Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thread)

Equipment and On Road Behaviour, Laws and Rules. Cycling Promotion and Advocacy

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Ross » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:11 am

il padrone wrote:I took a fall on the weekend. Hit my head. Was unconscious for 1-2 minutes. The brand new helmet is busted :(

Yes it saved me from possibly more severe injuries. I have a broken collar-bone and possible cracked ribs. Still do not support MHL. I choose to wear a helmet. I am a high mileage rider (10-12k per year) and the fall happened while descending a gravel road out of the bush into Apollo Bay - not your garden variety 'ride to the shops'. I guess it can be seen as greater risk-taking, descending a gravel road at 30kmh. I accept that risk and deal with it. Abolishing the MHL will not change that.


Bad luck on your crash, good to hear you live to ride another day.

I still don't understand why you seem to think MHL are so bad when you admit that you regualrly wear a helmet and the helmet possibly saved you from more serious injuries when you crashed. OK, you were descending a gravel road at 30kmh, but not all crashes happen at highish speeds on gravel roads. You can just as easily have a bad crash at walking pace on a smooth sealed surface (like I have had) .
Image
User avatar
Ross
 
Posts: 3675
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:53 pm

by BNA » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:18 am

BNA
 

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:18 am

AndyTheMan wrote:It would be like having mandatory enclosed leather workboot legislation - thats all fine and dandy if you are on a building site, or working outdoors, or even bushwalking. but wouldn't it become a silly law if you are just wandering across the road to the beach, or even taking the bins out.....


You went near the WATER !!! :shock:
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18185
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby outnabike » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:20 am

From that report

Asked why cyclists without helmets appeared to take other risks, Dr Olivier said that while his study did not address this question, the answer might be: ''Someone who is willing to disobey the law by not wearing a helmet might be more willing to disobey other laws.''

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/cyclists ... z2JyFJB5g3

There could be some truth in this.
I notice most burglars involved in ram raids, don't wear helmets. Folks walking blindly along, walking into walls whilst on a phone aren't wearing appropriate safety gear.
They then get on the bike and flout the law.
If it is a fact that more head injuries are caused in cars we should make the MHL applicable to motorists as well. They aren't putting in air bags at a cost of thousands for nothing after all.

And what of the studies that were supposed to show that helmet wearers were the risk takers thinking they were invincible.
For me it's all pretty hard to keep up with.
outnabike
 
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:53 pm
Location: Melbourne Vic

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:20 am

Ross wrote:I still don't understand why you seem to think MHL are so bad when you admit that you regualrly wear a helmet and the helmet possibly saved you from more serious injuries when you crashed.

You really misunderstand the concept of choice that much ??

Ross wrote:You can just as easily have a bad crash at walking pace on a smooth sealed surface

You can just as easily have a bad fall (with head injuries) walking along a path, as many people do. Thus why don't you support MHL for all peds??
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18185
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:27 am

It really is a little scary. I especially find humorous how he speaks about bike share in terms of it being a problem. :shock: :lol: Further so he speaks of a person with shattered bones and a shattered helmet in but no brain injury as somehow supporting of his case. Of course lets not consider how it came to be that a car hit the cyclist. :roll: Surely he should flick back a few slides and considered the circumstance in which he dismissed he European experience!

Like il padrone I often happily choose to wear helmets. I do so in skiing, rock climbing and kayaking. I do so in mountain biking. I had a small tumble the other week mountain biking, kinda rare for me. I tucked my head and rolled. Without a helmet I would have been fine, with a helmet I was still fine. But certainly my helmeted head did contact the ground.

But these are all higher risk sports, lots of people are happy with helmets for such activities. When it comes to commuting most people don't want to face higher risks and they don't want to wear helmets.

Ross wrote:I still don't understand why you seem to think MHL are so bad when you admit that you regualrly wear a helmet and the helmet possibly saved you from more serious injuries when you crashed.

It really does seem like you have little concept of allowing and accepting other peoples' choices. Why should we deny people such a basic choice? My personal choices should have little bearing on whether or not i agree with the basic freedom of choice. I have no desire to 'sleep' with another man but I certainly don't think that it is just to deny other men the freedom to do so. :|
human909
 
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 am

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Percrime » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:47 am

il padrone wrote:I took a fall on the weekend. Hit my head. Was unconscious for 1-2 minutes. The brand new helmet is busted :(

Yes it saved me from possibly more severe injuries. I have a broken collar-bone and possible cracked ribs. Still do not support MHL. I choose to wear a helmet. I am a high mileage rider (10-12k per year) and the fall happened while descending a gravel road out of the bush into Apollo Bay - not your garden variety 'ride to the shops'. I guess it can be seen as greater risk-taking, descending a gravel road at 30kmh. I accept that risk and deal with it. Abolishing the MHL will not change that.


Yike. And in the last month thats the 5th. (yes 5th) broken collar bone I know off, And I have been present at 3 of em.
Percrime
 
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:41 am

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:57 am

Percrime wrote:Yike. And in the last month thats the 5th. (yes 5th) broken collar bone I know off, And I have been present at 3 of em.

Mandatory shoulder pads for all :o That'll fix it.

Image
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18185
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby twizzle » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:50 am

human909 wrote:
twizzle wrote:I looked, but I couldn't find that in the study.

"Belief based" vs "Evidence based" mean anything to you?

I wouldn't be turning to that study for many conclusions that are evidence based twizzle. Surely if you were being honest to yourself you would recognise the flawed conclusions?

But no, you seem intent on point scoring pettiness rather than addressing the issue. :roll:


I'll leave it up to academia to pull the study apart. And not point scoring, just pointing out that pulling "evidence" out of thin air isn't helping the discussion... and never has.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Xplora » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:44 am

Ross, you really must READ the responses. If you cannot understand why someone would make a choice different to you, "I" cannot understand how someone with a reasonable grasp of English like yourself can fail to process a simple explanation that has been reiterated DOZENS OF TIMES. This has been specifically directed at you as well. If you are a sook, and refuse to ride without a helmet, "that is your choice". I think it is a daft choice. But you are entitled to make it, and it doesn't impact on me. The reverse also applies.

If you want to be obtuse and talk about impacts on social costs from my lack of helmet, I will throw that back at you - your obsession with helmeted riding is actually hurting cyclists as car drivers falsely believe that the act of riding a bike causes brain trauma, rather than the act of being hit by a car and forced off the bike by 2 tonnes of alloy. The social impact of crappy drivers is FAR FAR FAR higher than the social impact of nude nuts. :idea:

So let's avoid being obtuse, because there are two sides to every argument, and we need to accept the research at hand. More riders equals safer roads. Helmets improve individual consequences, but influence people to simply not ride, creating a net loss for the remaining cycling population.

I fail to see the value in research like the SMH article reports, when there is no attempt to address the more controversial research such as "more riders equals more safety for cyclists". Research is most valuable in the counterintuitive results, not the confirmation of common sense.
Xplora
 
Posts: 5625
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby twizzle » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:08 am

Xplora wrote:your obsession with helmeted riding is actually hurting cyclists as car drivers falsely believe that the act of riding a bike causes brain trauma, rather than the act of being hit by a car and forced off the bike by 2 tonnes of alloy.


Statement based on some research or personal opinion? Adding "IMO" or "IMHO" would help distinguish when you are making stuff up.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:12 am

Xplora wrote:because there are two sides to every argument, and we need to accept the research at hand.

Correction to that. We need to question and critique any research conclusions to establish their validity.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18185
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby zero » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:40 am

il padrone wrote:
Xplora wrote:because there are two sides to every argument, and we need to accept the research at hand.

Correction to that. We need to question and critique any research conclusions to establish their validity.


The validity of the conclusion (that cyclists who don't wear helmets are likely to take more risks) is entirely valid, but that is correlation, and not causality, ie helmets do not cause helmet wearers to take less risks, risk averse people are simply more likely to wear helmets. ie I wouldn't even bother to read the study to try find errors with that, because I feel its extremely unlikely to be an incorrect conclusion.

Another detected correlation is the tendency for people that have lit lights on their cycles to have less severe accidents (and probably less accidents) during broad daylight, because fitting lights is correlated with peoples ability to perceive risks, as is the frequency and severity of their accidents.

As it turns out, dutch accident and head injury rates for cycling without helmets (by trip or by kms) are vastly better than ours with helmets, which is an example of why offloading what should be infrastructure safety to PPG is a poor governmental level practice.
zero
 
Posts: 2617
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:54 pm

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:44 am

zero wrote:The validity of the conclusion (that cyclists who don't wear helmets are likely to take more risks) is entirely valid, but that is correlation, and not causality, ie helmets do not cause helmet wearers to take less risks, risk averse people are simply more likely to wear helmets

However they are also drawing the reverse conclusion - that people who don't wear helmets take more risks, and using it as an argument to mandate helmets. If all those Dutch cyclists suddenly wore helmets (by some miracle) this will not make them any safer cyclists. Safety comes from your attitudes and behaviours, not from what you wear.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18185
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby twizzle » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:53 am

zero wrote:...which is an example of why offloading what should be infrastructure safety to PPG is a poor governmental level practice.

+1. But, as a plus, it's made decent helmets very affordable.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Xplora » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:47 pm

twizzle wrote:
zero wrote:...which is an example of why offloading what should be infrastructure safety to PPG is a poor governmental level practice.

+1. But, as a plus, it's made decent helmets very affordable.

I doubt Australian laws or standards have had significant impacts on the global helmet supply picture. I'm guessing that the UCI has had more impact with that stuff.

il Pad, by all means, question the research, but accept it for what it is. In a certain set of conditions, a certain result will be found. Given that most helmet related research is intended to defend the helmet, I'm sure that most of the published work will reinforce defence of the helmet. The conclusions we derive can be very different to those drawn by the researchers. Very well worth bearing in mind that the recommendations by researchers are essentially IRRELEVANT to the paper, because they are always based on opinion. There are facts, there are reasoned conclusions, and there are opinions about how those conclusions should be applied. They are also made in a vacuum; they don't account for 3rd party effects (such as more riders = more safety). The key is more research to control for more 3rd party effects. Twizzle, my opinions about the research data are just as valid as the researcher's, because there is no training necessary to interpret a correlation. (BTW, glad you're OK. Black outs SUCK)

Zero, you're bang on the money with the comments about correlations. There are a truckload of correlations with any safety based comparison, because it doesn't function in a vacuum. The kinds of people who will use a light in the daytime have a different safety profile. It also ignores basic facts like "car drivers have a freaking responsibility to see the traffic, even if it is hard to see!" which has an impact. It deflects basic responsibility onto the victim sometimes.
Xplora
 
Posts: 5625
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:01 pm

twizzle wrote:I'll leave it up to academia to pull the study apart.

'Academia' has no interest in in pulling the study apart. There is no funding in tearing apart government funded "road safety" research. To call any of this academic research is a stretch.

twizzle wrote:And not point scoring, just pointing out that pulling "evidence" out of thin air isn't helping the discussion... and never has.

Nobody is pulling "evidence" out of thin air. The quote you pick on wasn't even presented as "evidence".
human909
 
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 am

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Ross » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:53 pm

Xplora wrote:Ross, you really must READ the responses. If you cannot understand why someone would make a choice different to you, "I" cannot understand how someone with a reasonable grasp of English like yourself can fail to process a simple explanation that has been reiterated DOZENS OF TIMES. This has been specifically directed at you as well. If you are a sook, and refuse to ride without a helmet, "that is your choice". I think it is a daft choice. But you are entitled to make it, and it doesn't impact on me. The reverse also applies.

If you want to be obtuse and talk about impacts on social costs from my lack of helmet, I will throw that back at you - your obsession with helmeted riding is actually hurting cyclists as car drivers falsely believe that the act of riding a bike causes brain trauma, rather than the act of being hit by a car and forced off the bike by 2 tonnes of alloy. The social impact of crappy drivers is FAR FAR FAR higher than the social impact of nude nuts. :idea:

So let's avoid being obtuse, because there are two sides to every argument, and we need to accept the research at hand. More riders equals safer roads. Helmets improve individual consequences, but influence people to simply not ride, creating a net loss for the remaining cycling population.

I fail to see the value in research like the SMH article reports, when there is no attempt to address the more controversial research such as "more riders equals more safety for cyclists". Research is most valuable in the counterintuitive results, not the confirmation of common sense.


I have READ all the responses (great cure for insomnia BTW :roll: ). il padrone and others that are opposed to MHL claim they regualrly wear helmets when cycling, they just don't like being told they HAVE to, by law. Without wanting or meaning to get personal this sounds like a childish tantrum. I was a bit like that when MHLs first came in and I rode around for a couple of years or so without a helmet but eventually like to think I matured and decided I should start wearing one. They don't cost that much (like most things, you can spend a lot of money on them if you want), they are a small inconvenience granted (in the same way a blowfly is, so not much really) but you never know when you might need it (as I have had a couple of times over the years).

Sorry if I'm being obtuse. As I've mentioned in previous posts we need laws to protect us from ourselves. Should we abolish compulsary seat belt laws. maybe speed limits too, it's inconvenient to drive at 100km/h, I would much prefer to do 200km/h. What about gun laws. Having quite lax gun laws doesn't appear to work in America.

I don't expect to sway anyone to my way of thinking, just putting my POV across. Not obsessive. We can count my posts on the subject and then count yours, il padrone, human909 and yours and see who is obsessed.
Image
User avatar
Ross
 
Posts: 3675
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:53 pm

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby il padrone » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:11 pm

Ross wrote: They don't cost that much (like most things, you can spend a lot of money on them if you want), they are a small inconvenience granted (in the same way a blowfly is, so not much really) but you never know when you might need it (as I have had a couple of times over the years).

Spoken from the point of view of the cycling enthusiasts that you and I are. In order to get cycling to become a meaningful urban transport mode we need non-enthusiasts.... ordinary people to take up cycling en-masse. The requirement to wear a helmet (mandated) is a simple deterrent. They cost a bit extra, they are inconvenient (need to be carried, stored, looked after), they mess people's hair up and make people feel hotter. This is a bother for many folks.

Ross wrote:Sorry if I'm being obtuse. As I've mentioned in previous posts we need laws to protect us from ourselves. Should we abolish compulsary seat belt laws. maybe speed limits too, it's inconvenient to drive at 100km/h, I would much prefer to do 200km/h. What about gun laws. Having quite lax gun laws doesn't appear to work in America.

We need laws to protect us from ourselves, only if there is a demonstrated safety problem, and the laws will be the most effective way to produce a net social benefit. Car seat-belt laws, speed limits and even gun laws (in Australia) can be demonstrated to have achieved these criteria.


BTW, the USA has gun laws? Coulda fooled me :|
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18185
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:10 pm

I don't put the rubbish out, my son doe :shock: :shock: :shock: OOOOOMMMMGGGG THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
Image

Anybody know of an independent study on comparative head injury rates for mundane tasks?
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011
User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 25567
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:58 am

Ross wrote:il padrone and others that are opposed to MHL claim they regualrly wear helmets when cycling, they just don't like being told they HAVE to, by law. Without wanting or meaning to get personal this sounds like a childish tantrum.

Ross, stop and think about it for a second. Surely you recognise that allowing choice in life is a good thing? Or do you believe that we should have our lives dictate to us by the government? Il padrone and others aren't being childish they are supporting FREEDOM and wish to encourage cycling to a wider audience.

Ross wrote:As I've mentioned in previous posts we need laws to protect us from ourselves.

No we don't. Saying that we need laws to protect us from ourselves says that the government knows more about keeping me safe than I do and has more incentive to keep me safe than I do. It doesn't. Speed and guns controls and many other laws are sensible because they protect you from others.

Also following the argument that we need laws to protect us from ourselves most higher risk sports wouldn't exist or be so crazily regulated that it would be insane.
human909
 
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 am

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby twizzle » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:09 am

human909 wrote:
twizzle wrote:I'll leave it up to academia to pull the study apart.

'Academia' has no interest in in pulling the study apart. There is no funding in tearing apart government funded "road safety" research. To call any of this academic research is a stretch.

Yes - it's all a conspiracy!

twizzle wrote:And not point scoring, just pointing out that pulling "evidence" out of thin air isn't helping the discussion... and never has.

Nobody is pulling "evidence" out of thin air. The quote you pick on wasn't even presented as "evidence".

In the context of Belief vs Evidence. You, once again, made something up and presented it as a fact. You could be right, but given how hard it is to get stopped by the police, you could also be wrong. Stop presenting opinions as facts!

Edit:typo. Edit2: Bloody unbalanced quotes!
Sent from my iThingy...
Last edited by twizzle on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby twizzle » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:14 am

human909 wrote:Surely you recognise that allowing choice in life is a good thing?

Has it ever occurred to you that you lead a sheltered life?

A mate a work suggests you go and live in Singapore for a while. Look into why they are a nanny state. Ask why it is necessary to have sensors in lifts in office buildings to catch people urinating.



Sent from my iThingy...
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby human909 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:21 am

twizzle wrote:
human909 wrote:
twizzle wrote:I'll leave it up to academia to pull the study apart.

'Academia' has no interest in in pulling the study apart. There is no funding in tearing apart government funded "road safety" research. To call any of this academic research is a stretch.

Yes - it's all a conspiracy!

No it isn't a conspiracy nor has it been suggested as such. It is simply true that the government does fund organisations and research that whose goals are to increase regulation not decrease them.

twizzle wrote:In the context of Belief vs Evidence. You, once again, made something up and presented it as a fact.

You keep claiming this like a broken record. Yet somehow ignore that the research presented has only a few few biased statistics to lead to false conclusions. This is not "evidence". In contrast most of Europe is direct evidence that life without MHL need not be a dire thing for cyclists. :wink:
human909
 
Posts: 4728
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 am

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby wilddemon » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:39 am

human909 wrote:Also following the argument that we need laws to protect us from ourselves most higher risk sports wouldn't exist or be so crazily regulated that it would be insane.

You mean like base jumping?
http://y-community-number-84.blogspot.c ... ld-be.html
Train surfing?
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/teen- ... 1yyol.html
Bull fighting?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z2K3jOShbp
wilddemon
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:09 am

Re: Mandatory Helmet Laws & stuff (Was One & ONLY Helmet Thr

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:46 am

They're sports are they? :?

Two are illegal and one is revolting (unless elToro is victorious).

Next non sequitur...
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011
User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 25567
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

PreviousNext

Return to Cycling Safety and Advocacy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU



InTouch with BNA
“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter