Kwinana PSP
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Kwinana PSP
Postby damonik » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:09 pm
That led to a simple thought - why isn't there any signage on the Kwinana freeway psp to let cyclists know that they should be riding single file? Is this something that BWA or BTAWA can approach Mainroads about?
Seems like a logical step to me.
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:35 pm
Cheap. Easy. WIll have some effect on a reasonalbe number of people so why not?damonik wrote:A thought I had this morning as I dodged the riders heading down the freeway, 2 and 3 abreast. My first thought was that they're annoying and dangerous, my second was well, perhaps they don't know the law.
That led to a simgple thought - why isn't there any signage on the Kwinana freeway psp to let cyclists know that they should be riding single file? Is this something that BWA or BTAWA can approach Mainroads about?
Seems like a logical step to me.
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby wellington_street » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:37 pm
"REMEMBER
ALWAYS RIDE SINGLE FILE
ON PATHS"
A bit like the signs you see around town "REMEMBER TURNING VEHICLES MUST GIVE WAY TO PEDESTRIANS" etc (obviously smaller for placement on the path)
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby Tornado » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:20 pm
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby Sprocket » Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:47 pm
And given that most cyclists seem to look more at the ground than sign height it would probably be more effective to paint on the path. I think it's a great idea. As the OP stated people breaking the rules is bound to be due more to ignorance of them rather than wilful disrespect of them. I confess I didn't know about the single file on PSP until being given a brochure at one of the Ride To Work breakfasts.Tornado wrote:You could even paint it on the path. Probably cheaper than signs. Handful of stencils and some pavement paint.
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby MarkG » Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:49 pm
Long story short, you can put up all the signs you want, but unless there's a way to enforce it, well the status quo will be maintained.
I look at the people who this very sign is aimed at, and I'd bet my left nut on it that they couldn't give a s**t about a sign.
While same will claim not to know the law, and some quite honestly choose to ignore it, most of it comes down to discretion which these people seem to lack.
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby moosterbounce » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:26 pm
I'll vote for any political party at the next election the extends noon laws to cyclists. Ride like an idiot, we'll impound your bike for a month. Ride to endanger others and we'll crush your bike. Now we're talkin'
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby Sprocket » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:32 pm
Fair callmoosterbounce wrote:Yeah, let's recommend this because the giant painted arrows on the psp really help both hoon cyclists and peds to keep left
But even if it works to educate non-hoon cyclists who don't know the rules that would be an improvement!
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby damonik » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:49 am
Thanks for your contribution. Does a giant arrow indicating that people keep left convey the same message as 'ride single file'? I'd argue not.moosterbounce wrote:Yeah, let's recommend this because the giant painted arrows on the psp really help both hoon cyclists and peds to keep left
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby moosterbounce » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:30 am
Definitely not, but those who ignore the keep left signage will ignore any other. Just my cynical opinion based on my observations.damonik wrote:Thanks for your contribution. Does a giant arrow indicating that people keep left convey the same message as 'ride single file'? I'd argue not.moosterbounce wrote:Yeah, let's recommend this because the giant painted arrows on the psp really help both hoon cyclists and peds to keep left
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby MarkG » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:59 pm
Like moosterbounce says, it's based on experience, and cynicism aside, it's hard to think any thing other than the contrary is going to happen.
I've been riding long enough and seen a lot of things out there in my life on the roads which not only make you shake your head in disbelief, but lead you to realise that people like this aren't going to pay attention to any rules put in place.
You can't really expect that someone who chooses to a) over take 3 guys around a bend b) rides on the wrong side of the road in a group ride c) rides two a breast on the PSP during peak hours and other selfish minded actions are going to suddenly see a written sign and go ' I better change what I do' it's an attitude thing. Most those guys above have been riding long enough to know what they should and shouldn't do out there, and choose to 'break the rules'.
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby damonik » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:11 pm
I still think some of the problem comes down to ignorance of the rules, at least some kind of signage might educate those who are actually ignorant and not just being tools.
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby roller » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:22 pm
have people hand them out to cyclists as they go past.
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby MilkRacer » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:24 pm
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby wellington_street » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:46 pm
Interpretive dance at key entrance points to the PSP?roller wrote:i think a strongly worded leaflet would do the trick.
have people hand them out to cyclists as they go past.
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby Lizzy » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:18 pm
I have some faith in that idea. Just every couple of km, a bike symbol with "single file" maybe. Although it might look like there are plenty who don't care, I would think plenty more just don't know.Sprocket wrote:And given that most cyclists seem to look more at the ground than sign height it would probably be more effective to paint on the path. I think it's a great idea. As the OP stated people breaking the rules is bound to be due more to ignorance of them rather than wilful disrespect of them. I confess I didn't know about the single file on PSP until being given a brochure at one of the Ride To Work breakfasts.Tornado wrote:You could even paint it on the path. Probably cheaper than signs. Handful of stencils and some pavement paint.
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby blkmcs » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:30 pm
Providing a safe cycling environment requires following the 3 Es of Engineering, Education and Enforcement.Lizzy wrote:I have some faith in that idea. Just every couple of km, a bike symbol with "single file" maybe. Although it might look like there are plenty who don't care, I would think plenty more just don't know.Sprocket wrote:And given that most cyclists seem to look more at the ground than sign height it would probably be more effective to paint on the path. I think it's a great idea. As the OP stated people breaking the rules is bound to be due more to ignorance of them rather than wilful disrespect of them. I confess I didn't know about the single file on PSP until being given a brochure at one of the Ride To Work breakfasts.Tornado wrote:You could even paint it on the path. Probably cheaper than signs. Handful of stencils and some pavement paint.
The Engineering is in place although not all of it is designed for safe cycling.
However there is precious little Education and signs on the path would go some way towards providing a little of this.
If there is precious little Education then there is next to nothing by way of Enforcement.
The installation of signs could be followed up by the issuing of infringements by either WA Police or local Council Rangers, sometimes Enforcement that hits the wallet is the most effective Education.
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby MarkG » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:43 pm
A case of 'expenditure not justifying what they bring in' or something.
A classic case was the the rule that came in a while back where cops could ping you for driving in the right lane - that didn't last.
It seems we've become such a nanny state that in a lot of cases, we need to be told to use common senses and discretion.
So sad when we need people to tell us to use our heads for such a simple act as riding a push bike.
I'm sure when my parents were growing up, they didn't need to be told such simple things as 'don't force others off the foot path' or 'don't ride two a breast when there's oncoming traffic'.
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby moosterbounce » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:01 pm
Love it. Chuck it in a musette and make people feel they are part of Le Tourroller wrote:i think a strongly worded leaflet would do the trick.
have people hand them out to cyclists as they go past.
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby find_bruce » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:49 pm
roller wrote:i think a strongly worded leaflet would do the trick.
have people hand them out to cyclists as they go past.
I'm with Roller, while they are reeling from the leaflet campaign then follow up with a whist drive, a car boot sale, some street theatre and possibly even some benefit concerts, okay. Now if that's not enough, I'm sorry then it is time for the T-shirtswellington_street wrote:Interpretive dance at key entrance points to the PSP?
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby nickobec » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:55 pm
The tools will only change their behaviour after collecting a 100kg rider coming the other way and then after spending 3 months in hospital, coming home to 100k bill because the other rider have a video camera and was off work for 3 months as a FIFO because off their injuries.
The arrogant will change their behaviour when most other people do and they are seen as outside normal behaviour
The ignorant, hopefully will change behaviour when the know the rules and the consequences.
I would like to see a few single file signs or stencils on the PSP from Mount Henry or earlier to the city.
I would also like to see at a few entry points to the PSP, big signs saying "You are entering a shared path, different road rules apply" and in smaller print
"as a cyclist this means:
1: giving way to pedestrians
2: Riding in single file;
3: keeping left; etc"
and
"as a pedestrain this means:
1: keeping left;
2: do not obstruct the path or other users;
etc"
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby wellington_street » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:57 pm
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:05 pm
Never fear - your (my) parents did just as much stupidity - it was just a different stupidity at that time.MarkG wrote:Enforcing it / policing it's going to be akin to pushing Showtime up hill I'm afraid.
A case of 'expenditure not justifying what they bring in' or something.
A classic case was the the rule that came in a while back where cops could ping you for driving in the right lane - that didn't last.
It seems we've become such a nanny state that in a lot of cases, we need to be told to use common senses and discretion.
So sad when we need people to tell us to use our heads for such a simple act as riding a push bike.
I'm sure when my parents were growing up, they didn't need to be told such simple things as 'don't force others off the foot path' or 'don't ride two a breast when there's oncoming traffic'.
Aah, common sense. Common sense is often wrong. (Does that indicate then that it is common for people to do wrong things. )
But much of what signs and being told does is put people on the same page. It IS often sensible that everyone does the same as those around them. It makes for less surprises.
There are lots of places and situation where there is nothing stupid or dangerous about riding two abreast. Many will be doing it safely while thinking it was legal.
Signage will not stop everyone. But some will fall into line just because they tend to obey rules. Even more will if it is policed and offenders sense a real possibility of being sanctioned.
You are probably right about "expenditure not justifying what they bring in' or something". Occasional blitzes have more benefit than steady but ultra-light policing.
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby orbeas » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:09 pm
Orbea Erandio Hybrid
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Re: Kwinana PSP
Postby MarkG » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:14 pm
ColinOldnCranky wrote:Never fear - your (my) parents did just as much stupidity - it was just a different stupidity at that time.MarkG wrote:Enforcing it / policing it's going to be akin to pushing Showtime up hill I'm afraid.
A case of 'expenditure not justifying what they bring in' or something.
A classic case was the the rule that came in a while back where cops could ping you for driving in the right lane - that didn't last.
It seems we've become such a nanny state that in a lot of cases, we need to be told to use common senses and discretion.
So sad when we need people to tell us to use our heads for such a simple act as riding a push bike.
I'm sure when my parents were growing up, they didn't need to be told such simple things as 'don't force others off the foot path' or 'don't ride two a breast when there's oncoming traffic'.
Aah, common sense. Common sense is often wrong. (Does that indicate then that it is common for people to do wrong things. )
But much of what signs and being told does is put people on the same page. It IS often sensible that everyone does the same as those around them. It makes for less surprises.
There are lots of places and situation where there is nothing stupid or dangerous about riding two abreast. Many will be doing it safely while thinking it was legal.
Signage will not stop everyone. But some will fall into line just because they tend to obey rules. Even more will if it is policed and offenders sense a real possibility of being sanctioned.
You are probably right about "expenditure not justifying what they bring in' or something". Occasional blitzes have more benefit than steady but ultra-light policing.
I'll admit I ride two a breast in certain situations - usually
a) south bound from Cockburn to Rockingham on my daily routine, when, at 6.00 am , I can count probably 5 cyclists in total that I will pass in the opp direction.
b) north bound in certain areas, but never anywhere north of Berrigan Dve and up past the Mt Henry.
It's a shame that someone has to damage or write off a bike or a person before they realise "maybe I should have slowed down or used my head".
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