city west path & othertaking

Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby uglybob » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:53 pm

ha! not late for work - took the shorter route as i was sore from my exploits at kalamunda on the MTB yesterday! :wink:
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by BNA » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:31 pm

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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby Magpie » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:31 pm

Some what different subject ,I just spent a week in Perth for work ,I'm surprised at the amount of bike riders using the footpaths in Perth CBD ,seemed dangerous for both pedestians and cyclists,is this allowed or just what is accepted ?
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wellington_street » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:42 pm

Magpie wrote:Some what different subject ,I just spent a week in Perth for work ,I'm surprised at the amount of bike riders using the footpaths in Perth CBD ,seemed dangerous for both pedestians and cyclists,is this allowed or just what is accepted ?
M


Cyclists seem to ride wherever they feel like it in Perth CBD - footpath, road, wrong side of the road, median strip/painted median, wrong way down a one-way street. You name it, it happens. Plenty of relatively law abiding ones too though!

As for the path situation - it's a grey area as to whether it is legal or not, as the law is not clear on what exactly is/isn't a shared path. It is accepted by virtue of (a) motorist attitudes (b) cyclists wanting to preserve themselves from injury when not confident to ride on the road and (c) lack of enforcement.

Note that the law is very explicit that it is not permitted to ride in either Hay St or Murray St pedestrian malls.

I don't see a problem with using the paths, as long as you are riding at walking pace when peds are around. As usual, the actions of a few ruin it for the responsible majority.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wellington_street » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm

By the way, how has nobody noticed that the thread title says "othertaking" :lol:
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby CycleSnail » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:56 am

The West Australian is running a story by Gordon Stephenson who seem to have made his own experiences on the City West PSP:

"Just like the group who forced me into a fence by refusing to slow down on the incorrect side of the cycle path between Perth and Subiaco, near a section recently enhanced with safety features, painted bright green and labelled "share zone".

Obviously I apologised to this group as clearly cycling alone on the correct, left side, of the path I deserved to be ignored and knocked off my wheels by a swarm of cycle path psychopaths coming at me head on."
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wellington_street » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:33 am

I thought it was a mildly amusing article until the bit at the end where he started banging on about path vs road. Moron. :roll:
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby redned » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:52 am

wellington:
Generally I don't think it is unclear what is a shared path and what is a footpath.
The signage and markings under the traffic code make it clear, except perhaps in areas like the Arena where I think there are temporary paths (on Wellington St!).
Another exception is near Alder Way Duncraig where new markings on the PSP say something like "slow down, pedestrians on footpath".
Hay St West Perth is bad for cyclists on the footpath. Because it is one-way west-bound, many ride the footpath instead of dropping down to east-bound Murray St.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wellington_street » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:04 pm

redned wrote:wellington:
Generally I don't think it is unclear what is a shared path and what is a footpath.
The signage and markings under the traffic code make it clear...


Take a look at the wording of the law (Road Traffic Code 2000), from the dictionary at the front:

"shared path means an area open to the public (except a separated footpath) that is designated for, or has as one of its main uses, use by both the riders of bicycles and pedestrians..."

Given that children under 12 years are permitted to ride on any footpath, except where specifically prohibited by 'no bicycles' signs, that would indicate that 'riders of bicycles' are one of the main uses of any path and therefore any footpath is also a shared path.

I'm not a legal professional, and as far as I am aware this hasn't been tested in a court of law, which is why I said it is unclear what is/isn't a shared path.

What muddles things further is when Local Governments build paths for the use of bicycles and pedestrians but do not install the appropriate signs (very common) or the signs go missing over the years (very common) or they are contradictory to each other (unfortunately also common) - are they shared paths or are they not?
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby Aushiker » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:29 pm

For clarity of the discussion, I would suggest full quoting of the relevant definitions might be of helpful. The WA Road Traffic Code 2000 in regulation 3 states that a

shared path means an area open to the public (except a separated footpath) that is designated for, or has as one of its main uses, use by both the riders of bicycles and pedestrians, and includes a length of path beginning at a “shared path” sign or “shared path” road marking and ending at the nearest of the following:

(a) an “end shared path” sign or “end shared path” road marking; (b) a “no bicycles” sign, or a “no bicycles” road marking; (c) a “bicycle path” sign; (d) a carriageway; (e) the end of the path;


and a illustration of the signs are also given as part of the definition.

A footpath in regulation 3 is defined as

footpath means an area that is open to the public that is designated for, or has as one of its main uses, use by pedestrians.


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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby redned » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:13 pm

Which I think is clear, until a council then paints a sign on a shared path describing it as a footpath.

On topic: last night at City West I saw two cyclists riding two abreast past the new and they split the traffic isalnd between them.

It is interesting that they have removed the pedestrian crossing markings. I am not sure how that makes it safer for pedestrians.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby rolandp » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:11 pm

Detour signs came down yesterday so one would assume the work is completed in this location.

Unfortuantly not, head a little east and half the psp is blocked due to sewerage works. No warning signs, no notices how long it will take.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:54 pm

wellington_street wrote:As for the path situation - it's a grey area as to whether it is legal or not, as the law is not clear on what exactly is/isn't a shared path. It is accepted by virtue of (a) motorist attitudes (b) cyclists wanting to preserve themselves from injury when not confident to ride on the road and (c) lack of enforcement.

Note that the law is very explicit that it is not permitted to ride in either Hay St or Murray St pedestrian malls.

Legally I am OK to ride paths but I am still curious. I thought it was clear that cyclists over 12 yo could not ride on paths except those signed accordingly. As such it would seem to be illegal to ride on CBD paths. Am I missing something?

Re Murray St and Hay St, I have often wondered myself whether it was legal. Can you give me some basis? I have never seen any cops, of which there is a constant stream in those places, even giving a glance to a cyclist.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby mikedufty » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:52 pm

redned wrote:It is interesting that they have removed the pedestrian crossing markings. I am not sure how that makes it safer for pedestrians.

I suppose it reflects the reality of the situation better. I mostly gave up stopping for pedestrians there, because pedestrians were so used to bikes not stopping that you'd get a stalemate with everyone stopped wanting the other to go first.

I then figured out it was better for me to get off the path and take the road around that section anyway.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby wellington_street » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:03 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
wellington_street wrote:As for the path situation - it's a grey area as to whether it is legal or not, as the law is not clear on what exactly is/isn't a shared path. It is accepted by virtue of (a) motorist attitudes (b) cyclists wanting to preserve themselves from injury when not confident to ride on the road and (c) lack of enforcement.

Note that the law is very explicit that it is not permitted to ride in either Hay St or Murray St pedestrian malls.

Legally I am OK to ride paths but I am still curious. I thought it was clear that cyclists over 12 yo could not ride on paths except those signed accordingly. As such it would seem to be illegal to ride on CBD paths. Am I missing something?


Since cyclists under 12yo are one of the main users intended for the path, does that make the path a shared path? (ref discussion above and refer to the traffic code)

ColinOldnCranky wrote:Re Murray St and Hay St, I have often wondered myself whether it was legal. Can you give me some basis? I have never seen any cops, of which there is a constant stream in those places, even giving a glance to a cyclist.


Reg 292 (and yes, 'drive a vehicle' does include 'ride a bicycle' in the road rules).

Restrictions on using footpaths are also almost never enforced by police either...
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:23 pm

Doesn't a uni fall into the "wheeled recreational device" category?
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby Baalzamon » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:48 pm

I was out City West today and I saw 2 riders pull that stunt go on the other side. 2 riders infront me did the correct thing and stayed to the left side of the island and not take the "good line" on the right side of the island.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby stealthbike » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:07 am

Rode this path to work this morning. At City West between the two slow points, I encountered a rider coming the other way down the hill doing at least 35km/h on his tri bars (ie not near his brakes). I yelled out to him to slow down but to no effect. At this time another cyclist waiting at the train station yelled out "why?" :shock:
Up the next hill, I was drafted by a petty fit guy on a fixie who was not wearing a helmet. He soon passed me but later he slowed and I watched him remove his backpack and start texting on his phone. Of course he was wobbling all over the path whilst doing this. :shock:

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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby eldavo » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:38 pm

Bump for a thread I pointed a rider to after making a stupid head on move at the new chicanes.

The long weekend must have disoriented me, forgot my water bottle, and that I opt out of futile efforts like asking people if they realise what stupid Showtime they're doing.
This guy in black roadie kit with yellow flashes (MarkG's guy? ;) left Thomas Rd. to take this path from the bridge downhill eastbound, freewheeled behind me as I passed the school kids going uphill, but he wasn't happy rolling through the give way that I was looking out ready on the brakes for the cyclist entering the chicane from the train station.
Flash Gordon in question passes in the oncoming lane of the slow chicane at speed. I only just had vision of the rider entering as the bushes cleared and was ready on the brakes if I wasn't there a moment earlier, other rider oblivious to it all head down fast as he can.

Ironically he wasn't going that quick and I caught up to him prior to the old sewage works, passed him, and crossed Market St. where it was a good chance to ask if he realised what he was doing. He ignored me no look no response, I wondered if he was a genuine small European visitor (whom a Dutchie tells me ride on right side, so us 'keep left' local crowd are screwed), but on repeat he acknowledged with arrogance "yes, thanks" and I pointed him to the site and this thread to look at the collissions of this area from people like him, and the rider now quadraplegic from head on with another rider (Kwinana PSP incident, possibly another thread). No surprise he was an arrogant and wanted to rush through the next 3 red light crossings around Wellington towards Murray St. I guess it's not pleasant to be told how you're being a d!ck but it's a small inconvenience compared to the pain being a royal d!ck can cause.

He's not alone, a plain clothes woman in a rush down the Powis St. corkscrew north bound at speed cut the blind T-junction. I saw her front wheel change line at speed towards head on road traffic at 60kph bend if she went wide off the path... she didn't lose it and I saw her from bridge on west side bend, probably cutting that blind one in the oncoming lane too =P

Talking with a bloke at work about unrelated stuff reminded us of the 80% generally honest do right 'when it's convenient to me' when it rarely goes wrong people look back and say 'good bloke bad day'. I cringe at all the stupid Showtime I've done that comes to mind and think we're only blessed with a lack of population density. The difference between these two incidents today only being a forum post and not hospital trip or worse wasn't skill, just 5 metres of time and space luck.

It's also a reminder to constructively have some of those main roads simple guides to shared paths and cycling and a custom few 'digests' for topics with the crash reports from victims, ranging in tone to reflect the circumstance to hand out to the arrogant pricks who don't want to listen, but might be able to read it before wiping their arse with it. Stuck to a page of sandpaper be a nice touch with a parody of Reduce reuse recycle...
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby rolandp » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:20 am

A bump also to the installation of a PSP diversion later this week at this location, down near the sewage works (aka around where we cross Market St). From MainRoads:
PSP Market Street
Market Street
Ongoing - 8 March 2013
Diversion of PSP

Otherwise, check out my Google Map which has all the diversions I know recorded with locations marked.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:52 am

Mulger bill wrote:Doesn't a uni fall into the "wheeled recreational device" category?

Yeah. Most of teh discussion is of noconsequence to me as a wheeled recreational device is actually a sub-class of pedestrain. With the privelege of often being able to choose to use the road OR the path as I see fit.

I am still not sure if malls are treated as paths. Certainly no-one pulls over any cyclists in those in the Perth CBD.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby Bakks » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:11 pm

Worst hazard I've come across is not cyclists being too "daring" with their overtaking, but the bloke dressed in dark clothes passed out on the PSP at 5 am on Saturday morning. Very, very nearly cleaned him up.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby 88mph » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:33 pm

Catching the train to work today, I had one of my first experiences as a pedestrian at the intersection in question.

I noticed a rider heading downhill along the PSP toward the city, he was flying. I though he would start to slow and give way so I proceeded to cross with other pedestrians. I was wrong.

This rider flew through the chicanes and was gunning straight for me, almost trying to intimidate me. I decided to move my ass off the path to avoid collision, and would you imagine, he actually moved with me and extended Hus elbow with the intention of hitting me. Lucky for both of us he missed. The best bit was when he turned back to have a go at me, shaking his head.

Little does this guy know I'm a fellow rider and consciously do my best to give all cyclists the maximum room.

These guys give us a bad rep.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby eldavo » Sat May 25, 2013 11:00 pm

Some old footage on slightly damp paths home, this guy in front with flashing tail light westbound goes for the wrong way around island on east end of City West train station, except there's an oncoming rider downhill about to take that space, so in changing his mind swerves back near missing the island curb, and testing the grip enhanced green paint in the crossing zone.

It doesn't make any mathematical journey speed sense, physiological terrain/momentum/fatigue sense, nor self preservation or common sense... but none of those are mandatory to be a clown on a bike.

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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby Thoglette » Sun May 26, 2013 9:55 pm

88mph wrote:These guys give us a bad rep.


Crossing Wellington Street to get to the train station and nearly got cleaned up by a "dick" on a rainy day. Lights must have been red for 15-20 seconds - I'd love to have heard the excuses but fortunately he missed me and the rest of the pedestrians. By bugger all.

Have to say: Single speed, no helmet.
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Re: city west path & othertaking

Postby rolandp » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:12 am

Did anyone else get videoed this morning at this location? Guy set up with a video camera on a tripod filming the east most crossing.
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