Do you really need an Aus helmet?

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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby gistane » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:21 pm

outnabike wrote:To the police: If a rider has a helmet on, that’s enough for now. You don’t look for stickers on seatbelts, just that they’re being used. Bookings for “unapproved helmet” are likely to prove unsound in court.


I would assume for a car to be legally sold in Australia the seat belts would need to comply with Australian standards. I am pretty sure that once your car is old enough (over 5 years) and you need to have your car inspected first before you can renew your registration they actually check the workings of your seatbelt. This would also mean that if you have fitted non approved seat belts then the mechanic will not pass your vehicle so you can not register.

So if you car is registered then the police would not really need to check the seat belts.

Also the police at times pull people over and go over their vehicles with a fine tooth comb trying to pick up anything and everything and I bet you they would look at your seat belts if they thought they were not legal and pin you for that
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by BNA » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:36 pm

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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby AlMac » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:36 pm

Just wear a helmet with the Australian Standards sticker on it, even if you are in the wombat forest.

Safety aside, the main issue is not having recourse, or having limited recourse, to any insurance/compensation cover you might be entitled to in an accident - on or off road and wherever it happens.

It's not worth the $80, or whatever it might be, to be arguing with an insurer/third party over whether your helmet was safe/lawful.

If you are in need of that cover, $80 is nothing. If you are the one making the pay out, then the fact that the other person saved $80 to ride with a non-approved helmet might save you a packet.
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby Kenzo » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:52 pm

high_tea wrote:Then there's the question of how different the helmet in question is compared to a standards-compliant one.
I think that, for example, showing that wearing a non-AS helmet was contributorily negligent would be a pretty tough gig. I don't know that this would stop an insurer from trying (or threatening to try as a negotiating tactic), judging from my hazy recollection of that UK situation.

Yes, this is how it would work with an insurance claim (if I understand high_tea correctly). Denial of a claim would need proof the overseas helmet contributed to the injury. This would be extremely difficult to show.

I'll give you another example of insurance how companies require proof before denial of a claim. A driver caused an accident. About 20yrs ago he never bothered to renew his license. The claim was denied but the driver challenged the decision.
The claim was eventually paid by the insurer anyway as the insurance ombudsman ruled it could not be shown the possession of a license would have prevented the incident and it would be too difficult / expensi e for the insurance company to argue otherwise.
Note however, the cost/benefit numbers may be different in a death or permanent disability claim.
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby mitzikatzi » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:44 pm

kokoman wrote:Can someone share the reason why the Oz standard is superior to Euro / Nth American standards?


Image

Last time I checked these met the Aust Standard.
Thomas & Friends Helmet $18.92

That Sticker really reassures me I am wearing a safe effective helmet.
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby il padrone » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:58 pm

mitzikatzi wrote:That Sticker really reassures me I am wearing a safe effective helmet.

Are you suggesting that the use of Thomas the Tank Engine graphics compromises the helmet's safety somehow??

Or is it that you believe kid's helmets are not designed to provide safe head protection for some reason??
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby il padrone » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:18 am

sogood wrote:On the one had some anti-MHL advocates (not necessarily you) pushes how helmets are unnecessary, to the point of even causing injuries. On the other, those are arguing the importance of an AS sticker vs EU or US standards.

Sorry, this is an outright troll and falsehood. By far most people posting here and advocating the removal of the MHL are helmet-wearers, yes (it's the law currently) and many advocate the use of AS-approved helmets (also the law). No-one is saying helmets are "unnecessary" as a blanket statement, just perhaps not essential for all uses. The case being argued is clearly about choice, and this persistent misrepresentation of most (if not all) people's position is inaccurate and a poor (and tired) line of argument.

Cut the crap or get out of the room!
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby sogood » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:56 am

jasonc wrote:...and the court case would go like this:
judge: was the helmet purchased in Oz with the appropriate oz standards?
you: no but....
judge: guilty

Given how our courts give so much leeway for lawyers to tick their clock, they sure wouldn't jump to that "guilty" ruling without much more "evidence". Way too simplistic.
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby outnabike » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:52 am

I am in no way even intending to mention MHL. The thread is asking Do you really need an Aus helmet?
http://roadrider.com.au/special-feature ... lmet-legal
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/mo ... lmets.html
http://roadrider.com.au/special-feature ... of-helmets
I did say this stuff can blow your mind. And it is an alternative view to what the helmet stickers are all about. I am just reading the posts of others with an open mind. No axe to grind here.

You see if a bloke buys a helmet from OS it will be a good one. Not a $20—item that is freely available here in Coles or Anaconda. It may not be to Aus standards but can be made so however with the blessing of the sticker from the said, cheap Aussie purchase. This is being done more frequently that many realise.

Those two internet sites look into our laws and try to make sense of the matter if the label gets lost or falls off a good correctly made Aussie helmet.
It appears the police cannot immediately make you guilty as proven because a label has fallen off, If it is a locally purchased passed product its status has not changed with the loss of a sticker. The store or manufacture should issue you another sticker that was defective in application or quality.
You are not required to carry proof of purchase of a helmet in your pocket.

I am on the side of the consumer. Those sites show that a cartel exists in Australia and they have set up only a few test stations to be used buy a select group of manufacturers.
The sites also show the disregard of the industries own regs and overnight changes to laws that make a helmet redundant even between states. Also that the Aus NZ trade agreements is letting in different standard helmets to allow the trade agreements to exist by default.

This info is certainly a radical step away from a blind faith in the Aus regulations and make a thinking person look at the laws with a different perspective.

The stereo topic “My mate said and MHL hysteria” are irrelevant. I think it is an interesting prospect to assume that we can be declared innocent rather than immediately guilty if found with a ticket less helmet.
One wonders why a sticker can’t be imbedded in manufacture and the clear cote applied over it. This is how my old crappy “Headway “ helmet is made.
Heavens to Bettsy, could it be that the intrepid “manufacturers” are simply bringing in helmets and gluing a label to them?
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby mitzikatzi » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:42 am

il padrone wrote:
mitzikatzi wrote:That Sticker really reassures me I am wearing a safe effective helmet.

Are you suggesting that the use of Thomas the Tank Engine graphics compromises the helmet's safety somehow??

Or is it that you believe kid's helmets are not designed to provide safe head protection for some reason??


No the Thomas graphics just look cool and match my expensive race bike :D I reckon good for an extra 5kmh on Beach road.

I gain the impression people think that the Aust standard means a lot. I am amazed at the lack of technology that can go into a helmet and it still passes the Aust standard. Yet my still fairly expensive Bell helmet without an Aust standard sticker is meant to be inferior to these basic helmets. I know what I would prefer in a crash (not that I believe helmets do anything in a crash but stop me losing skin). I also own a Huffy helmet. It is just a "dome" of foam with a couple of poorly designed straps. Size is adjusted my sticking in soft foam pads. Yes it has the sticker.

Oh and the Aust Std sticker keeps me safe/reassures me comment. Sarcasm doesn't have a font :shock:
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby il padrone » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:52 am

mitzikatzi wrote: It is just a "dome" of foam with a couple of poorly designed straps.

Surprisingly (or not), this is about all that is needed to give you very good impact protection.

Everything else, that you pay the extra $200 for, is about maintaining this impact protection while allowing for reduced weight, greater ventilation and easier adjustability; all to make the helmet more comfortable. Because normally such refinements would reduce the helmet's effectiveness.

Don't ever kid yourself that the extra $$$ you pay does anything to make the helmet any better protection for your head than that "dome of foam".
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby arkle » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:36 am

A combined solution to the MHL/ventilation/vanity mobs - The Invisible Bicycle Helmet!

http://www.hovding.com/

How cool is that!

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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby Summernight » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:21 pm

arkle wrote:A combined solution to the MHL/ventilation/vanity mobs - The Invisible Bicycle Helmet!

http://www.hovding.com/

How cool is that!

arkle


Cool but hell will probably freeze over before that is allowed in Australia.
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby AlMac » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:00 pm

Kenzo wrote:
high_tea wrote:Then there's the question of how different the helmet in question is compared to a standards-compliant one.
I think that, for example, showing that wearing a non-AS helmet was contributorily negligent would be a pretty tough gig. I don't know that this would stop an insurer from trying (or threatening to try as a negotiating tactic), judging from my hazy recollection of that UK situation.

Yes, this is how it would work with an insurance claim (if I understand high_tea correctly). Denial of a claim would need proof the overseas helmet contributed to the injury. This would be extremely difficult to show.

I'll give you another example of insurance how companies require proof before denial of a claim. A driver caused an accident. About 20yrs ago he never bothered to renew his license. The claim was denied but the driver challenged the decision.
The claim was eventually paid by the insurer anyway as the insurance ombudsman ruled it could not be shown the possession of a license would have prevented the incident and it would be too difficult / expensi e for the insurance company to argue otherwise.
Note however, the cost/benefit numbers may be different in a death or permanent disability claim.


It doesn't matter how hard it is to prove contributory negligence, for $80 or whatever it is (even $200 which would seem far more than one could save overseas), your savings will be nothing compared with the trouble of sorting it out.
It's also possible a non-Australian Standards helmet could case the same issues for, or even void, your own insurance, but it would depend on the policy wording.
The more significant your claim, the more worthwhile it is to an insurer not to pay it and the more you will need it paid.

None AS helmets just aren't worth it.
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby high_tea » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:00 pm

outnabike wrote:I am in no way even intending to mention MHL. The thread is asking Do you really need an Aus helmet?


The legislation is crystal clear on this point: yes.

outnabike wrote: http://roadrider.com.au/special-feature ... lmet-legal
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/mo ... lmets.html
http://roadrider.com.au/special-feature ... of-helmets
I did say this stuff can blow your mind. And it is an alternative view to what the helmet stickers are all about. I am just reading the posts of others with an open mind. No axe to grind here.


Those links aren't working for me. I did read the links you posted earlier, yet my mind remains very much un-blown. The situation doesn't seem that complicated: there are inconsistent state laws referencing old and new versions of the standard, plus consumer protection laws and road rules aren't necessarily in sync. That's pretty poor, but it has no effect on the legal situation for bicycle helmets. AFAICT that is as follows:

current standards compliant helmet, purchased onshore - OK
non-compliant helmet - not OK
standards compliant helmet, purchased offshore - debatable. Depends on exactly what the standard says. It isn't freely available, which is poor form if you ask me.

Absent some careful discussion of exactly what the bicycle helmet standard says about stickers, I don't think helmet stickers have much to do with anything.

If someone has actually been prosecuted (not issued with a ticket: prosecuted) for a stickerless helmet, that'd be something worth talking about. But I haven't seen anything to suggest that's actually happened.
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby arkle » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:06 pm

I buy cheap Australian Standard helmets and peel the stickers out of them and sell them on ebay. The labels almost cover the cost of the helmets.

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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby il padrone » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:20 pm

Image



....or else if for real it's:

Image
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby scotto » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:31 pm

Having just had the track nationals here made me wonder about helmets. They have exemptions for all sorts of things
Rule 3.2.02
a) TRACK - In all track events competitors shall wear an approved AS2063, ANSI, Snell or EN approved helmet

b) ROAD - In all road events with the exception of International UCI events (provided permits have been obtained), an Australian Standards approved helmet AS2063 shall be worn.


Nothing like double standards for the elite.
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby Xplora » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:45 pm

Get the AU Standard helmet, the hassle you save will be cheaper than the cost benefit. Realistically, it's stupid BS but that's the law. I am mainly concerned about "after the fact" legality. I have no question that when it goes down, Snell or AU isn't the key factor - divine intervention is. But Snell may reduce your insurance payouts and as was said before - insurance company thieves would try and rob your family and that's not worth 100 bucks.
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby Dan » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:53 pm

mitzikatzi wrote:Sarcasm doesn't have a font :shock:


Ah, but it does have a smiley... Image
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby high_tea » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:22 pm

Xplora wrote:Get the AU Standard helmet, the hassle you save will be cheaper than the cost benefit. Realistically, it's stupid BS but that's the law. I am mainly concerned about "after the fact" legality. I have no question that when it goes down, Snell or AU isn't the key factor - divine intervention is. But Snell may reduce your insurance payouts and as was said before - insurance company thieves would try and rob your family and that's not worth 100 bucks.


Where does Snell come into it for Australia?
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby singlespeedscott » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:26 pm

The sticker is a joke. Every high end helmet a manufacturer produces would be engineered to pass the highest standards for its intended market. That Giro helmet you bought cheap from CRC with British or Euro compliance will be identical to the same model sold in Australia with its compliance sticker. The sticker doesn't make it any better.
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby il padrone » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:23 pm

Yeah...... that's why I'm more than happy to buy Rumanian beef products :D



:shock: :shock:
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby singlespeedscott » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:02 am

Hardly a similar comparison
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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby familyguy » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:53 am

singlespeedscott wrote:The sticker is a joke. Every high end helmet a manufacturer produces would be engineered to pass the highest standards for its intended market. That Giro helmet you bought cheap from CRC with British or Euro compliance will be identical to the same model sold in Australia with its compliance sticker. The sticker doesn't make it any better.


Sorry, not quite true. I will dig out the links later today, but the straps (specifically deformation/delamination of straps) are one area in which the AS requires a higher standard for compliance. Buckle strength is also mentioned. The opinions and research are out there, I just don't have time to find them at the moment. I believe a lot of o/s manufacture/sold helmets would comply, but the manufacturers way not want to wear the cost of submitting helmets for testing (ongoing compliance testing, too).

That said, would makers build helmets to pass ONE testing standard, then sell it worldwide? Thats the ideal, for them, to avoid supply/assembly issues in using differing components for different markets.

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Re: Do you really need an Aus helmet?

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:43 am

Dan wrote:
mitzikatzi wrote:Sarcasm doesn't have a font :shock:


Ah, but it does have a smiley... Image


I thought that was the "irony" smiley? :wink:
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