Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby familyguy » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:42 pm

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by BNA » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:44 pm

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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:44 pm

VRE wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:BTW ...
They may give you more brute force strength and endurance, but they won't do your thinking for you.


Tell that to Floyd Landis on stage 17... when you are feeling that good you don't need to think. " this looks like the move of a desperate man or superman "

OK, I've already admitted I'm no expert here, so no further comment from me, because it seems that everything I say will get dissected and methodically rebutted :( .


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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby sogood » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:50 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Endurance sports that don't need a huge amount of talent / skills are always going to have a problem with drugs... ALWAYS. An endurance cyclist's body is just a motor... bigger motors win more races.
If you gave me a good PED program I could jump up a grade or two easily enough... give me all the drugs in the world and I would still be crap at tennis.

Good one 2LL! 2LL for TdF2013! And I agree with your point.
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby macca33 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:52 pm

I think Col makes some fairly valid points to be honest.

Norbs, I read your blog and whilst I agree that cyclists have been highlighted - it is for very good reason. Other sports will catch up, but all it sounds like in the blog - at times - is sour grapes.

I'll keep riding the pushy, whether the professionals cheat or not - I don't base my entire life upon what they do, rather, I enjoy my cycling and the satisfaction that it brings personally.

cheers
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby Nobody » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:08 pm

VRE wrote:OK, I've already admitted I'm no expert here, so no further comment from me, because it seems that everything I say will get dissected and methodically rebutted :( .
You're getting the hang of it then. :wink:
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby norbs » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:16 pm

macca33 wrote:I think Col makes some fairly valid points to be honest.

Norbs, I read your blog and whilst I agree that cyclists have been highlighted - it is for very good reason. Other sports will catch up, but all it sounds like in the blog - at times - is sour grapes.

I'll keep riding the pushy, whether the professionals cheat or not - I don't base my entire life upon what they do, rather, I enjoy my cycling and the satisfaction that it brings personally.

cheers



Point taken. I probably didn't express myself well enough. Lesson for next ranty blog post. Thanks.
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby wombatK » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:47 pm

I'm not sick of the attention cycling is getting - it's thoroughly deserved.What I
am totally sick of is the failure of the UCI to clear the decks and rebuild
an organisation worthy of our support.

The UCI is probably hoping it will all blow over and they continue with the
same corrupt or inept leadership and same old same old ineffective rules.
It would be good if the media doesn't let up on them, and continues
to dump on cycling until it is more credible.

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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby DavidS » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:33 pm

While I agree that cycling, with things like more sensitive tests and the blood passport, probably is ahead of most sports in trying to detect drug cheats, there is still one huge elephant in the room. That elephant is the UCI and the leadership who were presiding over the sport during the Lance years and the years of most pro cyclists taking drugs. The current leadership of the UCI is clearly not serious about getting drugs out of pro cycling, despite the testing regime that is in place. The current leadership of the UCI is incapable of reforming the organisation, it is tainted and cannot be cleaned . The current leadership of the UCI must go.

Given what is coming out I am amazed that the current leadership think they deserve to keep their positions. Any honourable person would have resigned long ago.

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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:03 pm

il padrone wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:I may as well chuck out that EPO and those steroids I have before I head to the golf course.

Beta-blockers on the other hand....... :idea:

Archery etc. Yep. Some have a different cocktail. Though (it appears) the prevalence in that case is not as it has been in cycling. Ditto AFAIK are other endurance sports like marathon, long distance swimming.

I think an interesting comparison for the grief of cycling may be with weightlifting. Many of the same issues. And a wholus-bolus approach across the broad spectrun of drug cheating. Though they are even more obscure than cycling has been so we rapidly forget and move on. (I still recall some turkish middle-weight lifter who, alone, did not look like a sumo wrestler,taking the HEAVYWEUGHT olympic gold shortly before the whole turkish teams was sent home mid-games as almost all returned positive test results.)

I see that golf is again trying to rub out the long putter. Somethign that certainly has not adverse health effects. Now THAT I find odd. I look forward to the day that some excellent golfer with one arm takes them to the International Court of Arbitration. :mrgreen:

(Hic! Apologies if my comments are found wanting in the light of day but I have had a good mix of spicy rice, bbq chicken legs and red wine after a hard couple of days at the office. :oops: Plus I am missing my long rides to work atm.)
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:39 am

il padrone wrote:Colin did you read norb's page and any of his links??

Yes, did you read what I was talking about? And it was addressed not specifically to Norbs originating blog but some common responses to the whole issue. But I will re-address what I tried to convey, using Norbs blog.

Since then, we cycling fans have been subjected to the USADA reasoned decision and, as a consequence, the fall of the Yellow Curtain. Cycling has taken a kicking. Time and time again I have been in discussion with fans of other sports trying to justify my love of this so called joke of a sport. It has been hard work. Often I have wanted to fire off Tweets or emails laced with my own unique brand of diplomacy. Diplomacy laced with F bombs and other school yard taunts. For once, I have resisted the urge.

Norbs say it has been "hard work". I said and say again that it is going to be hard work if you try and defend the indefensible. The fact that there are a string of other sports who do bad things is the last line of defence and one hardly worth putting.


So dear cycling fan, I hope that next time a fan of another sport tells you cycling is a sport full of cheats, you may be able to point them to a link in this post, or this actual post and let them know that cheating by doping isn’t just limited to cycling. It seems to be everywhere. If you want to trawl through a pretty comprehensive list of sports dopers, not just PED users, but all banned drugs, check out this Wiki entry. (Thanks Toby Forage for the link)

And again I question why anyone, Norbs included, feels compelled to defend it anyway. Just because we ride a bike, does not mean we then defend the wrongs of other bike riders. That sort of blood-is-thicker-than-water defence you reserve for your family.

On the sheer quantity of testing in cycling compared to other sports, yes, that SHOULD be a point of honour. However, if I was to raise this as a defence against someone attacking this sport then I would pray that he is not aware of much of the detail of the scandal. Because if he was he would respond that while one hand was spending considerable resources, way more than others, the other other hand was ensuring that it was for nought. And the wrong hand is the one that prevailed. Because of that outcome that level of testing is testament to the lack of will, not the strength of it.

Don't get me wrong - all those other sports Norbs refers to are of interest and mostly not new to me and others. Yes, I will be reading stories to come about these and I am, as have in the past, having a chuckle at the match fixing problems surrounding soccer. (AGAIN! How many times is this now?) And if they ever uncover anything like the depth of the UCI/USPostal scandal then we will all be subject to an unremitting media storm for a time. However, there will not be many amoung all the imperfect sports that will prove to be of the magnitude of the current one. Some yes. Not all.

btw Norbs, thanks for the wealth of links - I and others are sure to come back to them many times.


An aside - Carl Lewis? Who is Carl Lewis? Oh, that's right, he's the guy who sanctimoniously went after another cheat (that was legit) while all the time keeping in the cupboard directly relevant facts about his own situation that the public should have been aware of at the same time. I cringe a little when Carl Lewis talks of drugs in sport.
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby barefoot » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:47 am

VRE wrote:I know stuff all about competitive endurance cycling, but I think I've read enough to know that there are tactics involved. There are times to push yourself hard, and other times in the race to hold back and save your energy for the right moment.


The same can be said of car racing.

If you drive at 10/10 all the time, you'll burn fuel too fast, chew out tyres, risk mechanicals. So they have to hold back some times, push at others.

Tactics aside, if you put a more powerful engine in a racing car, it will win more races.

Same with bike racing.

And especially with race radios, all the tactics and strategy can be managed by somebody on the sidelines.

There are skills involved in cycling - these come to the fore on fast descents, where some riders are clearly more capable than others, even when they are not exerting any power (so not being helped by any PEDs they may or may not have on board). But being a fast descender will rarely win a race.
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby master6 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:51 am

sit tight.........Our footballers might yet make Lance look like a choir boy.
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:57 am

One further thought - If someone were to be pleading for a specific outcome like banning cycling from the olympics, in such a case we would be defending it's continued participation. And in that case the sins of other sports is relevant. Simply as a demonstration that perfect cleanliness is not a desirable standard unless we would like to no sports in there at all.

I don't know what arguments Norbs is mounting a defence against. But if it is such as I suggest here then the failures of other sports to get it perfect is highly relevant.
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby norbs » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:10 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote:One further thought - If someone were to be pleading for a specific outcome like banning cycling from the olympics, in such a case we would be defending it's continued participation. And in that case the sins of other sports is relevant. Simply as a demonstration that perfect cleanliness is not a desirable standard unless we would like to no sports in there at all.

I don't know what arguments Norbs is mounting a defence against. But if it is such as I suggest here then the failures of other sports to get it perfect is highly relevant.



I will point to the part of the blog where I tried to explain it.

Time and time again I have been in discussion with fans of other sports trying to justify my love of this so called joke of a sport. It has been hard work.

The problem with my post is that it was pieced together over an extended length of time and I should have explained myself with more clarity.

I am not arguing that cycling is cleaner than any other sport. The point I was trying to make is that I get frustrated when mates and other people tell me my sport is a cesspool, but when I point out to them that it isn't ONLY cycling, they get all defensive and ask for proof. Even then, some of them just say cycling has always been a haven for dopers and that sports like tennis, football and athletics have little or no instances of doping.
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby il padrone » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:39 am

master6 wrote:sit tight.........Our footballers might yet make Lance look like a choir boy.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-07/4505884

Illegal drug use widespread in Australian sport: Crime Commission
By chief political correspondent Simon Cullen

An Australian Crime Commission investigation has found widespread drug use in Australian professional sport, with some athletes being given substances not yet approved for human use.
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:49 pm

il padrone wrote:
master6 wrote:sit tight.........Our footballers might yet make Lance look like a choir boy.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-07/4505884

Illegal drug use widespread in Australian sport: Crime Commission
By chief political correspondent Simon Cullen

An Australian Crime Commission investigation has found widespread drug use in Australian professional sport, with some athletes being given substances not yet approved for human use.

I wonder if the provision of substances not yet approved is what gave rise to the requirement for players to sign waivers? Like many waivers imposed on people in the past they quite likely won't do much to protect errant parties anyway.

I would be interested to know what the waivers were about if anyone knows.
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby DaveOZ » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:02 pm

You'd make a bloody good journalist Norbs. This very same topic is now leading every news in the country. Remember mate, you broke it first! :D
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:17 pm

DaveOZ wrote:You'd make a bloody good journalist Norbs. This very same topic is now leading every news in the country. Remember mate, you broke it first! :D

You won't be so appreciative of Norbs once his paparazzi mates publish you adjusting yourself under the lycra daks some day. :twisted:
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby norbs » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:17 pm

DaveOZ wrote:You'd make a bloody good journalist Norbs. This very same topic is now leading every news in the country. Remember mate, you broke it first! :D


yeah, and they are taking all the traffic away from my blog. :)
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby norbs » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:18 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
DaveOZ wrote:You'd make a bloody good journalist Norbs. This very same topic is now leading every news in the country. Remember mate, you broke it first! :D

You won't be so appreciative of Norbs once his paparazzi mates publish you adjusting yourself under the lycra daks some day. :twisted:


I know my way around a camera. Will do it myself. :)
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby Mugglechops » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:29 pm

Norbs I am changing your name from Rupert to the Oracle :D
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby norbs » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:49 pm

Mugglechops wrote:Norbs I am changing your name from Rupert to the Oracle :D



I'd ask you to sit down, but, you're not going to anyway. And don't worry about the vase.
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby Mugglechops » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:24 pm

norbs wrote:
Mugglechops wrote:Norbs I am changing your name from Rupert to the Oracle :D



I'd ask you to sit down, but, you're not going to anyway. And don't worry about the vase.


:D :D

You riding tomorrow or what. I have been taking PEDs and my elbow is good to go :P
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby wombatK » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:31 pm

master6 wrote:sit tight.........Our footballers might yet make Lance look like a choir boy.

Lance was the choir-master of PED and I doubt anyone will make him look an innocent.

While the Crime Commission describes the drug use as "widespread" they do take pains to point
out it's not the majority of competitors. Lance created an environment where it was likely
the majority of the competitors in road cycling.

Lance also got plenty of chances to come clean - including the one he was given up til yesterday
(6th Feb), and has chosen not to.

The Crime Commission has given the cheaters here a chance to come clean and put their hands up.
Essendon surrendered themselves just the day before the Commission reporthit the streets.

More to follow, no doubt.
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Re: Sick of cycling being singled out for PED use?

Postby barefoot » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:50 pm

wombatK wrote:
master6 wrote:sit tight.........Our footballers might yet make Lance look like a choir boy.

Lance was the choir-master of PED and I doubt anyone will make him look an innocent.


Oh yeah, Lance was the Mr Big, controlling the entire drug scene in pro cycling.

I also heard he was selling PEDs to Essendon FC, and personally couriering the vials of "peptides" to Windy Hill, whenever he could fit it in with his training and his own time-consuming drug testing schedule (over 25,000 tests at last telling of the story, never failed a single one). I'm less sure about the rumours that he used to own a veterinary pharmaceuticals factory in the old Eastern Bloc in the 1980s, but there's probably some truth to it.

Yeah, once they lock that guy up, we can be certain that all sport around the world will be 100% drug-free, because really, they only take that stuff because Big Lance says they have to, and nobody knows where to get the gear if Lance doesn't hand it to them personally.

tim
who thinks Lance is a small fish in the grand scheme of things
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