Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:52 am

Ok, well I found something interesting while I was looking for something else:

Low-fat diets have long been touted as the key to a healthy weight and to good health. But the evidence just isn’t there: Over the past 30 years in the U.S., the percentage of calories from fat in people’s diets has gone down, but obesity rates have skyrocketed. (1,2) Carefully conducted clinical trials have found that following a low-fat diet does not make it any easier to lose weight than following a moderate- or high-fat diet. In fact, study volunteers who follow moderate- or high-fat diets lose just as much weight, and in some studies a bit more, as those who follow low-fat diets. (3,4) And when it comes to disease prevention, low-fat diets don’t appear to offer any special benefits. (5)


http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-causes/diet-and-weight/

(1) Willett WC, Leibel RL. Dietary fat is not a major determinant of body fat. Am J Med. 2002;113 Suppl 9B:47S-59S.

(2) Melanson EL, Astrup A, Donahoo WT. The relationship between dietary fat and fatty acid intake and body weight, diabetes, and the metabolic syndrome. Ann Nutr Metab. 2009;55:22(9-43.

(3) Sacks FM, Bray GA, Carey VJ, et al. Comparison of weight-loss diets with different compositions of fat, protein, and carbohydrates. N Engl J Med. 2009;360:859-73.

(4) Shai I, Schwarzfuchs D, Henkin Y, et al. Weight loss with a low-carbohydrate, Mediterranean, or low-fat diet. N Engl J Med. 2008;359:229-41.

(5) Howard BV, Manson JE, Stefanick ML, et al. Low-fat dietary pattern and weight change over 7 years: the Women’s Health Initiative Dietary Modification Trial. JAMA. 2006;295:39-49.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby winstonw » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:12 am

The % of fat in the diet might have gone down, but

- total Calories have gone up - portion sizes are larger, less home prepared meals are consumed. It's possible we're eating more fat than 30 years ago.
Researchers are good at discovering a little about a little, a little at a time; but when it comes to joining the dots, they often overgeneralize with an indiscrete choice of words, even at Harvard.

- energy expenditure has gone down, and the benefits of a low fat diet will be offset by increased bodyfat.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:24 am

Foods used to have higher fat, when everyone went "Low Fat!!!!", they started adding sugar to stop them tasting like crap. Anything high GI will spike insulin which will send it all to fat stores. Fructose reduces satiety, so people still eat to satiety and have even more to store to fat. Plus, all the high-GI stuff in everyday foods combined with excess fat and no exercise reduces the effectiveness of insulin so we become insulin resistant... and on and on. Throw in lots of "Being fat is O.K!" messages via TV, and it's just normal to be overweight.

Have Governments around the world worked out that obesity and early death is better for the economy than healthy and long-living? Or is it big-business? If it's neither, why haven't they banned sugar from soft drinks, which is a major source of calories for teenagers and seems to be the main driver for the explosion of Type-2 diabetes in China and India?
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby simonn » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:37 am

Further to Twizzle's post, there is a three part doco called "The Men Who Made Us Fat". Looks as if it is on youtube.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:02 pm

twizzle wrote:Have Governments around the world worked out that obesity and early death is better for the economy than healthy and long-living? Or is it big-business? If it's neither, why haven't they banned sugar from soft drinks, which is a major source of calories for teenagers and seems to be the main driver for the explosion of Type-2 diabetes in China and India?


Until they ban cigarettes, there's no hope.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby sogood » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:40 pm

twizzle wrote:Anything high GI will spike insulin which will send it all to fat stores.

Quite sensationalistic! :roll:
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:56 pm

sogood wrote:
twizzle wrote:Anything high GI will spike insulin which will send it all to fat stores.

Quite sensationalistic! :roll:


And incorrect. But it was an off-the-cuff remark. What I should have said was "In my understanding, anything which causes an insulin spike will then send it all to fat stores... unless you are an athlete with depleted glycogen stores in which case any excess will go to fat."

If you'd like to value-add to the discussion, that would be good. Constructive criticism is always welcome.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby durianrider » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:43 am

casual_cyclist wrote:Ok, well I found something interesting while I was looking for something else:

Low-fat diets have long been touted as the key to a healthy weight and to good health. But the evidence just isn’t there: Over the past 30 years in the U.S., the percentage of calories from fat in people’s diets has gone down, but obesity rates have skyrocketed. (1,2) Carefully conducted clinical trials have found that following a low-fat diet does not make it any easier to lose weight than following a moderate- or high-fat diet. In fact, study volunteers who follow moderate- or high-fat diets lose just as much weight, and in some studies a bit more, as those who follow low-fat diets. (3,4) And when it comes to disease prevention, low-fat diets don’t appear to offer any special benefits. (5)


http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-causes/diet-and-weight/

(1) Willett WC, Leibel RL. Dietary fat is not a major determinant of body fat. Am J Med. 2002;113 Suppl 9B:47S-59S.

(2) Melanson EL, Astrup A, Donahoo WT. The relationship between dietary fat and fatty acid intake and body weight, diabetes, and the metabolic syndrome. Ann Nutr Metab. 2009;55:22(9-43.

(3) Sacks FM, Bray GA, Carey VJ, et al. Comparison of weight-loss diets with different compositions of fat, protein, and carbohydrates. N Engl J Med. 2009;360:859-73.

(4) Shai I, Schwarzfuchs D, Henkin Y, et al. Weight loss with a low-carbohydrate, Mediterranean, or low-fat diet. N Engl J Med. 2008;359:229-41.

(5) Howard BV, Manson JE, Stefanick ML, et al. Low-fat dietary pattern and weight change over 7 years: the Women’s Health Initiative Dietary Modification Trial. JAMA. 2006;295:39-49.



Im confused. ALL the nations that eat a high carb diet are slim. When their economies allow the main population to afford more animal products they get fatter. China, India etc. Anyone that travels these nations will see that the 'rich' people are usually overweight as they can now afford the money it takes to eat steak dinners vs rice and vegetable dinners. Last time I checked there was more fat in a steak dinner than a big hearty bowl of steamed rice and mixed veg. Maybe Im wrong though and the reason Chinese people are so thin is that they live on steak and eggs vs steamed rice and veg as their traditional daily meals. In Asia they use animal products as condiments. In the west we use animal products as the main caloric source. I could be wrong though. I guess in another 10 years there might be a study to show the truth. In the mean time..

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Fat consumption is going down though. KFC and McDonalds are booming and they DEFINITELY serve low fat high carb meals. I mean a bucket of fried chicken is DEFINITELY high carb low fat food as is big macs. People are eating less fried chicken and more steamed rice. What is that chain of fast food resturants that only serve vegan rice and vegetable dishes? You know the one, they are making billions of $ of profit each year. They are fueling the obesity epidemic and thankfully we have low fat high carb resturant chains like McDonalds, KFC and the local fried fish and chip shop to keep aussie waistlines slim. EVERYBODY knows fried fatty food is very slimming. Its the fruit and steamed rice you have to watch out for.

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby durianrider » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:51 am

EVERYBODY knows someone that just lives on steamed rice, fruit, juice, water, vegetables, steamed corn etc for a long time and they got obese from it. All they have to do to slim down is load up on the KFC, steak, eggs, protein powders and they will slim right down like the average aussie. Australian's hate eating steak and thats why 67% of us are overweight/obese. We are addicted to fruit and steamed starch dishes. Any Friday night at the pub will prove this. You will have 250lb customers guzzling back rice bowls topped with low sodium, oil free toppings. If you ask for a steak people will look at you side ways. Everyone knows the most popular eateries in Australia specialize in fruitarian dishes. The sooner Australia stops its addiction to the high carb low fat vegan diet, the sooner we will lose the excess visceral fat.

The reason some of my asian friends have gotten fat is they have ditched their traditional diet of steak and eggs and replaced it with high carb low fat plant based meals. Especially white rice. That is fueling the obesity epidemic of obese asians living in Australia- steamed white rice!. Any Australia moving to asia will quickly lose that traditional lean slim fit aussie body if they live on a diet of rice and vegetables. Thats what the sumo wrestlers eat. In fact if you refuse to go high carb low fat vegan the sumo stable will kick you out. If they see you sneaking fried steak and eggs they will kick you out as these foods are very slimming. Its a myth the traditional sumo meal aka Chanko-nabe is high in animal fat and protein. Its actually made from fruit and rice. They keep all the animal products and oils out as they want the sumo's really bulking up.

Its also a myth that carbs have 4cals per gram and fat is 9cals per gram.

Fat is called fat cos it makes you slim.
Carbs are called carbs cos they make you fat.

I need to lose some more weight to get faster on the climbs so Im gonna eat lots of animal body fat to help lose my body fat. If you get mud on your shoes, just use more mud to get it off.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby sogood » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:55 am

durianrider wrote:The reason some of my asian friends have gotten fat is they have ditched their traditional diet of steak and eggs and replaced it with high carb low fat plant based meals. Especially white rice. That is fueling the obesity epidemic of obese asians living in Australia- steamed white rice!

With that, you really need to go back to bananas! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby durianrider » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:05 pm

twizzle wrote:Foods used to have higher fat, when everyone went "Low Fat!!!!", they started adding sugar to stop them tasting like crap. Anything high GI will spike insulin which will send it all to fat stores. Fructose reduces satiety, so people still eat to satiety and have even more to store to fat. Plus, all the high-GI stuff in everyday foods combined with excess fat and no exercise reduces the effectiveness of insulin so we become insulin resistant... and on and on. Throw in lots of "Being fat is O.K!" messages via TV, and it's just normal to be overweight.

Have Governments around the world worked out that obesity and early death is better for the economy than healthy and long-living? Or is it big-business? If it's neither, why haven't they banned sugar from soft drinks, which is a major source of calories for teenagers and seems to be the main driver for the explosion of Type-2 diabetes in China and India?


I agree. Look at all those longterm fruitarians on youtube. They are all overweight massively.

The reason type 2 diabetes has exploded in China & India is due to these nations starting to eat rice. Never before in history did these nations live on rice. I mean the traditional Indian and Chinese staples have always been fatty cuts of meat. Maybe a spoonful of rice now and then as a condiment. What has happened is these economies have gotten stronger so more people can afford to eat meals based on rice. Same with sugar. Sugar is horribly expensive and only the rich used to be able to afford it. In India sugar is like 20$ a kg and meat is only 20c a kg. Its a good thing McDonalds/KFC are booming over there as they will help build healthy eating patterns. McDonalds is the largest supplier of beef in the world and people that frequent McDonalds are famously known to get slim and attractive. Same with KFC- largest supplier of chicken meat in the world and helping people get slimmer the more they eat it. Fat people eat steamed rice and veg, skinny people gorge on KFC.

If only people in India and China started eating steak dishes earlier they wouldnt have had to learn the hard lesson that diets based on rice = obesity and diabetes. Same with sugar, I mean drinking sugar cane juice is a really new concept in these nations. They used to just drink liquid lard as that is very slimming as it is full of healthy fats.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:07 pm

So many words for so little content. About as useful as posting pictures of cats as a response to any line of discussion.

Durian - how about you go an have a nice lie down and contemplate whether or not you are suffering from neural damage. Don't feel rushed, take plenty of time.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:22 pm

twizzle wrote:About as useful as posting pictures of cats as a response to any line of discussion.


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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:40 pm

If memory serves me correctly, I large percentage of Indians are vegetarians, primarily due to religious reasons. And cows are sacred. So maybe beef isn't an option there.

Oh, bumped into this article about beef and cycling

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby vander » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:45 pm

YAWN!!!!!

Does anyone actually know about testing for type 2 diabetes, I cant see it having been around for that long. If it is only just becoming a common thing in those countries could that by why it is getting more prevalent?

Additionally rich people are more often fatter because they eat IN EXCESS and the wrong sort of foods plus generally they do less, they get others to do the work for the. Noone is saying steamed rice and veges are bad for you, just you dont have to only eat that, you can also include other foods for a more health BALANCED diet.

Seriously you talk so much crap.

Durian what is your peak 5sec power? (try and not lie)

EDIT: I feel I need to mention I am trying to ascertain whether this greatest diet ever (that somehow still needs supplementation) that durian is spruiking effects peak power.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:32 pm

Type 2 diabetes has a known and very strong association with obesity. Having a body weight of over 120% of desirable is a major risk factor. However the body doesn't care how it gets fat. Too much of any food can make you obese. Sure it's easier if there are fast food outlets on every corner. This is part of the reason countries following western-style diets show increasing rates. Genetics play an important part as well; some ethic groups are more susceptible. In the US, it's more common in people of Hispanic, Native American, African American, Asian American, or Pacific Islander descent. Clearly this is not a simple matter of diet.

Once again, it is worth stating that there are a range of healthy diets; many of which do not consist of simply rice and vegetables.

Reference for those interested: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1 ... w2aab6b2b4
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:19 pm

Asians and Indians tend to central obesity first. Insulin resistance. Type 2 diabetes. China is heaving for a diabetes epidemic, and the finger is being pointed at the rapid spread of soft drinks. Rates are similar to those of the US, and it's the teenage rates which are being highlighted.


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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby vander » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:27 pm

I do know what Tpye 2 diabetes is. I was wondering what the testing is like because medically those countries are behind the western world and it was only being routinely tested for in the western world in recent times. Yes they did the urine tests in the past but it is far more common to get tested for it in recent times. People often dont look past the obvious and discover" wow prevelance is rising, oh testing only became routine 10yrs ago maybe people had it before and just didnt get tested for it, maybe that could be it". Not saying that is the case for this as I dont know however it is a possibility.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:38 pm

Fair call. I don't have the articles to hand, but I will have a look.


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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:43 pm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 174057.htm

Something to start with.

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:49 pm

vander wrote:People often dont look past the obvious and discover" wow prevelance is rising, oh testing only became routine 10yrs ago maybe people had it before and just didnt get tested for it, maybe that could be it". Not saying that is the case for this as I dont know however it is a possibility.


Any research paper that didn't take this into account wouldn't get published. The increasing incidence is well documented and is real, just like the rise in allergies.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Zynster » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:54 pm

I thought I'd add a few things to this discussion.

Vegetarianism is a relatively recent phenomenon. There are no known instances of vegetarian primitive societies. Humans evolved eating meat, veges, fruit, nuts and seeds. This is our native omnivore diet.

Yet, in studies vegetarians come out healthier. Why? It's because generally they eat a better quality of food. They eat more fresh whole foods, often organic and they largely avoid the fast food jungle that your standard omnivore lives on.

Studies have also shown meat consumption to be associated with all sorts of nasties. This is despite the fact that meat has been a staple of humans since the start. Why? Maybe its because the quality of meat we get these days is crap. Cows live in sht, are pumped full of antibiotics and hormones, and are fattened up on grains which make them sick (cows native diet is grass, not grains). No wonder the meat from these animals is toxic.

Eating a high carb diet is the worst way to lose weight. You will have to run a calorie deficit and that's very hard to do on a high carb diet. Carbs are so addictive. So addictive in fact that the number one reason that most people can't lose weight is the unwillingness to give them up. "I couldn't live with out my <insert high carb food here>".

So you're looking at a low carb diet if you want to lose weight. Forget Atkins. He's old school. Instead check out the Paleo diet. Check out information from people like Mark Sisson, Jamie Scott, Dave Asprey, Rob Wolf and Gary Taubes.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:04 pm

Zynster wrote:the number one reason that most people can't lose weight is the unwillingness to give them up. "I couldn't live with out my <insert high carb food here>".


The issue I have with the paleo diet is just this. Swap <insert grain based product here> into your sentence and you have another recipe for failure. There is no need to give up grains as part of a healthy diet.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:11 pm

Venus62 wrote:
Zynster wrote:the number one reason that most people can't lose weight is the unwillingness to give them up. "I couldn't live with out my <insert high carb food here>".


The issue I have with the paleo diet is just this. Swap <insert grain based product here> into your sentence and you have another recipe for failure. There is no need to give up grains as part of a healthy diet.


Well... maybe not give up, but it depends how much you eat. Sedentary people aren't exposed to too many nasties, but giving up wheat seems to be becoming very common in the pro peleton. Too much of anything is probably unhealthy, and if you were to try and make up 10,000+ calories of cycling every week just using grain-based products, you might start to suffer. IBS being one of the reported causes of cyclists giving up wheat.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Jesmol » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:54 pm

As someone who has metabolic syndrome i can add my experience to the matter. I had a pretty poor diet, most evening meals were pasta/rice with a curry/pasta sauce. Lunch consisted of whatever i wanted to go out and get, subway, Vietnamese roll, sushi , lots of crap, brekkie was toast with peanut butter or nutella and a latte. Then grazed on the charity snack box most afternoons
When i had my glucose tolerance test my insulin level went through the roof, BSL didnt move, so have pretty bad insulin resistance but not full blown T2 diabetes
Dr put me onto a dietician, who gave me a guideline of no more than 4 serves of carbs (15g per serve) in a main meal, no more than 2 serves between meals for snacks
I also made the decision to get on a bike, averaging about 2 hrs a week when I could, after 20 years of no real exercise this was not really easy.
However it has worked, i dropped to 96 kg(from 103) in about 4 months
Since then i've ramped up the riding, watching what I eat using my fitness pal, and am now sitting at 86kg, targetting to get to below 80 (im 174cm)
So from my perspective a better health outcome can still be achieved with a normal western diet ( I still eat everything I ate before, just less of it) and a decent exercise routine.
Im looking forward to my next Dr visit to be honest
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