Wheel building

Vintage, yesteryear and retro biking

Wheel building

Postby Ph billet » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:25 pm

I am using Mavic open 4 CD on my road bike and after 20 years are looking a bit ordinary, can anyone recommend a bike shop in the Sydney area that builds wheels and can supply Mavic rims (latest version ) or even better NOS open 4 CDs (dreaming :D ) I want to use my 7400 Dura Ace 8 speed cassette hubs.
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by BNA » Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:33 pm

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Re: Wheel building

Postby Dan » Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:33 pm

I have some vgc (not nos) 36h CDs if that suits? In bne though.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Ph billet » Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:47 pm

Thanks but my hubs are 32 spoke and it seems freight on bulky rims makes it better to get locally.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby rollin » Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:59 pm

Check your local and ask how long they've been building wheels last thing you want is a kid in skinny jeans to build them up,
Jordan at ride on workshop Balgowlah builds good wheels...
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Discodan » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:55 am

The best wheel builder in Sydney is definitely Greg at TWE wheels in Newtown. I've not used him myself but everyone raves about the quality, price and that he builds exactly the right wheels to suit you (admittedly more relevant in competition)

http://www.twebikewheels.com.au/
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Re: Wheel building

Postby spirito » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:19 pm

Discodan wrote:The best wheel builder in Sydney is definitely Greg at TWE wheels in Newtown. I've not used him myself ....


What a recommendation !! :roll:
Cranky Jim wrote: God did not invent gears. Men invented gears ... because we are not gods.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby munga » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:39 pm

lol. who's setting up the annual sydney wheelbuilding comp?
pitty43 wrote:Thanks all for your help. Better change my Gumtree add now.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/retroclassiccycling/
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Paddles » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:32 am

Building wheels is not a dark art, it's surprisingly easy and when you've finished a lovely set of hoops i personally find it very satisfying (does this make me some sort of sicko). There's a few spoke calculators out there on the web, Mr Sheldon Brown's ones work ok. It is a very tedious yet rewarding job and any "kid in skinny jeans" would be able to do it with a minimum of fuss as long as he has his head screwed on. I'm a rank amateur and still stuff up the leading spoke thing, but all you have to do is strip it, move them around and start again, it's not exactly the end of the world.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Dan » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:46 am

Painting a house is not a dark art either, but you can tell the work of a good painter from that of a poor one.

The wheels velo13 built for me are better than the ones I built myself. Purely because he has 15 something years experience and I have 2.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby humanbeing » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:27 pm

Peter Bundy built my wheels - Ambrosio Excellence rims with Campagnolo Chorus hubs, and they are awesome.
http://www.peterbundycycles.com.au/
I note that the Bike Shed Mortdale has a wide range of Mavic rims.
Have a great ride,
Peter
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Paddles » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:22 pm

Hi Dan, out of interest what do you reckon makes them feel better? I've only ever had wheels that were made in the same sweatshop factory that the bike was built or wheels that I've built myself, I've never used ones built by a professional wheel builder. Please don't interpret this as a pizz pull, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts. Do they just seem to spin truer or better?
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Ph billet » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:17 pm

Ended up going back to my old local bike shop,he found some Mavic Open Pro rims in gray anodised Finnish they look very much like the Open 4cd but with a machined brake area,the guys there cleaned the hubs,new SS spokes and build up the wheels,great job and they look sweet on the bike with the red side wall Michelin Pro 4 tyres.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Dan » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:51 pm

Paddles wrote:Hi Dan, out of interest what do you reckon makes them feel better? I've only ever had wheels that were made in the same sweatshop factory that the bike was built or wheels that I've built myself, I've never used ones built by a professional wheel builder. Please don't interpret this as a pizz pull, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts. Do they just seem to spin truer or better?


Spin the same, sound the same, tension is the same - the difference is that I trust Velo13's 100%, and I trust mine 99%. Experience. It may well be false - I might, for example, have inadvertently built a wheel just as well, but if you had the choice between a guy that'd been doing it for 15 years or a guy that'd been doing it for 2 years, who would you choose?

I'm not saying don't build your own - on the contrary I found it extremely satisfying - just that you need to be prepared for failures in the beginning.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Paddles » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:32 am

Yeah, fair call Dan, I've not had a problem with anything I've built yet, but that being said I don't do mega kilometres either and share riding between a couple of bikes. The main problems I have had is during the build and not starting off on the right spoke hole and then not realising it till I get the wheel fully assembled and ready to tension, it's then a case of pull it all apart and start again.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Dan » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:22 pm

I always have to redo at least one step ;)
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Re: Wheel building

Postby rogerrabbit » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:56 pm

If you are building with 32 or 36 spokes and decent strong rims, building them yourself is pretty easy. Make sure you have good spokes and the length is right (within a mm or so).

I always look to get the spokes tightened up as evenly as possible in the first place by visually judging the end of the spoke in the nipple and trying to get them all the same. Next step is evenly tightening up the wheel one turn at a time until they feel right (compare to other wheels if you don't have experience) Adjust the dish on the back wheel as you go through this process by tightening up the drive side a couple of extra turns at the start of the tightening process. Once at a good tension, time to true.

I normally start with getting the side to side movement within a couple of mm and then focus entirely on the up/down movement. Once the wheel is round (up/down wise) I then go back to side to side, making sure for every tightening of spokes on one side there is an equal loosening of spokes on the other side. Never just loosen or tighten one side to move the rim or you will end up out of round again.

A 3-ply 36h wheel with good spokes and rim is a very strong and forgiving thing. Even if you are not a great wheel builder it won't suddenly fail on you.

On the other hand, a wheel built with 20 spokes and massive spoke tensions, that it something I am not willing to have a go at. The first spoke I have ever broken was a few months ago on a 20 spoke rear wheel, and it left me stranded at West Head with a very buckled wheel. Break a spoke on a 36h wheel, no big deal, tie up the spoke and keep riding.

Roger
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Paddles » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:46 pm

That's pretty much my theory roger and I built my wheels the exact way you describe, I'm no racer, just a recreational rider and my road bike has 36 hole campagnolo omega 19's with triple butted stainless spokes onto some mid-late 80's NOS shimano 105 hubs, i am a 115kg kid and our roads are krap around here with plenty of bumps and they seem to be hanging in there so far. I use 700Cx28 tyres for that extra bit of cushion too.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby rogerrabbit » Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:48 pm

I built up a set of 36h Ultegra 6700 hubs onto Mavic GEL330 tubular rims today. I used Sapim 2.0/1.8 butted spokes, brass nipples and top end Vittoria EVO CX tyres. Apart from the tyres this is hardly a lightweight choice of components and will be a very robust set of wheels. What has really surprised me is the weight compared to my modern wheels.

Against a set of Shimano RS80 C50 wheels with top end Ultremo ZX tyres and latex tubes, the Ultegra 36 spoke tubular wheelset is 200g lighter than the C50s. (Same cassette on both)

Against the super light Giant/DT Swiss P-SLR-1 wheels with Hutchison Fusion 3 tubeless tyres, the Ultegra Tubular front wheel was only 10g heavier. I didn't compare the back wheel as the P-SLR-1 rear didn't have a cassette fitted, but I expect the P-SLR-1 will be lighter again due to an alloy freehub. I will weigh them tomorrow.

I am sure the new wheels are more aerodynamic and rigid, but after breaking spokes on modern low spoke count wheels, I am wondering where the advantage is for the weekend ride? It seems the low spoke count rims weigh more than the saving in spoke weight.

Next project might be a set of light modern hubs with a pair of 36h Fiamme Ergal tubular rims (280g or so) and some 2.0/1.5 spokes.

Cheers
Roger
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Re: Wheel building

Postby find_bruce » Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:00 pm

My park tools tension meter arrived yesterday so I put it to work today. Made it easy to get a nice even low tension, gradually built up to what I was after, then true as per roger rabbits post above. Seems to have worked out ok so will see how it rides
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:24 pm

rogerrabbit wrote:I built up a set of 36h Ultegra 6700 hubs onto Mavic GEL330 tubular rims today. I used Sapim 2.0/1.8 butted spokes, brass nipples and top end Vittoria EVO CX tyres. Apart from the tyres this is hardly a lightweight choice of components and will be a very robust set of wheels.


Hey Roger, good solid spec there. Sure there is lighter, but those are certainly not heavy components (well, the hubs are not light, but not bad). A GEL330 was considered light, but not super light in it's day (GEL280s were a little scary to ride, OR10s are ridiculous).

Tubs are always a fair bit lighter than clinchers, there is just less metal required. I ride a 24/28h set of Velocity A23 clinchers at the moment that weigh in at 1560g. By swapping the rims to tubs of similar strength and stiffness, I could drop that to 1440g. Additionally, tubs tend to be lighter than tyres, tubes and rim tape.

But (as they say), everything in life is a compromise. I am happy with the convenience of clinchers for riding around where I live.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby rogerrabbit » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:13 pm

After 5 months and about 1500km I have had no punctures and the Vittoria CX Evo Corsa 25mm tyres don't even have a single cut and the rear is less than half worn. I am very happy to be back on tubs and I am enjoying the supple ride and sharper cornering. The rims are not as good on the brakes as a modern rim, but not bad. The light rims/ tyres also make the bike noticeably more agile compared to my c50 wheels, which are substantially heavier.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Jean » Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:14 am

rogerrabbit wrote:I built up a set of 36h Ultegra 6700 hubs onto Mavic GEL330 tubular rims today. I used Sapim 2.0/1.8 butted spokes, brass nipples and top end Vittoria EVO CX tyres. Apart from the tyres this is hardly a lightweight choice of components and will be a very robust set of wheels. What has really surprised me is the weight compared to my modern wheels.


It's not a very sensible plan, but I must admit I'm feeling a bit of need to build some tubs. I've never ridden them and don't race on the road anymore but I think I just want to try them and see what I've been missing. Mmmm, Ambrosio tubular rims in silver 8). Under $80 for a pair of Montreal rims (plus shipping), more mmmm.
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Re: Wheel building

Postby ironhanglider » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:16 pm

Jean wrote:
rogerrabbit wrote:I built up a set of 36h Ultegra 6700 hubs onto Mavic GEL330 tubular rims today. I used Sapim 2.0/1.8 butted spokes, brass nipples and top end Vittoria EVO CX tyres. Apart from the tyres this is hardly a lightweight choice of components and will be a very robust set of wheels. What has really surprised me is the weight compared to my modern wheels.


It's not a very sensible plan, but I must admit I'm feeling a bit of need to build some tubs. I've never ridden them and don't race on the road anymore but I think I just want to try them and see what I've been missing. Mmmm, Ambrosio tubular rims in silver 8). Under $80 for a pair of Montreal rims (plus shipping), more mmmm.


I'll lend you my crit wheels for a while if you like. I built them cheaply from second hand rims so I'm not too scared for their welfare. The 'tubular experience' people talk about mostly comes from the tyres IMO.

Cheers,

Cameron
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Re: Wheel building

Postby Velo13 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:59 am

ironhanglider wrote:
Jean wrote:
rogerrabbit wrote:Apart from the tyres this is hardly a lightweight choice of components and will be a very robust set of wheels. What has really surprised me is the weight compared to my modern wheels.


It's not a very sensible plan, but I must admit I'm feeling a bit of need to build some tubs. I've never ridden them and don't race on the road anymore but I think I just want to try them and see what I've been missing. Mmmm, Ambrosio tubular rims in silver 8). Under $80 for a pair of Montreal rims (plus shipping), more mmmm.


I'll lend you my crit wheels for a while if you like. I built them cheaply from second hand rims so I'm not too scared for their welfare. The 'tubular experience' people talk about mostly comes from the tyres IMO.


Well, you can't have the tyres without the rims! Perhaps the wide rim "clinchular" option is worth persuing? Do a search on Velocity A23, H+Son Archetype/TB14 or Pacenti SL23. These are clincher rims with a wider profile, that enable better sidewall support on 23 or 25c tyres. The ride is much closer (grip, comfort) to a tubular. There is heaps of guff about it on the web.

That said, it is not quite the same as a tubular, but certainly a vast improvement on 20mm wide rims like Opens, Fusions, Aeroheads (well most 700c rims and factory wheels actually).

These days, I build about 90% of new 700c alloy builds using these wider rims ...
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Re: Wheel building

Postby ironhanglider » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:45 pm

Not one of my better days at expressing myself.

These are retro low profile tubular rims that I built up with cheap 32H Novotech hubs and some spokes that I had lying around. (I had to build the front 1 cross to be able to use the length I had) so the wheels don't owe me much.

The tyres on them are ok but they don't set the world on fire, Vittoria Corsa CX on the back and a Vredestein Volante Tri Comp on the front. Better tyres would offer Jean the best chance to know what he's missing.

Since we have a crit circuit here in Canberra my ideal crit wheels wouldn't be much different to these, cheap, and light (aero is for people who sit on the front) but I would probably put some more exotic tyres on since punctures are rare.

Sadly I'm not able to race the mid-week crits in summer so the wheels don't get a lot of use.

Seriously Jean you are welcome to borrow them for long enough to make your mind up.

Cheers,

Cameron
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