Cracked brand new bike!

[BianchiCam]

Maybe a noobie question.
Did the bike shop not 'fit' the bike to your sizing before heading off? If they did why change the seat height?

My lbs explained to me not to touch anything without a torque wrench.

Hope you get the outcome you want.

Cam

[master6]

Get a real bike with a horizontal top tube.

[birdbrain]

Dan_1983 wrote:
Hi all,

I took the plunge and bought a new Giant Defy Advanced 2 on Saturday from an authorised dealer. While adjusting the seat to a lower position I noticed a crack in the lower back part of the frame (not seat post). Bike had not been riden more than a couple of hundred metres down the road.

Took it back to the dealer today and the store owner is claiming that the frame can crack if the nuts are not properly tightened, or if the seat is pushed down too far without the bottom of the post being sawn off, and if this is the case it is not covered by warranty. I have read the warranty and there is nothing in the manual about potentially cracking the frame from adjusting the seat! The only mention is that it can affect your safety.

I am obviously very dissapointed with this, the sales guy made no mention of this, who in their right mind would buy a bike if the sales person made note of how the frame could crack with a seat adjustment.

I would appreciate any help as to where you think i stand,

cheers

The store owners comments are fair enough AFAIC but it possibly boils down to whether there was a written warning about the seatpost with the purchase and whether you were negligent when you adjusted the position of it.
I would contact Giant and get a ruling from them.

[tallywhacker]

Get a real bike with a horizontal top tube.

and made of steel

[dan_1983m]

thanks for the help chaps, i will fight this one as I agree with what has been said about not using a torque screwdriver at 5NM (My fault) but no where in the giant manual or from the shop owners does it mention this may crack the frame or the seatpost....

[London Boy]

It does say on the seatpost clamp "5Nm Max". Can't be more clearer than that.

Um, allthat says it you should not tighten the seat post bolt more than 5Nm. Does it specify a minimum? The issue does not appear to be that the bolt was over-tightened, but that the post went too far down into the seat tube.

[toolonglegs]

Poor workmanship is clearly not covered in any warranty... if you don't know what you are doing you shouldn't touch it.
It is a shame the OP didn't say the seat post slipped on his first ride and he hadn't touched it after leaving the shop... but if I understand right the OP adjusted the saddle height, didn't do the post up tight enough, it slipped down on a ride and damaged the frame?.
Is so you may have to fight it out because I wouldn't want to replace a frame that someone had damaged by not knowing what they were doing.

[sogood]

...adjusted the saddle height, didn't do the post up tight enough, it slipped down on a ride and damaged the frame?

This would make sense for the assumed location of damage (still waiting for a photo). I can't imagine how hand pressure from saddle height adjustments can crack the CF seat tube, certainly not without hearing and feeling it.

[dan_1983m]

...adjusted the saddle height, didn't do the post up tight enough, it slipped down on a ride and damaged the frame?

This would make sense for the assumed location of damage (still waiting for a photo). I can't imagine how hand pressure from saddle height adjustments can crack the CF seat tube, certainly not without hearing and feeling it.

will post one tomorrow, had to leave perth for a couple of days for work

[dan_1983m]

Poor workmanship is clearly not covered in any warranty... if you don't know what you are doing you shouldn't touch it.
It is a shame the OP didn't say the seat post slipped on his first ride and he hadn't touched it after leaving the shop... but if I understand right the OP adjusted the saddle height, didn't do the post up tight enough, it slipped down on a ride and damaged the frame?.
Is so you may have to fight it out because I wouldn't want to replace a frame that someone had damaged by not knowing what they were doing.

Didnt get a chance to ride it after adjusting the seat, was trying to lower the seat height, in retrospect it wouldnt go down (presumambly because seat post was too long), so I did put push the seat to try to lower it, but didnt get a chance to ride it. ie seat not going down, me pushing on seat with body weight to try to get post to slide down

[sogood]

...seat not going down, me pushing on seat with body weight to try to get post to slide down

That force can vary a lot I guess.

Rule 1: Never force anything. If force is required, it's not done properly.

[toolonglegs]

Just pushing it down with body weight... seems a bit extreme but I suppose it depends on the body weight and effort used... pretty bad luck though!.
The question begs to be asked... surely there a bit of latitude on the post ( I had to cut a cannondale one once for a shorter lady... although it turned out the measurements she gave me were wrong ) ... why did it need to go down so far?... unless you frame was too big.

[InTheWoods]

If you didn't get a Giant Bicycle Owner's Manual with the bike then that would help your cause. My giant defy advanced came with a manual.

Page 10

re-tighten the seat post clamp to the recommended torque (appendix D)

Fail.

Page 11

Always tighten fasteners to the correct torque

Fail.

Page 12

A loose saddle clamp or seat post binder can cause damage to the seat post

Fail.

Page 36 Appendix D

Always use a correclty calibrated torque wrench to tighten critical fasteners on your bike ... Although all fasteners on a bicycle are important, pay special attention to applying the correct torque to the following critical fasteners: #3 seat post clamp ...

Fail.

Page 37

Seatpost binder bolt M4 1.9-3.9Nm

(max 5.0Nm marked on post itself)
What torque did you use, or did you just take a guess?
Fail.

Page 41 Giant Warranty

Exclusions ... Damage caused by failing to follow the owner's manual

Oops.

I also got manuals for all the components. This includes the Vector Seatpost Guide. Not sure if the shop gave you this or not.

If the saddle cannot be lowered far enough for proper fit because the seatpost meets the seattube curve inside the frame, the seatpost must be cut.

Fail.

[paraphrase of a table]M size frame - minimum saddle height 71.5mm. If you need less than that, you need to cut it.

Fail.

WARNING - be slow and careful when inserting the seatpost into the seattube. Too much downward force may damage the frame and or the seatpost ... It will damage the frame if the seatpost reaches the seattube curve shape when riding the bike

Fail. This is clearly the one where you failed big time.

Having said that, why wasn't the seat post at the correct height anyway, didn't the shop do a bit of a bike fit and adjust it for you before you left the shop? If they left the saddle at the minimum which was still too high for you, then possibly you have the wrong frame size, but the shop should have set it at the right height and cut the post for you, so they should perhaps wear a portion of the blame for being lazy, if this was the case.

[Nobody]

Rule 1: Never force anything. If force is required, it's not done properly.

There's also that other rule which goes something like, "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer."

[Bob_TAS]

On second thoughts, after reading through this thread I don't think the ACCC can help you.

Maybe rejuvenate a nice steel frame and cut your losses?

[Nobody]

:shock: On second thoughts, after reading through this thread I don't think the ACCC can help you.

Maybe rejuvenate a nice steel frame and cut your losses?

Or just speed up the whole process by getting it repaired yourself.

[toolonglegs]

:shock: On second thoughts, after reading through this thread I don't think the ACCC can help you.

Maybe rejuvenate a nice steel frame and cut your losses?

Or just speed up the whole process by getting it repaired yourself.

yes, unless the op REALLY forced it, I can't seeing it being much more than a carbon wrap on the down tube, shouldn't be too difficult.

[Bob_TAS]

:shock: On second thoughts, after reading through this thread I don't think the ACCC can help you.

Maybe rejuvenate a nice steel frame and cut your losses?

Or just speed up the whole process by getting it repaired yourself.

True that. My experience with carbon is limited to forks and posts, so may be a little blind to that option

[sogood]

Rule 1: Never force anything. If force is required, it's not done properly.

There's also that other rule which goes something like, "If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer."

Yeah, I adhered to "that other rule" until one day my thumb got flattened. It's now a rule that's only judiciously applied.

[sogood]

Or just speed up the whole process by getting it repaired yourself.

Maybe Giant will be generous to a first time buyer. Fingers crossed on the ruling and a lesson learnt.

[dan_1983m]

cheers guys will see how it goes

[AUbicycles]

Good luck - it is unfortunate and the shop should have helped set the right height. As suggested, this can be repaired though see what leniency you get from the store and from Giant.

[kukamunga]

If you didn't get a Giant Bicycle Owner's Manual with the bike then that would help your cause........I also got manuals for all the components. This includes the Vector Seatpost Guide. Not sure if the shop gave you this or not.......

Was this the case? I know a few bike shops that are a bit slack at passing on all relevant manuals to customers

As a recent Head Mechanic at 99Bikes, myself and the shop had an almost foolproof system of filing ALL provided manuals and spare bits and bobs AS PROVIDED BY THE SUPPLIER (even the QR skewer instructions*) into a Delivery Envelope with Bike Model, Serial Number, completed tick-the-boxes Checklist, and Bike Builders name all printed clearly on the front

If this was done by the OP's LBS, and the manuals clearly state what "InTheWoods" states above, then:

Having said that, why wasn't the seat post at the correct height anyway, didn't the shop do a bit of a bike fit and adjust it for you before you left the shop? If they left the saddle at the minimum which was still too high for you, then possibly you have the wrong frame size, but the shop should have set it at the right height and cut the post for you, so they should perhaps wear a portion of the blame for being lazy, if this was the case.

+1.

(* You'll be surprised at how many new bike customers DO NOT know how to use QR skewers, and come back with simple problems relating to this - I can understand why front forks have "lawyers tips" on them)

[Derny Driver]

Dan there is a solution.
Ok so you made a mistake, youve admitted that. These things happen.
First thing to do is to realise that the LBS who sold you the bike dont give a rats about your problem. They are too busy to have time to chase this up for you. So what you have to do is go straight to Giant Australia with a letter, email, phonecall or all 3. GIANT is the largest bicycle manufacturer in the world and they value their reputation. These frames come out of Taiwan at a cost to Giant of probably less than a hundred bucks. Just ask Giant Australia for a new frame and they will give you one. Get a friend or bike shop to transfer all the running gear onto the new frame.
In your letter, make the following points
Explain what happened, admit your mistake and tell them that you are not seeking a warranty replacement. Ask them if they could please send you a new frame if you send the cracked one back to them. This is preferable to having a cracked or repaired frame floating around on the market or on the road bringing bad kudos to the Giant brand and highlighting the design flaw which allowed this to happen. Tell them that all your friends, bike club members and 20,000 people on the BNA forum are horrified that such simple mistake could destroy a Giant frame and want to see whether Giant will be generous and fix the problem or not.
Think about it Dan. Will the world's biggest bike frame manufacturer want the bad press for the sake of a frame which will cost them virtually nothing to replace?

I myself bought a second hand Malvern Star C6 on Ebay, checked it when I picked it up, paid and took it home to find the frame was cracked. Lifetime frame warrany for the original owner, but not for me. I had the same dilemma. Repair it? Keep riding it? LBS / MS dealers didnt want to know but a friend told me to ring the MS head office in Melbourne. I wrote a nice email, got a phonecall the next day and they replaced it within a week. Old fashioned service. They were happy to get the cracked frame out of circulation. In return they now have a very loyal MS customer and I would buy the Australian product with their committment to customer service over overseas products any day. My nephew bought an expensive Cannondale frame from the UK, it has developed a problem, and he has nowhere to turn except to his wallet. You have GIANT Australia. Go straight to them.

[Nobody]

I myself bought a second hand Malvern Star C6 on Ebay, checked it when I picked it up, paid and took it home to find the frame was cracked...

No surprise there. I don't any bike stuff on eBay anymore.