Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby ausrandoman » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:05 pm

I see the Victorian government is making a song and dance about tailgaters.

What's it got to with cycling? What if some bright spark decided the law should also apply to one cyclist riding behind another?
Nobody younger than <del>27</del> 28 has experienced a month cooler than the 20th century average.
ausrandoman
 
Posts: 600
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:33 pm

by BNA » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:24 pm

BNA
 

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby il padrone » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:24 pm

Two major pronouncements on road safety by the Victorian Government in two days. Both of them are sort of motherhood promises for conservative middle Victorian voters - hammering drunk drivers and getting rid of tailgating. Hmm.....?

A government desperate to get some media image and bonus points with flagging polls, methinks.

This being the key to the story:

However, Mr Mulder had no word on when the tougher laws would be introduced or how they would be policed. Nor was there any funding for the new legislation or technology, he said.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/laser ... z2Lyou82BE





Anyway, this has little relevance to cycling:

1. Cyclists tailgating one another, while commonplace, is not renowned for severe injuries or frequent deaths on the roads.

2. There is no specific law outlawing a cyclist tailgating another cyclist. Only to prevent tailgating a car.

I don't foresee any major police actions on Beach Road peletons to break them up into individuals with > 2m clearance.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17513
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby ausrandoman » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:47 pm

il padrone wrote:
(snip)

1. Cyclists tailgating one another, while commonplace, is not renowned for severe injuries or frequent deaths on the roads.

(snip)




Last year, a commenter on this forum threatened to physically assault me for making this assertion. He might be in favour of anti-tailgating laws for cyclists.
Nobody younger than <del>27</del> 28 has experienced a month cooler than the 20th century average.
ausrandoman
 
Posts: 600
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:33 pm

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby il padrone » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:59 pm

Yeah, what?

So he knows of some rash of bicycle tailgating injuries that are clogging up our hospital resources? Or have there been a lot of cyclist tailgating deaths that the media has hidden from us (damned media - always has a conspiracy running :o )?
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17513
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby Marto » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:24 pm

il padrone wrote:Two major pronouncements on road safety by the Victorian Government in two days. ..




How can they be allowed to do that trick without wearing a helmet? Sure it's a bit of fun but it sets a bad example, is inconsiderate, and is dangerous to others in the vicinity. Sorry, but they should be made an example of before others emulate this behaviour in a copycat fashion.
Image
User avatar
Marto
 
Posts: 1316
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:08 am
Location: Brisbane

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:50 pm

Hmmm, all of a sudden new technology exists to cheaply and easily detect, record and invoice vehicle spacing and all of a sudden, tailgating becomes a new No1 road menace requiring "Tough New Laws"TM.

Call me cynical, but...
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011
User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 25275
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby il padrone » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:11 pm

Don't jump the gun Mulger. I'll believe this "new technology" when I see it :roll:

A quick Google search drew a blank, except for devices to prevent entry into secure areas by tailgating ie. to get through a secure entry; and other more speculative efforts to monitor and divert traffic flows and speeds. Nothing that looks anything like monitoring, identifying and enforcing.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17513
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:37 am

il padrone wrote:Don't jump the gun Mulger. I'll believe this "new technology" when I see it :roll:

A quick Google search drew a blank, except for devices to prevent entry into secure areas by tailgating ie. to get through a secure entry; and other more speculative efforts to monitor and divert traffic flows and speeds. Nothing that looks anything like monitoring, identifying and enforcing.


The linked article wrote:Number two; we're going to bring in legislation to support it; number three, we're going to be looking at the technology that's currently being used overseas for successful prosecutions to bring that technology to Victoria.


HERE you go... I vaguely recall reading about a fixed freeway version based on overhead cameras and spaced cateye reflectors mid lane.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011
User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 25275
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby knightsy » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:43 am

A miniature version would be good for proving just how close some cars pass to a bike's handlebars.
knightsy
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2012 11:22 pm

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby il padrone » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:56 am

Another day - another Victorian Government road safety "initiative" :roll:

Today it's P-platers banned from using hands-free mobile phones.
Yesterday the "crack-down" on tailgating drivers
Monday was the alcohol interlock devices for anyone over 0.05

Do I smell an election in the wings, a government trying desperately to hide other bad news, or just trying to build some cred for actually doing something??? Hmm....
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17513
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby Howzat » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:24 am

il padrone wrote:Another day - another Victorian Government road safety "initiative" :roll:

Look, the minister announced a definitive three point action plan.

1. He's going to do something.
2. He's going to legislate something.
3. He's going to look at something.

... and all the undeserving public can do is scoff and hoot.
User avatar
Howzat
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:08 pm
Location: Canberra

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby biker jk » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:15 pm

il padrone wrote:Another day - another Victorian Government road safety "initiative" :roll:

Today it's P-platers banned from using hands-free mobile phones.
Yesterday the "crack-down" on tailgating drivers
Monday was the alcohol interlock devices for anyone over 0.05

Do I smell an election in the wings, a government trying desperately to hide other bad news, or just trying to build some cred for actually doing something??? Hmm....


The interesting statistic was that 55,000 Victorians were issued with fines last year for illegal use of a mobile phone while driving. Perhaps confiscating the phone may be a more effective deterrent?
User avatar
biker jk
 
Posts: 2180
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby blkmcs » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:49 pm

il padrone wrote:...

Anyway, this has little relevance to cycling:

1. Cyclists tailgating one another, while commonplace, is not renowned for severe injuries or frequent deaths on the roads.

2. There is no specific law outlawing a cyclist tailgating another cyclist. Only to prevent tailgating a car....


In WA the Traffic Code is quite clear; there are no exemptions for cyclists following other cyclists.

109. Keeping a safe distance behind vehicles
Except when overtaking and passing, the driver of any vehicle
shall, when following another vehicle, keep such distance
behind it as will enable the driver to stop the vehicle in an
emergency with safety, and without running into the vehicle in
front of him or her.
Points: 1 Modified penalty: 2 PU
Too old to live, too slow to die.
User avatar
blkmcs
 
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:44 pm
Location: Bayswater, WA

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby il padrone » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:03 pm

blkmcs wrote:
il padrone wrote:...

Anyway, this has little relevance to cycling:

1. Cyclists tailgating one another, while commonplace, is not renowned for severe injuries or frequent deaths on the roads.

2. There is no specific law outlawing a cyclist tailgating another cyclist. Only to prevent tailgating a car....


In WA the Traffic Code is quite clear; there are no exemptions for cyclists following other cyclists.

109. Keeping a safe distance behind vehicles
Except when overtaking and passing, the driver of any vehicle
shall, when following another vehicle, keep such distance
behind it as will enable the driver to stop the vehicle in an
emergency with safety, and without running into the vehicle in
front of him or her.
Points: 1 Modified penalty: 2 PU

Yes, that is the safe distance rule applies for all. But not what the alleged rule change was all about.

Incidentally any riders in a peleton would be able to argue that they were riding in a co-operative style where they did not brake suddenly or unnecessarily, and any braking actions were signalled and warned verbally through the group. Hence all group-members should be able to stop safely (as all peletons do). Ring-ins of course are another thing.

There is a tailgating rule that specifically outlaws a cyclist from riding closer than 2m from the rear of a motor vehicle for more than 200m (Rule 255). This provides a much clearer requirement for a set distance. No such rule applies for motor vehicles driving very close (as there is also no such requirement for cyclists following another cyclist), and it is this type of rule that I believe the state government is talking about trying to introduce. The mechanics of spelling it out in legislation will prove too complex however as a say, 10m space will be fine at 40kmh, but dangerously close at 100kmh. And less than 5m would be quite safe for most cyclists at almost any speed, so they would have to exempt cyclists

Just my uneducated non-lawyer's view of the rules.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17513
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby ausrandoman » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:36 pm

il padrone wrote:
Incidentally any riders in a peleton would be able to argue that they were riding in a co-operative style where they did not brake suddenly or unnecessarily, and any braking actions were signalled and warned verbally through the group. Hence all group-members should be able to stop safely (as all peletons do). Ring-ins of course are another thing.

Just my uneducated non-lawyer's view of the rules.


Semi-trailer drivers sometimes drive in tandem with very little clearance so the rear truck saves fuel. It's illegal but it sometimes happens. I don't like their chances if they tried to argue
il padrone wrote: that they were [driving] in a co-operative style where they did not brake suddenly or unnecessarily, and any braking actions were signalled and warned verbally [by radio or hands-free phone] through the group. Hence all group-members should be able to stop safely (as all [bicycle] peletons do)


I then read on and found il padrone's signature line

il padrone wrote:"Remember, cyclists fare best when they act and are treated like drivers of vehicles"
Nobody younger than <del>27</del> 28 has experienced a month cooler than the 20th century average.
ausrandoman
 
Posts: 600
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:33 pm

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby il padrone » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:53 pm

ausrandoman wrote:I then read on and found il padrone's signature line

il padrone wrote:"Remember, cyclists fare best when they act and are treated like drivers of vehicles"

Yep, certainly agree with that. There are a limited number of specific rules for cyclists that are somewhat different - does not change the basic principle however.

The rule on safe distance is not one of these however. The key thing about it is:

keep such distance behind it as will enable the driver to stop the vehicle in an emergency with safety, and without running into the vehicle in front of him or her.



Cyclists riding in a peleton should certainly always do this. If you are not confident that you cannot stop safely (with your cycling mates) then you should not be there. Equally lead riders in a peleton should always indicate hazards and call when stopping or slowing. Pretty basic really.

Semi-trailers driving in a close convoy should also be doing the same. I kinda doubt a 'blind' truckie (close behind another) carrying 30 tonnes at 110kmh would go anywhere near being able to stop in time when the brakelights go red in front. But I'm no truckie.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17513
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby MrDerrickC » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:17 pm

How will tail gating be managed during peak hour traffic in the CBD? :roll:
Image
MrDerrickC
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:39 pm
Location: Perth CBD

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby trailgumby » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:30 pm

il padrone wrote:Another day - another Victorian Government road safety "initiative" :roll:

Today it's P-platers banned from using hands-free mobile phones.
Yesterday the "crack-down" on tailgating drivers
Monday was the alcohol interlock devices for anyone over 0.05

Do I smell an election in the wings, a government trying desperately to hide other bad news, or just trying to build some cred for actually doing something??? Hmm....


Sounds like another recent Labor state ex-government I seem to recall. They must have all gone to the same School of Politics when they did their degrees. :lol:

Eventually the population will start laughing at the joke, and they'll be annihilated at the polls. Which will be a setback for our democracy - we need a reasonably strong opposition to avoid the excesses of excessive power.
"People have a right to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Evidence must be located, not created, and opinions not backed by evidence cannot be given much weight." -- James W Loewen

http://www.facebook.com/Drive2WorkDay
User avatar
trailgumby
 
Posts: 9925
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:30 pm
Location: Northern Beaches, Sydney

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby il padrone » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:06 am

Fourth day..... fourth public road law pronouncement !!

Very puzzling, whatever is going on?? All what would be classed as 'motherhood' actions though.

Now I am left wondering what it will be tomorrow to make it the full quinella......... Ah! I know - registration for those dangerous damned cyclists :idea: :lol: :roll: Watch the votes roll in boys!
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17513
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:42 am

il padrone wrote:Fourth day..... fourth public road law pronouncement !!

Very puzzling, whatever is going on??

Indeed, I smell deflection in the air...
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
London Boy 29/12/2011
User avatar
Mulger bill
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 25275
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Sunbury Vic

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby Summernight » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:30 am

I forgot about the Vic Lib's week-long introduce-a-new-rule-per-day blitz was happening. Silly me. I thing you're actually onto something about this. A fourth day in a row is pretty spectacular.

Whatever are they trying to cover up?
User avatar
Summernight
 
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby il padrone » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:54 am

And 'F' is for Friday.... and funding (allegedly, 'cos it's all coming from TAC not the government's pockets :roll: )

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/billi ... 2fabt.html
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 17513
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby Summernight » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:08 pm

Always good to end a spin week by throwing money at people!

Although taking the money from TAC is a REALLY bad idea. Isn't that money used to compensate accident VICTIMS? From what I've heard the TAC is already stingy enough with handing out to legitimate road accident victims when these people should be fully compensated for their medical expenses etc. Especially if it wasn't their fault they were injured.

And a $1 billion loss last year? Probably caused by the government ripping out funds through their government 'dividends' fraud like they did with Melbourne Water Corp and the Victorian WorkSafe Authority etc.

But what else do we get from this government? :roll:
User avatar
Summernight
 
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: Tailgating and opening cans of worms.

Postby rifraf » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:50 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Hmmm, all of a sudden new technology exists to cheaply and easily detect, record and invoice vehicle spacing and all of a sudden, tailgating becomes a new No1 road menace requiring "Tough New Laws"TM.

Call me cynical, but...

Your cynical Mulger bill :wink:
Surly Ogre, Carry Freedom Y-frame Trailer
User avatar
rifraf
 
Posts: 2463
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:55 pm
Location: Two Rocks, WA


Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Support BNA
Click for online shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Cycling Express Cycling Express
Ebay Ebay AU
ProBikeKit ProBikeKit UK
Evans Cycles Evans Cycles UK
JensonUSA Jenson USA
JensonUSA Competitive Cyclist