To Ding or not to Ding

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby g-boaf » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:34 pm

dougalh wrote:To those people walking the wrong way down the road or even the PSP I miss them by as little as possible.
But other than that, to all law abiding citizens I give a holler and generally "BIKE" lets them know.


Some peds like to see if they can knock you from the bike or at least scare you by moving over towards you right when you are close to them. Pretty dangerous situation which cannot be solved by going slower. Unfortunately some of them like to "share" wide shared paths in that manner. And they are allowed to, because they have right of way.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby il padrone » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:37 pm

g-boaf wrote:Unfortunately some of them like to "share" wide shared paths in that manner. And they are allowed to, because they have right of way.

Most certainly not.

236 Pedestrians not to cause a traffic hazard or obstruction
(1) A pedestrian must not cause a traffic hazard by moving into the path of a driver.
Penalty: 1 penalty unit.
(2) A pedestrian must not unreasonably obstruct the path of any driver or another pedestrian.
Penalty: 1 penalty unit.


Not very much 'fine-power' behind it, but if they injure you they'll sing for it.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby g-boaf » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:19 pm

il padrone wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Unfortunately some of them like to "share" wide shared paths in that manner. And they are allowed to, because they have right of way.

Most certainly not.

236 Pedestrians not to cause a traffic hazard or obstruction
(1) A pedestrian must not cause a traffic hazard by moving into the path of a driver.
Penalty: 1 penalty unit.
(2) A pedestrian must not unreasonably obstruct the path of any driver or another pedestrian.
Penalty: 1 penalty unit.


Not very much 'fine-power' behind it, but if they injure you they'll sing for it.


Amazing, so they don't quite have blanket right of way... Hmmm! :wink: That's the clarification I wanted to get - in light of recent statements we've seen here on pedestrians and their supposed 'right of way'.

The one who wiped me out should have had the book thrown at her for the injuries she caused me, and the absolutely unavoidable and reckless nature of her last moment change of direction right at the point when my front wheel was alongside her. Well, in an ideal world yes. But it's done and dusted - in the confusion and pain, I never managed to get her details before she ran off. In future I'll dismount from the bike and walk past these types on the rough and uneven grass beside the shared-path instead.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby arkle » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:52 pm

It's all very well arguing about who has right of way but it's irrelevant when you've hit someone and hurt them and come off and broken your nose and chipped a tooth and you've got twelve stitches in your forehead. It's better to ride defensively and cooperatively regardless of who is breaking the rules because no matter how many times you try to prove them wrong there will still always be lots of people breaking the rules. It's just stupid to "make a point" or "teach people a lesson" if doing so repeatedly puts you and them in danger.

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby twizzle » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:35 pm

I'm very wary around others - just this morning, the guy ahead of me on an on-road almost high-sided his bike when doing a bloody head-check. Last week I stopped to help a girl who had gotten too close to another rider and touched wheels when he slowed for a road crossing. Yesterday, I had two "casual" cyclists come out of a side entry to a shared pathway and cut straight across the path in front of me without giving way, seconds later a cyclist overtook me.

Never get too close and keep the hands covering brakes at all times unless riding in a completely open uninhabited area!
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby KonaCommuter » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:32 pm

My Gazelle has an awesome set up for the bell.


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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby il padrone » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:11 pm

Ah, yes I have one of those Incredibell grip-bells too. Like it.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby Marty Moose » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:41 pm

I've learnt with a bell I get abuse, my voice I get abuse, no warning I very abuse, lights on I get abuse.So now I don't bother I yell out loud most move quick sill get abuse so no different.

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby landscapecadmonkey » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:12 pm

Whilst there are no absolutes (and the following percentages are a rough estimation of total passes), i have found after a few years of commuting and riding on road and bike path, a few patterns appearing to have warranted at least an empirical system;

1. I ALWAYS ding (now)
2. 10% appreciate (and say thanks) for the ding. (cool)
3. 10% take offence and say something (too bad, so sad)
4. 99% at least always know a bike is approaching

5. 25% display a dislike the verbal 'passing on the right' shout, seeing this maybe as a cyclist who doesn't sport a legally required bell. (although this option is better than NO warning at all)
6. 90% of passings haven't required a ding, as the ped has kept their left alignment, but better to be safe than sorry.
7. BUT in 10% of cases where i haven't dinged (prior to developing the abovementioned system) the ped has either wandered or jinked to the right just prior to the passing. Dinging has now reduced the uncertainty dramatically.
8. 5% where a ding hasnt registered, and i have either employed the Airzond (only use that in extreme circimstances for example when someone hasnt registered the ding and look like they might randomly jink, or perhaps an oncoming school group of kids exercising or jogging on a bike path) OR
9. like last weekend, in dealing with some kids walking on the right side alignment up ahead.... let out the ding, 2 heard me but the lead ped didnt.... he started to wander left at the last moment... and all i had time for was to let out a primal and gutteral 'OY MATE, LOOK OUT', and it had the desired effect.

Upshot, for me at least, i ALWAYS ding, slow and assess.

Having hit the odd ped, and had a young ped wander back into me, now i NEVER assume. The bell is my friend.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby VRE » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:23 am

il padrone wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Unfortunately some of them like to "share" wide shared paths in that manner. And they are allowed to, because they have right of way.

Most certainly not.

236 Pedestrians not to cause a traffic hazard or obstruction
(1) A pedestrian must not cause a traffic hazard by moving into the path of a driver.
Penalty: 1 penalty unit.
(2) A pedestrian must not unreasonably obstruct the path of any driver or another pedestrian.
Penalty: 1 penalty unit.


Not very much 'fine-power' behind it, but if they injure you they'll sing for it.

Also supported by this statement near the end of the Victorian rules:
In the Road Rules, a reference to a "driver" generally includes a rider. If a particular rule does not apply to riders, or applies only to particular kinds of riders, this is stated in the rule.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby g-boaf » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:12 am

twizzle wrote:I'm very wary around others....

Never get too close and keep the hands covering brakes at all times unless riding in a completely open uninhabited area!


Have to agree with that. Always make sure other riders know you are there. That was my strategy - and I was never one to follow closely behind someone else, some of them never indicate when they are going to turn. :|
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:17 am

I ride a shared path on the way to/home from work every day. After years of warning peds, I have given up. I used to use a bell and have peds walk out in front of me and stand in the middle of the path, making it difficult to ride around. Each time I noted they were wearing a music player. I have also ridden close enough for peds to hear my bell, rung and have them leap in front of me from shock. Now as I approach peds, I assess and then make a decision to:
a) ride on past if they are walking to the left and holding a consistent line
b) slow and pass with caution if they appear erratic
c) basically stop if I am unsure of what they are going to do
d) ride off the path and avoid completely - I am running 32s so can ride grass no issues

If necessary, I use a verbal warning of "bike!". When I resort to a verbal warning, it is not a feeble whimper that gets lost in the background noise of the surrounds. It means that I have judged wrong and sounds like either my life of their life is on the line. It is far louder than any bell I have heard. If you are crossing a shared path without looking (who does that BTW?) and hear me yell "Bike! Bike! Bike!" you WILL know about it! :lol: :evil:
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby il padrone » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:31 am

casual_cyclist wrote: Now as I approach peds, I assess and then make a decision to:
a) ride on past if they are walking to the left and holding a consistent line
b) slow and pass with caution if they appear erratic
c) basically stop if I am unsure of what they are going to do
d) ride off the path and avoid completely - I am running 32s so can ride grass no issues

If necessary, I use a verbal warning of "bike!".

I do all of the above as a matter of course - part of dealing with the vagaries of humanity. But I still use the bell as a routine warning device and find that it helps me and is appreciated by the vast majority of pedestrians on the paths.

I really don't see why anyone would think that playing the 'silent ranger' would be something that pedestrians would like :? It's as bad as a ninja cyclist IMO.
Last edited by il padrone on Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby arkle » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:45 am

casual_cyclist wrote:I have also ridden close enough for peds to hear my bell, rung and have them leap in front of me from shock.


Ding much earlier. If they're leaping in front of you from shock you're far too close to them. I easily have more than five seconds gap between them acknowledging the bell and me reaching them.

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:55 am

arkle wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:I have also ridden close enough for peds to hear my bell, rung and have them leap in front of me from shock.


Ding much earlier. If they're leaping in front of you from shock you're far too close to them. I easily have more than five seconds gap between them acknowledging the bell and me reaching them.

arkle

Back in the day when I bothered dinging, I used to start quite early - more than a 5 second gap. Didn't help but thanks for the advice. The issue is people not paying any attention at all or engrossed in conversation.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:02 am

il padrone wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote: Now as I approach peds, I assess and then make a decision to:
a) ride on past if they are walking to the left and holding a consistent line
b) slow and pass with caution if they appear erratic
c) basically stop if I am unsure of what they are going to do
d) ride off the path and avoid completely - I am running 32s so can ride grass no issues

If necessary, I use a verbal warning of "bike!".

I do all of the above as a matter of course - part of dealing with the vagaries of humanity. But I still use the bell as a routine warning device and find that it helps me and is appreciated by the vast majority of pedestrians on the paths.

I really don't see why anyone would think that playing the 'silent ranger' would be something that pedestrians would like :? It's as bad as a ninja cyclist IMO.

Well, no complaints so far... It probably makes a big difference that the shared path I ride has very heavy traffic, so peds have bikes passing them from every few seconds to a couple a minute. It is rare for me to see a cyclist warn a ped they are passing on the shared path I use. So I guess we are all a bunch of 'silent rangers'. As far as being as bad as a ninja cyclist, I am going to call you on that one. When I am cycling behind people at walking speed, I don't need to call passing as I pass any more than a runner needs to call passing when passing a ped. That is nothing like a ninja cyclist IMO. I'm not exaggerating. There are times which I literally cycle past some of the peds on that path at walking speed. Sometimes it is necessary.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby il padrone » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:17 am

casual_cyclist wrote:So I guess we are all a bunch of 'silent rangers'. As far as being as bad as a ninja cyclist, I am going to call you on that one.

No criticism of you specifically. There are some on here however who have suggested the ding from a bell is rude and it's better to say nothing. Then some are even advocating buzzing wayward pedestrians. They are as bad as a ninja cyclist, IMHO.

Certainly I judge the use of my bell. On a busy cycle route with pedestrians who are predictable I often don't ring it. When riding with a large group the leader will usually say "There's a bunch of X of us following" so we don't all need to ring.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby Summernight » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:19 am

il padrone wrote:I do all of the above as a matter of course - part of dealing with the vagaries of humanity. But I still use the bell as a routine warning device and find that it helps me and is appreciated by the vast majority of pedestrians on the paths.

I really don't see why anyone would think that playing the 'silent ranger' would be something that pedestrians would like :? It's as bad as a ninja cyclist IMO.


I had a group of 6 twenty-something male cyclists (non-lycra wearing for those playing at home) pass me in a close group 2 abreast (I think they all knew each other) while I was jogging on the shared path up the Yarra Boulevard hill this morning and then 20 metres behind were two other non-lycra wearing cyclists - NONE, absolutely none of them rang bells or even indicated with a shout that they were passing. And a few did pass quite closely.

I would have appreciated anything from them - one or two passing is fine - but eight in a row with nothing? It was a bit disconcerting.

I specifically run on the left and hold my line (unless I have to dodge puddles or droppings from various animals) but would still appreciate an acknowledgment that someone is approaching from behind - especially such a big group - either bell or voice is fine.

And yes, I wear earpods and listen to music - on soft and I can usually hear cyclists approaching by their tyre noise. Running up that hill my breathing starts to overpower my music. :oops:
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby twizzle » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:19 pm

Summernight wrote:And yes, I wear earpods and listen to music - on soft and I can usually hear cyclists approaching by their tyre noise. Running up that hill my breathing starts to overpower my music. :oops:


The general assumption (based on experience) is that headphones result in complete loss of awareness for the wearer.

Doesn't stop me from calling "passing", but I don't expect it to be heard.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby Summernight » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:23 pm

twizzle wrote:
Summernight wrote:And yes, I wear earpods and listen to music - on soft and I can usually hear cyclists approaching by their tyre noise. Running up that hill my breathing starts to overpower my music. :oops:


The general assumption (based on experience) is that headphones result in complete loss of awareness for the wearer.

Doesn't stop me from calling "passing", but I don't expect it to be heard.


At least you call. As a runner on shared paths I appreciate that you do, even if you think the ped didn't hear you. :P
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:46 pm

il padrone wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:So I guess we are all a bunch of 'silent rangers'. As far as being as bad as a ninja cyclist, I am going to call you on that one.

No criticism of you specifically. There are some on here however who have suggested the ding from a bell is rude and it's better to say nothing. Then some are even advocating buzzing wayward pedestrians. They are as bad as a ninja cyclist, IMHO.

Certainly I judge the use of my bell. On a busy cycle route with pedestrians who are predictable I often don't ring it. When riding with a large group the leader will usually say "There's a bunch of X of us following" so we don't all need to ring.

Actually, that is a good point. One section of the shared path from East Perth to the city is heavily frequented by people walking and cycling to work. In this section, a ped could be passed by 20 to 40 cyclists or more. If everyone dinged there bell their entire walk would be accompanied by loud ringing bells. I would find that a very unpleasant environment to walk to work in.

Interesting that you think it's ok to be a 'silent ranger' "On a busy cycle route with pedestrians who are predictable...". That is the shared path I ride on every day... :lol:
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby ironhanglider » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:05 pm

I find that rrrring bells are perceived to be much friendlier than ding bells. I reckon that the ding bells are much more likely to be interpreted as 'get out of my way', whereas the rrrring bells are more likely to be interpreted as simply a warning of approach. They also have the advantage of producing the sound over a longer period which helps to penetrate other background noise.

I always ring my bell for pedestrians on a shared path and I try to give them a few seconds to react. By far and away the majority of occasions I can see a reaction which means that at least I have eliminated the surprise element. Most people will respond by moving to the left, with or without a head check, I often get thank-you's but I can't recall any abuse.

Since I often have either one or two children in tow they will often also ring their bells too. By a fortunate coincidence the three bells have different tones but they all fall within a pentatonic scale so even with all bells going it is a happy and musical noise.

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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby il padrone » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:20 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:Interesting that you think it's ok to be a 'silent ranger' "On a busy cycle route with pedestrians who are predictable...". That is the shared path I ride on every day... :lol:

Always judge the conditions and the specific situation.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby munga » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:29 pm

why do cyclists think using a bell is silly/lame/amateur etc?
i've never been mistaken for a church, a school, a ship, a fire engine, a telephone, a railway crossing, or a cow.
most people have figured out that i'm probably on a bicycle..
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Re: To Ding or not to Ding

Postby coyote » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:36 pm

or a cow.


Now there is a good idea, tie a cow bell off the top tube of your bike and as you move around while riding your bike, the bell will ring all by it self allowing one to keep their hands on the brakes in case something unexpected happens. 8) :idea:
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