Pedestrian red lights

[Ross]

Is it actually illegal to walk across the road when there is a red pedestrian light? I see heaps of pedestrians do it, I was the only one out of fifteen people to actually wait for the green light the other day (not saying I'm Mr Goody Two Shoes, I have walked against the red before but trying not to do it these days).

[trailgumby]

Not sure where to look for the regs, but my understanding is that you can cross where you like (safely) if you are further than 25m from a marked pedestrian crossing. If you are within 25m you are obliged to use the marked crossing, and in accordance with the lights if any.

Apparently yes you can be fined for crossing against the lights. There have been "blitzes" at various times where people have been fined ~$130 around North Sydney and the Sydney CBD ... after a couple of people were knocked down.

Like you I'm far from perfect with following the rules

[find_bruce]

Yep road rule 231. Of course if it bothers you, walk 20 meters up the road & cross whenever you like - road rule 234.

edit you overstated the fine a bit TG. In NSW while the maximum is $2,200 - the "on the spot fine" is only $66, same as for cyclists

[KonaCommuter]

"Jay Walking" was originally an insult from US motoring lobbies. A Jay being a slow witted person from a rural background. It was a successful attempt to portray people who crossed the road like they've done since roads were made, i.e. thousands of years, as being slow witted. Or so I've been led to believe.

So to cop to a "Jay Walking" charge is an acknowledgement of the motor vehicles supremacy on the public right of way that is known as a road.

[il padrone]

"Jay Walking" was originally an insult from US motoring lobbies. A Jay being a slow witted person from a rural background.

Hi there, I'm from the country. My name is Jay .

[eeksll]

Yep road rule 231. Of course if it bothers you, walk 20 meters up the road & cross whenever you like - road rule 234.

edit you overstated the fine a bit TG. In NSW while the maximum is $2,200 - the "on the spot fine" is only $66, same as for cyclists

$60 victims of crime levy and you get your $130-ish.

yes you can get fined for it, one mate got told he would get fined but just got a warning letter in the mail, another actually got the fine.

[find_bruce]

Yep road rule 231. Of course if it bothers you, walk 20 meters up the road & cross whenever you like - road rule 234.

edit you overstated the fine a bit TG. In NSW while the maximum is $2,200 - the "on the spot fine" is only $66, same as for cyclists

$60 victims of crime levy and you get your $130-ish.

yes you can get fined for it, one mate got told he would get fined but just got a warning letter in the mail, another actually got the fine.

If you know anyone who has been told to pay the victims of crime levy for a penalty notice, I would be very interested to hear about it, because the levy is only payable on conviction by a court (s 78 Victims Support and Rehabilitation Act 1996)

[ILMB]

Beautiful photo IP

[Mulger bill]

Yep road rule 231. Of course if it bothers you, walk 20 meters up the road & cross whenever you like - road rule 234.

edit you overstated the fine a bit TG. In NSW while the maximum is $2,200 - the "on the spot fine" is only $66, same as for cyclists

$60 victims of crime levy and you get your $130-ish.

yes you can get fined for it, one mate got told he would get fined but just got a warning letter in the mail, another actually got the fine.

If you know anyone who has been told to pay the victims of crime levy for a penalty notice, I would be very interested to hear about it, because the levy is only payable on conviction by a court (s 78 Victims Support and Rehabilitation Act 1996)

I would not be surprised if this happens regularly. Add the levy and pocket the cash if people pay, apologise and withdraw if they jack up.
People are too trusting of officialdom at times

[il padrone]

Beautiful photo IP

Thanks. I didn't take it though, just a googled photo. No blue jays in Australia

[Summernight]

Is it the same when the pedestrian light hasn't been triggered for the light sequence but the traffic light itself (for the same direction as the ped) is green?

Obviously where there is no pedestrian light the ped walks on the corresponding traffic green, but are they still liable for the possible fine if they are obeying the correct traffic lights, just didn't press the ped button in time to get the green man with the green light?

[il padrone]

Yes.

Rule 231 is pretty clear. Red means stop, unless you've already started walking on a green.

231 Crossing a road at pedestrian lights

....(2) If the pedestrian lights show a red pedestrian light and the pedestrian has not already started crossing the intersection or road, the pedestrian must not start to cross until the pedestrian lights change to green.

[Summernight]

Thank you.

[wellington_street]

IMO, the law should be changed so that a Red Man = "Give way to vehicles" at the very least.

And when will road authorities cease treating pedestrians (and cyclists using paths!) by forcing them to press the button to trigger a 6-10 gap every few minutes to cross the road? It's a disgrace that the lights will go green but if you didn't reach the button 10 seconds before they do you then have to wait the full cycle again. It should trigger every time, without the need to press it, especially when there's no conflicting traffic movements.

[Mulger bill]

IMO, the law should be changed so that a Red Man = "Give way to vehicles" at the very least.

That popping noise you just heard was a vein in 'Arold Scrulooses neck.

And when will road authorities cease treating pedestrians (and cyclists using paths!) by forcing them to press the button to trigger a 6-10 gap every few minutes to cross the road? It's a disgrace that the lights will go green but if you didn't reach the button 10 seconds before they do you then have to wait the full cycle again. It should trigger every time, without the need to press it, especially when there's no conflicting traffic movements.

Amen to that. Walked up to a set of lights with me daughter today. Pressed the button as the cross light went amber. No green man We made a risk assessment and became outlaws
Can't find me hair shirt, anybody willing to slip theirs off for just a little while?

[high_tea]

IMO, the law should be changed so that a Red Man = "Give way to vehicles" at the very least.

And when will road authorities cease treating pedestrians (and cyclists using paths!) by forcing them to press the button to trigger a 6-10 gap every few minutes to cross the road? It's a disgrace that the lights will go green but if you didn't reach the button 10 seconds before they do you then have to wait the full cycle again. It should trigger every time, without the need to press it, especially when there's no conflicting traffic movements.

This will not happen.
One, because it will not help traffic congestion.
Two, because there is a small chance it will make traffic congestion worse.

This reflects on the state of transport policy, not the idea. The idea seems fine to me.

[il padrone]

IMO, the law should be changed so that a Red Man = "Give way to vehicles" at the very least.

And when will road authorities cease treating pedestrians (and cyclists using paths!) by forcing them to press the button to trigger a 6-10 gap every few minutes to cross the road? It's a disgrace that the lights will go green but if you didn't reach the button 10 seconds before they do you then have to wait the full cycle again. It should trigger every time, without the need to press it, especially when there's no conflicting traffic movements.

This will not happen.
One, because it will not help traffic congestion.
Two, because there is a small chance it will make traffic congestion worse.

This reflects on the state of transport policy, not the idea. The idea seems fine to me.

It is my understanding that they have dealt with this issue in the Netherlands by setting shorter traffic light cycle times - down to as little as 15-20 seconds. This makes walking and cycling more advantageous in the road environment. This further encourages people to use bikes, walking and PT to get about. This reduces traffic congestion.

They also have pedestrian and cycle crossings that respond very quickly to a pressed button - again as little as 5-10 seconds. This is at all crossings, not just busy inner city locations. This reduces congestion.

Even this:


This reduces congestion.

Bing!

[high_tea]

One tiny point: it gets people to where they're going, efficiently and safely. This is the point of a transport policy, not reducing traffic congestion. Sorry, pet hate of mine.

[human909]

One tiny point: it gets people to where they're going, efficiently and safely. This is the point of a transport policy, not reducing traffic congestion. Sorry, pet hate of mine.

Are you speaking about how it is or how it should be?

[wurtulla wabbit]

a QLDcop at the weekend, he was to book cyclists not "signaling" when riding.
Place must have had 4 trillion bikes in it !

He was riding a quad bike through mooloolabah during the triathlon this weekend...

Only in America ? Pffft, only in Australia !

[high_tea]

One tiny point: it gets people to where they're going, efficiently and safely. This is the point of a transport policy, not reducing traffic congestion. Sorry, pet hate of mine.

Are you speaking about how it is or how it should be?

Both. I contend that it is largely about traffic congestion here in Australia, and that it should not be. I was, you know, contrasting the two. It's a narrow point about a specific policy area that I've managed to make modulo bleating about freedom. I'm quite pleased about that. I wouldn't want to go being a hypocrite or anything, would I?

PS I am wearing Lycra as I post this. For the saddle sores. And a helmet, just in case I hit my head as I roll about laughing. You can't be too careful.

EDIT: fewer commas.

[il padrone]

One tiny point: it gets people to where they're going, efficiently and safely. This is the point of a transport policy, not reducing traffic congestion. Sorry, pet hate of mine.

Moving more people, more safely, efficiently and timely - surely the definition of a real reduction to congestion.

I don't think about congestion solely in terms of cars parked on the freeway, or log-jamming the CBD streets. Freeing up capacity will involve less cars on the streets, but probably in less space and more space for other transport modes.

[Ross]

They also have pedestrian and cycle crossings that respond very quickly to a pressed button - again as little as 5-10 seconds. This is at all crossings, not just busy inner city locations. This reduces congestion.

Even this:


This reduces congestion.

Bing!

Looks like a nightmare to me. Riders coming from all directions and cutting in front of each other without signalling. I would personally avoid that intersection like the plague.

[sogood]

Looks like a nightmare to me. Riders coming from all directions and cutting in front of each other without signalling. I would personally avoid that intersection like the plague.

It's all a question of expectation isn't it? We've all seen those intersection scenes from the busiest of Far East/Indian subcontinent cities. The fact that everyone expected it and adjust accordingly, there's little trouble. However, when someone goes beyond the expectation of others, accidents happen. Similar to our environment where rules come foremost. When people go beyond those stated traffic rules and behave unexpectedly, accidents happen. You just need to adjust and behave like a Roman when in Rome.

[Summernight]

They have a 'simultaneous green junction' type situation at the corner of Flinders Street and Elizabeth Street in Melbourne (right outside the Flinders Street Station) for pedestrians. It is a T-intersection for cars with a tram stop in the middle on the Elizabeth side. The whole intersection is red lighted for cars and peds go everywhere. It works.

They have also implemented another one of these near AAMI park. Pedestrians have no problems. I don't see why there would be a difference with bicycles if everyone is aware and no-one is hooning.

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