How bright is to bright?

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How bright is to bright?

Postby PB12IN » Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:55 pm

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EXPOSURE-LIG ... 4d09b023f3

$705, but 2200 lumens for a bike light.
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by BNA » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:23 pm

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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby il padrone » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:23 pm

If that was a concentric lens, and being used on regular streets and country roads, I would describe this light as irresponsible. Observing some of the current crop of 1200-1600 lumen lights in use around the suburban streets, they are patently already a good deal brighter than any normal car headlight. Bumping them up by another 50% without any optical control will simply dazzle people.

Do you really want to dazzle the rider who is driving a 2T SUV in your direction ???


On dark bike paths they'll be lethal to oncoming fellow cyclists :evil:
Last edited by il padrone on Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby Nobody » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:49 pm

il padrone wrote:Do you really want to dazzle the river...
No, I wouldn't want to dazzle the river. People on the other side might get dazzled by the reflections. :mrgreen:
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby VRE » Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:12 pm

There's a group of cyclists who seem to ride west along the Dandenong Creek Trail every Saturday morning around 7am or just after. They have a habit of using lights that are fairly bright, which wouldn't normally be a problem, except that many of them have the lights angled too high. On many Saturday mornings I find myself riding in the opposite direction to them, as I'm heading for the The Basin to do some climbing. Yesterday, I had to raise one hand to shield my eyes, because the combined effect of their lights made it very difficult for me to see the path in front of me. So if any of you are reading this post, can you please consider adjusting the angle of your lights downward a bit?
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby eeksll » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:47 pm

Even a more "sensible" light e.g the old ayups (300 lumens) aimed at angle useful for the rider is going to dazzle-blind oncomers.

Really need those dynamo like lens, but even then, mount them on the handlebars or helmet ...
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby Comedian » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:03 am

I'm new to the ayup (40%brighter club) and I can't imagine why you would need more than this.

That's the other thing too.. I've had motorists hi beam me if they perceive your light to be too bright. 1600 lumen or not its am escalation war that can't be won.
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby NhiTrac » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:30 am

Comedian wrote:I'm new to the ayup (40%brighter club) and I can't imagine why you would need more than this.

That's the other thing too.. I've had motorists hi beam me if they perceive your light to be too bright. 1600 lumen or not its am escalation war that can't be won.


Saw your response in the Gallery thread so replying to both.

On my type of commute which half the year is before/after daylight, one set of Ayups doesn't throw enough usable light at where I want it to be, haven't measured it exactly. My problem with commuting on the shoulder of the motorway (about 32km each way) is that it's full of debris and rubbish that's flown off trucks and what have you. What i've experienced with one set of intermediate beams, the spot where my eyes need to focus on is just a few meters further than what the light can throw. However travelling at 30km/hr+ average and reaching up to 60km/hr in some sections, I have a very small window to react and avoid the debris.

Now with my second set of Ayups with narrow beams, this extends the distance at which I can spot the debris.
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby g-boaf » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:49 am

I came across 4 riders the other night going the other way. Combined they would have had about 6 lights and from a distance looked like some sort of truck coming towards me. Couldn't see a thing at all ahead of me. But you need those lights in really dark areas.
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby trailgumby » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:04 am

Depends on the circumstances.

In my experience, those with their own lights that are powerful enough to see by never complain about my ayups. I believe this is because their own irises are adjusted to their lights,so their is no dazzling by my lights.

The only whingers are those with idiotically inadequate or no lights. Complaining about my lights when you are a dark indeterminate barely detectable object heading in my direction on a possible collision course, well, i make no apology for reflexively giving you my headlight spot beam to work out what sort of threat you might be. Harden up and get some better lights you can see by you goose. :x

Ok, now that i have that frustration off my chest, the new generation of trail lights do require restraint in their use. The new MyTinySun Sport 2700x lights I'm about to write up part II of my review on at full beam are enough to fry cats and possums into immobility. You'll never outrun your lights, even at 60-70km/hr on a wet night.

However, these lights are so powerful that at the higher settings you will dazzle other users even when they do have decent lights of their own, for example car and truck drivers you might pull up behind at traffic lights with your light at handle bar height going straight in the back window. I'd never have on more than the minimum 300 lumen setting crossing the SHB cycleway.
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby trailgumby » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:10 am

Leaving those lights constantly on full power would result in putting other road users at risk, and owners need to start treating them like car headlights, that is making sure theyre aimed properly and dip the power for oncoming traffic.

To the OP: the MTS light mentioned above is cheaper st $649, has longer life at 3hrs at full power, better outpot at 2700 lumens measuted, and local warranty support
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby il padrone » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:46 am

trailgumby wrote:Depends on the circumstances.

In my experience, those with their own lights that are powerful enough to see by never complain about my ayups. I believe this is because their own irises are adjusted to their lights,so their is no dazzling by my lights.

Have a bit of a think about that and you'll realise that is not how it works. If you're still not convinced then shine your lights on a wall tonight to "adjust" your eyes. Then turn the bike right around and shine the lights at your face and see how good this has been to prevent you being dazzled.

:| :lol:
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby MattyK » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:57 am

If I find one of those approaching me on a bike track I'll be happy to assist the owner to dismount... Lumens are good, i love the ~7000 my car puts out, but uncontrolled lumens are bad.
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby Howzat » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:42 am

il padrone wrote:Bumping them up by another 50% without any optical control will simply dazzle people.

+1. Unfortunately "optical design" is harder than "winning the lumens war". More expensive too.
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby Comedian » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:45 am

Howzat wrote:
il padrone wrote:Bumping them up by another 50% without any optical control will simply dazzle people.

+1. Unfortunately "optical design" is harder than "winning the lumens war". More expensive too.


From some quarters we definitely have a quantity not quality race...
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby jacks1071 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:53 am

Really bright lights should be considered for off-road use only.

Lumens is a pretty terrible way to compare lights as it can be measured many different ways.

Ultimate brightness isn't always desirable, a light with a fairly low lumens maybe 300 with a well designed reflector is more than enough for road use.

If you blind the on-comming motorist he might crash into you.
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby il padrone » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:55 am

Howzat wrote:
il padrone wrote:Bumping them up by another 50% without any optical control will simply dazzle people.

+1. Unfortunately "optical design" is harder than "winning the lumens war". More expensive too.

Well some players have got the optics correct - most noticeably the Germans, where such concentric beam "possum-fryers" would be illegal on the roads.

Check out Busch & Muller, Phillips, AXA, Spanninga, Trelock, Supernova, and Schmidt for optically well-designed lights.
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby il padrone » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:31 am

jacks1071 wrote:Really bright lights should be considered for off-road use only.

Unfortunately MTB night-riding enthusiasts go and spend big-bucks on such lights, then they can't seem to be able to justify a second set - "Why can't I just use these really great lights on the roads?"

The bike-light arms race is getting to be pretty similar to the SUV arms race. Entitled superiority and power over-rides safety and common decency at every turn :roll:
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby trailgumby » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:55 am

il padrone wrote:
trailgumby wrote:Depends on the circumstances.

In my experience, those with their own lights that are powerful enough to see by never complain about my ayups. I believe this is because their own irises are adjusted to their lights,so their is no dazzling by my lights.

Have a bit of a think about that and you'll realise that is not how it works. If you're still not convinced then shine your lights on a wall tonight to "adjust" your eyes. Then turn the bike right around and shine the lights at your face and see how good this has been to prevent you being dazzled.

:| :lol:


Agree. But then, that's not what peeps with any brains do. :lol:

So tell me, how often do you look directly at oncoming car headlights? About as often as I do, I suspect, which is never. :wink:
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby trailgumby » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:00 pm

MattyK wrote:If I find one of those approaching me on a bike track I'll be happy to assist the owner to dismount... Lumens are good, i love the ~7000 my car puts out, but uncontrolled lumens are bad.


I agree there needs to be work in this area. Full flood spread is great for off-road use, but needs focus for on-road.

However, I'd be reluctant to give up my helmet spot. Being able to light up the interior of inattentive drivers' cabins has helped me avoid too many potential collisions to count.
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby il padrone » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:06 pm

trailgumby wrote:
il padrone wrote:Have a bit of a think about that and you'll realise that is not how it works. If you're still not convinced then shine your lights on a wall tonight to "adjust" your eyes. Then turn the bike right around and shine the lights at your face and see how good this has been to prevent you being dazzled.

:| :lol:


Agree. But then, that's not what peeps with any brains do. :lol:

So tell me, how often do you look directly at oncoming car headlights?

You are missing the point. I did not say "look at the lights", but rather "shine the lights at your face".

This is what is happening when a mega-lumens rider's lights are oncoming towards you. To deny that it dazzles other riders (especially on a darkened bike path), even other drivers, is ludicrous.
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby Comedian » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:14 pm

trailgumby wrote:So tell me, how often do you look directly at oncoming car headlights? About as often as I do, I suspect, which is never. :wink:

Having said that... In a car you can look up or to the side.. but on a bicycle our focus does have to be down onto the road in front of us - where it has to be. This brings our eyes naturally to other passing bike traffic - particularly on narrow non-segregated paths (which are the main type on my commute).
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:33 pm

trailgumby wrote:Depends on the circumstances.

In my experience, those with their own lights that are powerful enough to see by never complain about my ayups. I believe this is because their own irises are adjusted to their lights,so their is no dazzling by my lights.

The only whingers are those with idiotically inadequate or no lights. Complaining about my lights when you are a dark indeterminate barely detectable object heading in my direction on a possible collision course, well, i make no apology for reflexively giving you my headlight spot beam to work out what sort of threat you might be. Harden up and get some better lights you can see by you goose. :x
...
.


BS. I have more than adequate lighting for my speeds and beyond - they do the job with capacity to spare in all circumstances except when some bloke with his bank of eight are set to impress. They are not budget either. Yet I also get dazzled during the winter months when I leave in the dark.

I hardly think it is incumbent on me to purchase increasingly brighter lights because others keep upping theirs. Or are you volunteering to fund me some brighter lights?

I think Dr Freud needs to be consulted frankly.
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:47 pm

I have a lenser P7 and its a single Cree LED.
It'll comfortably light up the whole street and the house at the end of the road which is easily 300m away !
There is a handlebar mount for this and the torch isn't heavy but its way way too bright to be used on road.
The beam has two levels and also has a beam shaping(wider/narrower) function but I still feel it would be over kill.
I use a knog but not bright enough for night riding as a light but plenty ok for safety IMO.
Light scatter and direction is the biggest problem I've had with people's lights whether it be on a car or whatever.
HID kits are great as they have less scatter but alignment and proper setup is key, as is any lighting for comfort and safety of other road users.
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby il padrone » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:07 pm

From the point of view of other road users this:

(Supernova E3 Triple - three LEDS, concentric focus)
Image


....is much worse (more dazzling) than this:

(B&M IQ Luxos U - LED aimed vertically with indirect optics)
Image


As a clue, look at the illumination of the trees. For road riding it really is pointless to be lighting up the trees above - does nothing to help you see the road better.
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Re: How bright is to bright?

Postby Comedian » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:22 pm

il padrone wrote:From the point of view of other road users this:

(Supernova E3 Triple - three LEDS, concentric focus)
Image


....is much worse (more dazzling) than this:

(B&M IQ Luxos U - LED aimed vertically with indirect optics)
Image


As a clue, look at the illumination of the trees. For road riding it really is pointless to be lighting up the trees above - does nothing to help you see the road better.

Two words for you

DROP BEARS.

:mrgreen:

Image
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