be after two sets of pads. That might end up being a total of 7 years or more for me.

However the main reasons to change for me would be the extra wet weather safety and not having to listen to my rims grinding away.
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Re: Old is new...

Postby warthog1 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:12 am

Nobody wrote:
warthog1 wrote:I'm thinking of a front disc on my Azzurri commuter similar to what you are running Nobody. My reason is that the rim brakes are wearing the bejeezus out of my front rim. The wet rim picks up grit that ends up becoming embedded in the pads. The noise coming from the rim on one of my kangaroo populated steep descents during my commute sounds terrible. The rim is getting chewed up fast. :(
That's one reason (other than unpredictable braking) why I swapped to disc first on the MTB. Got tired of wearing away my front rim in the wet.

warthog1 wrote:Are discs a bit more durable or cheaper to replace if not?
Discs are about $30. A steel one should last a long time. A new Avid one is ~1.82mm by my digital vernier calipers. Mine is down to ~1.74mm now with about a guestimate of 2/3 to 3/4 of the pads used. Although I haven't found a minimum spec, I'd probably replace at about 1.5mm for safety which may be after two sets of pads. That might end up being a total of 7 years or more for me.

However the main reasons to change for me would be the extra wet weather safety and not having to listen to my rims grinding away.


Nice info thanks mate :) .
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Re: Old is new...

Postby mrgolf » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:59 am

I dont know if anyone here has noticed, but all accidents/ collisions occur when you dont stop in time. Sometimes it just doesnt matter how much you prepare or expect something or ride slowly. Accidents, by their very nature, happen. Riding slowly in the wet is no guarantee of safety.

As for discs, I bought a CX bike for commuting and using cable discs on the road in drenching rain is just about as good as good rim brakes in the dry. For those thinking that the brakes aren't designed for speed of a road bike, consider this: CX races are commonly held in the wet with mud and moisture regularly getting on the braking surface. Add into that the fact that CX races are typically held on courses with big terrain differences and considering that they are 'races', I think general commuting and road riding will be well within the brakes abilities. My experience, having ridden the bike on bunch rides and using it for three months for 35km per day commutes with 800m relief, is that the brakes are more than capable of handling the speed of road riding.

As for the other brakes from the original post, its kind of scary to think that pros are being expected to ride something with poorer braking ability than what is possible from widely accepted industry standard brakes. The aero advantage must be immense!!!
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Re: Old is new...

Postby Nobody » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:32 pm

mrgolf wrote:As for the other brakes from the original post, its kind of scary to think that pros are being expected to ride something with poorer braking ability than what is possible from widely accepted industry standard brakes. The aero advantage must be immense!!!
I think it's more like they can win or lose races by the tiniest of margins. They also live in a different world to us as they can go fast enough that aero makes a significant difference and cars don't suddenly pull out on them in a race.
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Re: Old is new...

Postby Xplora » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:48 am

Yep, I think you'll find the professionals have very different expectations of their bikes in the open road without support vehicles.

Don't forget, they have race bikes and training bikes as well, so they can spec them very differently to suit those conditions. Even nonpros do this (2LLegs, that's YOU)
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