Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:56 pm

warthog1 wrote:Wow, I didn't know it changed that much from fit to relatively unfit :o
I know nothing about power and training though :oops:

Well in my case it involved a lay off of 12 months from riding due to a confluence of factors, and probably 18-20 months away from any serious training, as well as being substantially heavier than when race fit.

It's an exercise physiology principle known as reversibility. IOW you will lose training induced adaptations if the training stimulus stops or is insufficient to maintain your current level.

For a trained racing athlete that trains all year but has peak fitness periods, then their threshold power will typically vary by ~ 10% from general to peak fitness during a season.
12 weeks after ceasing training, VO2max in highly trained endurance athletes can decline by 15-20%.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby warthog1 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:36 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
warthog1 wrote:Wow, I didn't know it changed that much from fit to relatively unfit :o
I know nothing about power and training though :oops:

Well in my case it involved a lay off of 12 months from riding due to a confluence of factors, and probably 18-20 months away from any serious training, as well as being substantially heavier than when race fit.

It's an exercise physiology principle known as reversibility. IOW you will lose training induced adaptations if the training stimulus stops or is insufficient to maintain your current level.

For a trained racing athlete that trains all year but has peak fitness periods, then their threshold power will typically vary by ~ 10% from general to peak fitness during a season.
12 weeks after ceasing training, VO2max in highly trained endurance athletes can decline by 15-20%.



thanks :)
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby sb944 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:58 pm

This is sort of a warning post, plus a question. Normal road tyres can get chewed up pretty quickly by these trainers, because the heat builds up a lot more than on the road. So figure in at least a trainer specific tyre too into the cost if you are aiming to ride it fairly hard.

My question is, how do you guys counter this problem. The projected solution is to get a cheap rear wheel, 10sp cassette, put on a trainer tyre, and swap wheels for road and trainer rides. Is that the best idea, or am I missing something more obvious?
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby _mike_ » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:51 pm

jgon286 wrote:I bought one last year at the same time as my next door neighbour. Both Jet Black Trainers. He got the fluid and I got the mag. Well, mine's been sent back after some god-awful grinding sound started up at the beginning of a session. Anyways, I borrowed his fluid and had a go just this evening- as it turns out while pouring outside in this terrible Sydney weather.

Well, what a difference! The fluid trainer's so much harder! I usually use an IPhone app that sets gears, cadence and such. Where I normally can set a good average speed and distance, I could only do a fraction of that tonight. So, over 1 hour or so instead of clearing 35 k's, I staggered over the line at 25ks.

Big difference. Maybe I'm just cheating myself by having the mag at a slightly lower resistance to the fluid (4/5), but on my road rides I can normally average 30kmh over 40 kms and 27 kmh at 80kms. Tonight it was at 22kmh. Much harder all round.

As the old Cadbury guy always asked, 'Why is this so?'


Bought a Jet black Mag pro also. First stand up sprint it self destructed like yours. Exchanged it for the Z1 with the quick release. MUCH better unit. I really think it could benefit from a heavier flywheel. Trainer is much harder than the road. Holding 35km/hr on flat ground/neutral wind on the road feels like 29-30km/hr on the trainer. Though I can sprint to max 63km/hr on the trainer but on the road (turn around/repeat) 50km/hr so doesnt seem too realistic, but performs its intended dutie fine. Hate using it though and its sat unused for 3months (good weather)
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Philipthelam » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:28 pm

_mike_ wrote:
jgon286 wrote:I bought one last year at the same time as my next door neighbour. Both Jet Black Trainers. He got the fluid and I got the mag. Well, mine's been sent back after some god-awful grinding sound started up at the beginning of a session. Anyways, I borrowed his fluid and had a go just this evening- as it turns out while pouring outside in this terrible Sydney weather.

Well, what a difference! The fluid trainer's so much harder! I usually use an IPhone app that sets gears, cadence and such. Where I normally can set a good average speed and distance, I could only do a fraction of that tonight. So, over 1 hour or so instead of clearing 35 k's, I staggered over the line at 25ks.

Big difference. Maybe I'm just cheating myself by having the mag at a slightly lower resistance to the fluid (4/5), but on my road rides I can normally average 30kmh over 40 kms and 27 kmh at 80kms. Tonight it was at 22kmh. Much harder all round.

As the old Cadbury guy always asked, 'Why is this so?'


Bought a Jet black Mag pro also. First stand up sprint it self destructed like yours. Exchanged it for the Z1 with the quick release. MUCH better unit. I really think it could benefit from a heavier flywheel. Trainer is much harder than the road. Holding 35km/hr on flat ground/neutral wind on the road feels like 29-30km/hr on the trainer. Though I can sprint to max 63km/hr on the trainer but on the road (turn around/repeat) 50km/hr so doesnt seem too realistic, but performs its intended dutie fine. Hate using it though and its sat unused for 3months (good weather)


Are you referring to the Jetblack M1 pro trainer? this one http://www.cellbikes.com.au/JetBlack-M1 ... gory=12719
I was thinking of buying it once it gets back in stock, but if it has problems...
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby drumondo » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:21 am

99 Bike is current having a sale on Jet Black trainers, picked up a fluid unit on Saturday for $259.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby DoogleDave » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:15 am

I bought mine from The Melb Bicycle Centre in Prahran

They currently have them for $229
http://www.bikes.com.au/p/1102912/2013-jetblack-z1-fluid-hydrogel-trainer.html

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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:27 am

sb944 wrote:This is sort of a warning post, plus a question. Normal road tyres can get chewed up pretty quickly by these trainers, because the heat builds up a lot more than on the road. So figure in at least a trainer specific tyre too into the cost if you are aiming to ride it fairly hard.

My question is, how do you guys counter this problem. The projected solution is to get a cheap rear wheel, 10sp cassette, put on a trainer tyre, and swap wheels for road and trainer rides. Is that the best idea, or am I missing something more obvious?

Some trainer rollers are better than others when it comes to tyre wear/destruction. I just use old tyres and that works fine for me on my Computrainer but a lot of people use a trainer specific tyre - just don't ride those tyres on the road. The characteristics that make them hardy on the trainer also make them slippery on the road.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:23 am

Rock and Roll trainer vs stationary trainer with power? Alex, you have any "helpful suggestions"?
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby BrisVegas » Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:01 am

I just bought one of these last night. Got the Jet Black Z1 fluid. $249 at pushys with free shipping. bikes.com.au was $229 and free shipping too, but i needed to use Amex, which they don't take.

Hoping to use it to improve my cardio fitness. I make pretty decent power for short periods of time, but struggle to sustain higher speeds on the flat, even in a bunch. Just got a Garmin with heart rate monitor too, so will need to work out what heart rate % to aim for etc. etc..
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby _mike_ » Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:09 am

Philipthelam wrote:
_mike_ wrote:
jgon286 wrote:I bought one last year at the same time as my next door neighbour. Both Jet Black Trainers. He got the fluid and I got the mag. Well, mine's been sent back after some god-awful grinding sound started up at the beginning of a session. Anyways, I borrowed his fluid and had a go just this evening- as it turns out while pouring outside in this terrible Sydney weather.

Well, what a difference! The fluid trainer's so much harder! I usually use an IPhone app that sets gears, cadence and such. Where I normally can set a good average speed and distance, I could only do a fraction of that tonight. So, over 1 hour or so instead of clearing 35 k's, I staggered over the line at 25ks.

Big difference. Maybe I'm just cheating myself by having the mag at a slightly lower resistance to the fluid (4/5), but on my road rides I can normally average 30kmh over 40 kms and 27 kmh at 80kms. Tonight it was at 22kmh. Much harder all round.

As the old Cadbury guy always asked, 'Why is this so?'


Bought a Jet black Mag pro also. First stand up sprint it self destructed like yours. Exchanged it for the Z1 with the quick release. MUCH better unit. I really think it could benefit from a heavier flywheel. Trainer is much harder than the road. Holding 35km/hr on flat ground/neutral wind on the road feels like 29-30km/hr on the trainer. Though I can sprint to max 63km/hr on the trainer but on the road (turn around/repeat) 50km/hr so doesnt seem too realistic, but performs its intended dutie fine. Hate using it though and its sat unused for 3months (good weather)


Are you referring to the Jetblack M1 pro trainer? this one http://www.cellbikes.com.au/JetBlack-M1 ... gory=12719
I was thinking of buying it once it gets back in stock, but if it has problems...


Yes the m1 pro. The z1 is a much better unit. If you call cell bikes they'll match bikes.com.au price. Paid mine $229 shipped
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:57 pm

Xplora wrote:Rock and Roll trainer vs stationary trainer with power? Alex, you have any "helpful suggestions"?

Do you mean the Kurt Kinetic trainers?

Go with the Road Machine over the R&R.

As for power measurement / reporting, well like I've said a couple of times, sky's the limit with this stuff.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:39 pm

I guess the question is more "is it worth putting the money into the power on the trainer this year, or waiting 12-18 months before you can afford to put an SRM crank on your bike"? We'll assume power is a good idea, but is 200 bucks for the power on the Kurt Kinetic worth the investment?
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Philipthelam » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:08 pm

_mike wrote:
Yes the m1 pro. The z1 is a much better unit. If you call cell bikes they'll match bikes.com.au price. Paid mine $229 shipped


The z1 is too expensive for me... in that case has anyone tried the Elite SuperCrono Mag elastogel trainer?

I can't seem to find any info on it online
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:08 pm

Xplora wrote:I guess the question is more "is it worth putting the money into the power on the trainer this year, or waiting 12-18 months before you can afford to put an SRM crank on your bike"? We'll assume power is a good idea, but is 200 bucks for the power on the Kurt Kinetic worth the investment?

I don't understand - what is the $200 buying?
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:11 pm

Trainers chew tyres, require too much downward push on the pedals compared to riding on the road, are expensive, and drive you mad after about 20 minutes because even the best of them dont feel anything like riding a bike. I hate them with a vengeance. Id rather ride in the rain than go on one.
Building your own ergo is pretty simple and the road feel is brilliant. For time challenged people 30- 60 minutes on an ergo is a fantastic workout, often superior to what you can get fighting traffic and stopping at all the red lights. Rain hail or shine the beast is waiting in the garage. Best kept training secret of many Pro cyclists. That and a derny : )
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:14 pm

Hard to link here but everestsports.com.au has a hr strap and power gauge for 200 with app. I think it's a power meter you can calibrate?
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby ray » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:04 pm

You mean the Kinetic inride http://www.kurtkinetic.com/kinetic-inri ... -l-en.html ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. All errors due to fat fingers and autocorrect.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby jgon286 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:43 pm

Philipthelam wrote:
Are you referring to the Jetblack M1 pro trainer? this one http://www.cellbikes.com.au/JetBlack-M1 ... gory=12719
I was thinking of buying it once it gets back in stock, but if it has problems...


Your link doesn't work, but it's easy enough to see which one it is. It's the M1 Pro.

Interestingly, cellbikes just emailed me saying JetBlack's repaired it. So it will be interesting to see how it goes when I get it back.

Can't fault the service at Cell. They guy I've been emailing has been pretty good.

As far as use, I try and get on it once a week and do a 1 to 1 1/2 hour session. That's enough to keep the frequency up. Two commutes during the week satisfies the cravings.

Interesting discussion on tyre wear. I just use the one wheel for the trainer and the road. I figure if you're supposed to change chain and cassette together then how does it work when you use two different cassettes? I'd much rather just buy a new tyre when the rear wears out earlier.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby jgon286 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:54 pm

_mike_ wrote:
Bought a Jet black Mag pro also. First stand up sprint it self destructed like yours. Exchanged it for the Z1 with the quick release. MUCH better unit. I really think it could benefit from a heavier flywheel. Trainer is much harder than the road. Holding 35km/hr on flat ground/neutral wind on the road feels like 29-30km/hr on the trainer. Though I can sprint to max 63km/hr on the trainer but on the road (turn around/repeat) 50km/hr so doesnt seem too realistic, but performs its intended dutie fine. Hate using it though and its sat unused for 3months (good weather)


My incident was 10 minutes in after a 5 minute warm up. Holding 80rpm it just went crunch! So something must have just failed on it. I wasn't even on the smaller cogs yet!

I had been trying to get a good balance of resistance on the trainer to simulate the road. This included reducing the base cadence to 80rpm from 90rpm and then bringing the resistance up to 4/5. The trainer app then brings the stages up to medium and large inclines which feels about right for the perceived intensity, not speed. A the smallest cog it feels like a 8-10 degree incline. But it's all subjective anyway, right?

I would always prefer to go outside than in for rides, but it's a good feeling to be on the trainer when it's bucketing down outside knowing that you're still doing good work for yourself. On that, does anyone have any links to longer youtube clips that are motivational for cycling? The shirt ones just distract me having to scroll, pick, play, repeat...
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:35 am

Derny Driver wrote:Trainers chew tyres, require too much downward push on the pedals compared to riding on the road, are expensive, and drive you mad after about 20 minutes because even the best of them dont feel anything like riding a bike. I hate them with a vengeance. Id rather ride in the rain than go on one.

Trainers have progressed a bit in recent times DD. Some trainers still exhibit the characteristics you speak of and I think are perhaps only good for being a spare bike stand, but some units now available are far better to ride on.

As far as being expensive, well like bicycles, you tend to get what you pay for.

Some people really enjoy the trainer, and some will use it in preference to poor weather. Where I live, riding in the rain just adds to the danger factor due to the type of roads we have (potholes, oil), the amount of puncture causing road debris that rain brings back to the surface, and the traffic. I've coached several athletes who prefer the trainer at times and one happily did 3-4 hour (quality) sessions. This is more typical of northern hemisphere clients though who are often snowed in for months at a time.

This is the unit I used during my rehab:

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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:44 am

Xplora wrote:Hard to link here but everestsports.com.au has a hr strap and power gauge for 200 with app. I think it's a power meter you can calibrate?

It's not a power meter. It's a speedometer that converts the speed reading to a power number based on a formula.

It might work OK but I can't comment on its consistency nor accuracy. I'd put it in the basket of devices designed to help entertain you while on the trainer, which might be a good investment if it means you do more work than you otherwise might have. Trainers that rely on a roller pressing against a tyre are automatically subject to variability in rolling resistance depending on how hard the roller is pressed against the tyre, tyre pressure, type of tyre, how warm the tyre gets etc.

If you are looking to have a power meter set up that doesn't cost the earth, then keep eyes open for old "wired" model Powertaps that are working.
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby Xplora » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:07 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Xplora wrote:Hard to link here but everestsports.com.au has a hr strap and power gauge for 200 with app. I think it's a power meter you can calibrate?

It's not a power meter. It's a speedometer that converts the speed reading to a power number based on a formula.

Yeah that's what I suspected. Can't really see the point in spending the money on that, might as well just invest in a Garmin HR strap and cadence sensor, at least it works with your GPS sensor!
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby BrisVegas » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:47 pm

my Jet Black Z1 just turned up at work! That was quick, considering I only placed the order late Sunday night.

Well done pushys. 8)
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Re: Indoor trainer just for bad weather?

Postby sb944 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:26 pm

After a bunch of googling, I decided to get a trainer, and move a big chunk of training to it. I got a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine, spare wheel, trainer tyres and ant+ usb.

For the trainer, it seemed resistance is what cheaper models lack, which means you'll go past it's maximum power in short bursts quite easily. Even the well respected Cycleops Fluid 2 can be pushed past that point apparently. The Road Machine and Cycleops Fluid Pro have bigger flywheels and avoid that. If you really want a sprint, there is a Pro flywheel upgrade for the Road Machine, but I haven't read of people buying that.

To those asking about tyres, there are countless examples of people chewing through normal tyres, nearly no examples of people upset after buying a trainer tyre. I bought a spare wheel and cassette (old cassette will go on the trainer wheel), and will swap the road wheel with the trainer wheel when I use the trainer. Either way, I'd advise to add that to the cost of getting properly setup on a trainer, it seems like it will pay off in the long run if you continue to use the trainer.

Power. A quality unit will give predictable resistance at different speeds. So as long as the bike is in the trainer in the same position, and the tyre is the same pressure, you should be able to accurately estimate your power efforts. Another alternative to that mentioned above is a subscription to trainerroad.com and get the ant+ stick. That will then show you current power statistics on your laptop, which is what I'm going to try. It works for most trainers. If the website doesn't offer anything else I care for, I'll probably just write my own power app for windows for the road machine, if there isn't already a freebie. This may not be 100% useful for use on the road or comparing with others, but it will help your current training, as you can get your FTP tested often, and train using that on the trainer.

Now it's just the usual wait from UK hopefully.
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