Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby thearthurdog » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:51 am
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby Krank » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:43 pm
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby Magnum9 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:56 pm
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:17 pm
Wheels certainly have variable Cd with yaw and there is some funky stuff that goes on, for example, see this video and explain how the disk creates a forward thrust:Magnum9 wrote:A serious question, once a crosswind goes past 90 degrees, does a deeper wheel start to act like a sail and give a significant benefit over a lighter non aero wheel?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dxhNQj66YU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby winstonw » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:03 am
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:I think it's time you published your models. The gallery awaits.
Unstable aerodynamics? What exactly do you mean by this? Be precise in your definition.
Steering torque? Seriously? If you have trouble steering a wheel due to steering torque variances in wheels that are commercially available, then I'm afraid you have much bigger problems.
rubbish....every Joe is buying aero wheels these days, and struggles with them in gusty moderate winds...including in races. Most quickly learn there's a threshold they should be ridden in if they don't want to sacrifice bike control.
The more you post in this thread, the more you qualify your original absolutes Alex.
Regarding your TT example above, well hello....of course cross winds and gusts matter in the real world.
Now can you explain how your blog post charts determine when a particular depth aero rim will outperform a non aero lighter weight wheel, for a particular wind environment. Because this is what the thread has always been about. You made absolutist statements that aero always outweighs weight.... Of course, your charts cannot do that as you haven't accounted for the things I mentioned earlier.
And I don't need to be more precise with my definitions, because they're ENVE's. If all wheel manufacturers had relied on your original absolutes and blog charts Alex, aero wheels would be less evolved. If you think you've got a superior grasp on aerodynamics, get into the wheel manufacturing business.
meanwhile, keep mollifying and qualifying
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby Mulger bill » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:22 am
London Boy 29/12/2011
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby warthog1 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:38 am
Champion in his field on this board at least.
Still can't come up with any data or counter argument but can't find it in himself to be quiet in the absence of the above either.
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby twizzle » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:38 am
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby warthog1 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:08 am
- adjectivetwizzle wrote:Vexatious.
1.
causing vexation; troublesome; annoying: a vexatious situation.
2.
Law. (of legal actions) instituted without sufficient grounds and serving only to cause annoyance to the defendant.
3.
disorderly; confused; troubled.
Nice
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby mjd » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:39 am
I am still chuckling about steering torquewarthog1 wrote:- adjectivetwizzle wrote:Vexatious.
1.
causing vexation; troublesome; annoying: a vexatious situation.
2.
Law. (of legal actions) instituted without sufficient grounds and serving only to cause annoyance to the defendant.
3.
disorderly; confused; troubled.
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby jcjordan » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:42 am
Cross winds and gust that have a detrimental effect on aero wheels are fairly well outside of the norm in any race that I have every participated in. Even the worst course that I have ever ridden in I would still go out in 50mm plus wheels. The short amount of time and effort in managing this fact was far outweighed by the benefitswinstonw wrote:
The more you post in this thread, the more you qualify your original absolutes Alex.
Regarding your TT example above, well hello....of course cross winds and gusts matter in the real world.
Veni, Vidi, Vespa -- I Came, I Saw, I Rode Home
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby warthog1 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:28 am
+1jcjordan wrote:
Cross winds and gust that have a detrimental effect on aero wheels are fairly well outside of the norm in any race that I have every participated in. Even the worst course that I have ever ridden in I would still go out in 50mm plus wheels. The short amount of time and effort in managing this fact was far outweighed by the benefits
I've got 85mm tubulars front and rear. It's them or alloy clinchers, that are not particularly light or aero. I've ridden them in some gusty conditions but have never had to swap them out. They are much faster than the low clinchers. I'd rather concentrate a bit more than pop or have nothing left at the end on the clinchers.
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby Xplora » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:30 pm
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:36 pm
I don't see every Joe buying aero wheels. Must be special where you live. If you can't ride them properly, perhaps you could use some coachingwinstonw wrote:rubbish....every Joe is buying aero wheels these days, and struggles with them in gusty moderate winds...including in races. Most quickly learn there's a threshold they should be ridden in if they don't want to sacrifice bike control.
And what absolute would that be? Go back a read what I wrote, not what fantasy strawman exists in your head about what I wrote.winstonw wrote:The more you post in this thread, the more you qualify your original absolutes Alex.
No, I didn't. But perhaps reading comprehension is a problem for you?winstonw wrote:You made absolutist statements that aero always outweighs weight....
Ah, so it's OK to be vague and ambiguous because someone else is. Right, got it.winstonw wrote:And I don't need to be more precise with my definitions, because they're ENVE's. If all wheel manufacturers had relied on your original absolutes and blog charts Alex, aero wheels would be less evolved. If you think you've got a superior grasp on aerodynamics, get into the wheel manufacturing business.
I have no interest in getting into the wheel manufacturing business, and why on earth would I suggest any wheel manufacturer rely on a couple of charts pertaining to a particular scenario? Please do your yourself a favour and learn about logical fallacies because you introduce them at every turn.
winstonw wrote:meanwhile, keep mollifying and qualifying
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby twizzle » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:39 pm
Switch to this thread and you get the exact opposite - trying to take a simple concept (aero is more important than weight) and make it overly complex by insisting on an onerously complex analysis. Winston must have thirty or so sets of wheels and wants something to calculate which set matches the predicted terrain, weather conditions, profile of the riders he will be with and the power profile he is intending to use when riding.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby g-boaf » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:56 pm
I've ridden 50 and 65mm carbon clinchers in some fairly gusty conditions. I think you just get used to it and deal with it. There are a few times when you'll have interesting moments when the wind really kicks up, but that's inevitable and it probably happens to everyone at some stage.warthog1 wrote:+1jcjordan wrote:
Cross winds and gust that have a detrimental effect on aero wheels are fairly well outside of the norm in any race that I have every participated in. Even the worst course that I have ever ridden in I would still go out in 50mm plus wheels. The short amount of time and effort in managing this fact was far outweighed by the benefits
If got 85mm tubulars front and rear. It's them or alloy clinchers, that are not particularly light or aero. I've ridden them in some gusty conditions but have never had to swap them out. They are much faster than the low clinchers. I'd rather concentrate a bit more than pop or have nothing left at the end on the clinchers.
Those wheels are damn fast - but for the most part I'll just use normal alloy wheels. Unless you are racing, there is no point in using the really good wheels - unless you want bragging rights at the coffee shop, and then you'd better be the sort who does those wheels some justice, unless you want to incur the unfortunate disparaging comments.
I won't get into the physics and mechanics of it all, I'm no Adrian Newey, John Barnard or Norbert Singer - and never will be. I'll happily leave the wind-tunnel black-magic to others.
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby warthog1 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:47 pm
I only use the 85mm tubulars for racing but if I had some 50 mm clinchers I'd happily use them in some of the bunch rides here. Only because I'm riding with others whose ability far exceeds my owng-boaf wrote:I've ridden 50 and 65mm carbon clinchers in some fairly gusty conditions. I think you just get used to it and deal with it. There are a few times when you'll have interesting moments when the wind really kicks up, but that's inevitable and it probably happens to everyone at some stage.warthog1 wrote:+1jcjordan wrote:
Cross winds and gust that have a detrimental effect on aero wheels are fairly well outside of the norm in any race that I have every participated in. Even the worst course that I have ever ridden in I would still go out in 50mm plus wheels. The short amount of time and effort in managing this fact was far outweighed by the benefits
If got 85mm tubulars front and rear. It's them or alloy clinchers, that are not particularly light or aero. I've ridden them in some gusty conditions but have never had to swap them out. They are much faster than the low clinchers. I'd rather concentrate a bit more than pop or have nothing left at the end on the clinchers.
Those wheels are damn fast - but for the most part I'll just use normal alloy wheels. Unless you are racing, there is no point in using the really good wheels.
but hey it helps the strava segments hanging off the back
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby Mulger bill » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:58 pm
I'd like to see if I can replicate these results in a vacuum but Dyson tells me it will invalidate the warranty
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby warthog1 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:07 pm
The dyson is probably one vacuum where it would work. No bag, no loss of suction. They are really good, even deal with sanded plaster which clogs most IME.
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby g-boaf » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:44 pm
they encourage you to work harder to do them justice. 50s are pretty good all round actually. But you can't use them all the time, they are a bit costly for that and overkill for anything but racing. That means I have to get into racing too.warthog1 wrote:
I only use the 85mm tubulars for racing but if I had some 50 mm clinchers I'd happily use them in some of the bunch rides here. Only because I'm riding with others whose ability far exceeds my own
but hey it helps the strava segments hanging off the back
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby Xplora » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:52 pm
That Tom Compton site definitely implied that you are only talking about a difference of 50m over 5 kilometres... if you aren't fighting for placing, then it might not be noticeable. The thing is though, human endeavour is about the last 1%. I can lift 20kg bags all day, but you put a 25kg bag on my shoulder and it's like a boulder. I can ride at 32kmh easy, but 34 is chewing my anerobic system. HARD.Mulger bill wrote: Is it 'cos I'm fat and slow or I'm using the wrong modelling software?
If you're interested in the poofteenth of a fraction of a bee's hind leg, it's going to help. Worth as much as a new bike? I dunno
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby TDC » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:04 pm
because your modelling software is fat slow and old.Mulger bill wrote:I've got 44mm deep Pro-Lite Gavia clinchers on me roadie and 20something Weinmann clinchers on me commuter and I can't feel any difference uphill or down. Is it 'cos I'm fat and slow or I'm using the wrong modelling software?
I'd like to see if I can replicate these results in a vacuum but Dyson tells me it will invalidate the warranty
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby Nobody » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:39 pm
And it won't happen to your modeling software eventually?TDC wrote:...because your modelling software is fat slow and old.
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby TDC » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:52 pm
Ha...mine has always been that way! Anyway the argument is irrelevant to me as I don't race or use strava. I just dig riding my bike.Nobody wrote:And it won't happen to your modeling software eventually?TDC wrote:...because your modelling software is fat slow and old.
edit: i forgot the smiley on the original post to MB. I was joking.
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Re: Weight Vs Aerodynamics -Wheelset Selection
Postby toolonglegs » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:26 pm
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